Running Back

[italianjoker]

this thread is not for all the "lollipop and candy cane" fans. if you can not discuss the team, go away.


i have seen Jamal's dance for too long. it is time for him to get benched. sure, the play calls of constantly running between Ogden and Edwin is partially to blame, but this guy runs like a fragile sissy. he does not hit a single hole hard. when he finally does, he gains a few, but still reverts back instead of learning. i just do not see this offense getting anything going unless our RB position can produce.

Musa Smith should be starting for this team. Mike Anderson should not be benched the way that he has been. the depth is unreal and there is only 1 ball to go around, but you go to the guys that produce. when Musa is in, the defense has to watch for the pass or the run and he hits the hole hard and fast. with Jamal, when there is a hole, it closes while he dances. even when Anderson is in, you have to wonder what is going to happen. the last couple weeks, at least 80% of the time. when Jamal is there, it is a running play. for that reason alone, he should sit down.

i thought Jamal was going to kill this year. his preseason running was great. he slammed forward just killing people in the limited time he had. since those first few carries, he has gone back to the "dance machine" and we have suffered for it.

i have missed some of the things i wanted to say and i do not have time to go any further, thoughts?

[ExiledRaven]

I think most of Jamal's problem is that he's trying to do too much.

Stuttering or dancing around he's looking around for some big hole or a cut back when sometimes, especially, with a guy his size, you just power into that hole, truck the safety or linebacker and go.

Musa Smith is really a better back for a Fassel offense anyhow. Look at how Tiki Barber is used in NY and you'll find that Musa Smith is more like Barber than Jamal by a long shot.

Jamal's still not bad...he's got some time to figure things out and better or worse, he's going to start the rest of the year unless somehow Musa or Anderson can really make him look bad. The Denver game will be telling.

If Jamal can't get to elite status again, I think we'll end up trying to trade then cutting him. Anderson's got good power as a change of pace to Smith, but that's all moot offseason discussion and there are so many more games this is premature.

Jamal's also not getting the sheer number of carries as before, that can also play a factor.

[hurting]

I do agree that at times Jamal 'the dancing bear' Lewis looks tentative. I think the coaching staff must take some of the blame. As you have already mentioned when Jamal is in it is a 'Run up the Gut play'. So teams can tee off on him. Jamal is capable of catching the ball and was called upon to do so during the Super Bowl run. The coaching staff must change up the play calling while Jamal is in to help improve his game.

I do like what I see from Musa, but I don't necessarily think he should take the bulk of the carries yet. And as you have already mentioned 'kind-of', where has Anderson been?

For now I let Jamal get the bulk of the carries, but the other two should be worked in, and if Jamal does not start to show the determination he has in the past, then he should be demoted.

[flraven]

You make some good points, IJ. I did notice that in preseason Jamal was busting off runs like the Jamal of old, but the happy feet have returned. I saw him do it several times lately. Why not just hit the hole and bore through?
Is it because he misses Alan Ricard leading the way?
I like the versatility that Musa and MA bring to the huddle, the defense has to respect the fact that they can catch a pass out of the backfield. Jamal seems to have stone hands at times.

[Bez513]

I agree with you IJ. Sitting in 513 I can see his running very well and he does dance way to much. By the time he sees a hole to run in it closes up by the time he gets to it. He needs to pick a lane and got full speed...he's got the power to run people over.

I'd like to see more MA and see what he can do. Or put MA as a FB and be able to make quick hits with him.

[Gabrosin]

I wish I knew whether to agree with you on Jamal or not. I don't know if he has the same skills that made him a terror a few years ago. I may never know. This offensive line isn't opening holes for anybody, and here's a news flash: even with a former MVP at quarterback and three top receiving options, our passing attack sucks. So that's not helping to take pressure off our running game either. Will putting Musa in help? Maybe. I have no idea. I just know that our offensive line does nothing well right now. Jamal, at least, has something on his resume, to show that he has NFL skills. Right now Flynn, Vincent, and Pashos are letting him, and us, down.

[FHRaven]

Good points but it's very unlikely the coaching staff would do something that drastic, especially while the team is winning. I expect the coaching staff will stick with Jamal until the last possible minute.

I would like to see a lot more of Musa but it's not going to happen.

FHRaven

[Art-Florida]

You have to put some of the blame on BB. One of his faults is he sticks to what worked in the past too much. (TT, Flynn, Grbac, Searcey, etc.) Brian seems to hate change, even when the rest of the world knows you have to make some.

In 2003, you handed the ball off to Jamal. In 2006, you bench him and go with one or two of the other four guys.

In 2007, you try to get the best draft choice for him; then you draft a better halfback.

[Gabrosin]

You cannot bench Jamal and then still get any sort of draft choice for him. I'm not saying that benching him would be right or wrong, but just know that no one is likely to offer anything, especially given his contract structure. They would wait for us to cut him.

[highwater]

I think Jamal was actually playing pretty well until this past game. I wouldn't bench him just yet, but I do wonder why the hell we even signed Mike Anderson. Jamal was getting nothing done yesterday, so why not give Anderson a few carries? Or Musa? We have really good depth at RB but we aren't taking advantage of it. Jamal had 15 mostly ineffective carries yesterday, and Musa and Anderson had three combined. Why?

Then again, I also didn't understand why we constantly ran Jamal up the middle on what seemed like almost every first down, leading to constant second and eight situations. It wasn't working, so why did they keep doing it?

[Gabrosin]

I think Jamal was actually playing pretty well until this past game. I wouldn't bench him just yet, but I do wonder why the hell we even signed Mike Anderson. Jamal was getting nothing done yesterday, so why not give Anderson a few carries? Or Musa? We have really good depth at RB but we aren't taking advantage of it. Jamal had 15 mostly ineffective carries yesterday, and Musa and Anderson had three combined. Why?

Then again, I also didn't understand why we constantly ran Jamal up the middle on what seemed like almost every first down, leading to constant second and eight situations. It wasn't working, so why did they keep doing it?

We've all seen quite a few Ravens games where Jamal hits the 20 carry mark and suddenly he's just gashing the opponent. We weren't able to get him there because we weren't able to sustain early drives. But your point about running into the middle is accurate. Jamal Williams is a very solid NT and we couldn't move him all day (no surprise there, with Flynn and company attempting to do so). We needed to start getting our RBs outside. Would we have to deal with their fast LBs? Yep. Is Jamal not an outside runner? Let Musa or Anderson or even PJ Daniels give it a try. But they had our middle shut down very effectively, and we just kept hitting our heads against it. It was disappointing, to say the least. Even if the outside runs only get a couple of yards themselves, it might have loosened up the middle and kept their defense on its heels a bit more.

[Fanman]

Jamal is washed up...he stinks..period.

Give MA and Musa a lot more touches and that way you can see if the running issues are more b/c of the line or the RB. I say it's more the RB at this point. What is the point of pre-season if Musa does great and then collects dust in the regular season? Why did we even sign Anderson? Billick and Fassel really need to wake up on this issue or a promising season will go to waste.

FM

[RavenScallywag]

honestly, I'd like to see Musa get a 20 carry game this year...let's see if he could carry this offense.

MA, i'd rather use him as a #2 RB/FB/H-back guy. We know he can block, we know he can catch the ball, and he's a decent runner. Let's use that versatility instead of BENCHING HIM.

[italianjoker]

Jamal is not going to be here next year. the option on his contract is such that we can dump him, if i am not mistaken. i think it is time to start using Musa more. he is the future of this time and seems to make something happen when he gets the chance. we need a rb that can flow with the offense, not just be run, run, run. mixing it up helps to keep the defense honest just as much as the long ball.

[ExiledRaven]

well, that's sort of the whole "complete" back thing.

LT is, at least in my opinion, the best back in the league. He can make some plays out of nothing, miss a tackle he's gone, great hands (100reception year), you have to account for him no matter what the down is or where he is on the field.

Lewis doesn't have that, but then again, he never did...before we could run on teams in spite of the fact they knew we would. Can't do it anymore (or maybe the browns can tackle now?...yeah, I said that.). So I wouldn't want to jump all over him for something he couldn't do even back when he was the only nice thing in the offense.

We'll see, in my heart of heats, I really want him to succeed.

[Sports Steve]

Time for Musa to start. Jamal doesn't look hungry anymore for the big game. The schedule will be getting harder in a couple of weeks and we will need a running game to continue in our march to the PLAYOFFS :thumbup:



:jester: :jester:

[Sephy]

Jamal is not going to be here next year. the option on his contract is such that we can dump him, if i am not mistaken. i think it is time to start using Musa more. he is the future of this time and seems to make something happen when he gets the chance. we need a rb that can flow with the offense, not just be run, run, run. mixing it up helps to keep the defense honest just as much as the long ball.

You're right. Hopefully someone in Owings Mills gets that.

[CrowMST3k]

Joker. Good to see you on this board.

And you're damn right. It's been particularly frusturating this year, seeing as how we've been only passing for about 150-200 yards a game and not having one of our backs as a 100+ yard rusher to offset that passing deficit.

Jamal hasn't looked great since 2003. He is just worn out. Not a ton of tread on the tires. It's all familiar to the Terry Allen/Jason Brookins situation of a few years ago.

Musa is young (age and carries), quick, and powerful.

Mike Anderson is old, but still young carries-wise. WHY AREN'T THEY USED MORE THAN SMOKEY-THE-DANCING-BEAR JAMAL????

I understand the teams attachment to Jamal, but come on, let's be real!

Also, the O-line could pop open some more holes...end of rant.

[CrowMST3k]

Time for Musa to start. Jamal doesn't look hungry anymore for the big game. The schedule will be getting harder in a couple of weeks and we will need a running game to continue in our march to the PLAYOFFS :thumbup:



:jester: :jester:



SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Don't use the P-word!

[purplepoe]

While Im not in favoring of flat out benching Jamal, I do think Fassel has got to mix things up.

As was said above, when Jamal is in, it's a run play. And if we're seeing that, then it's WAY too predictable.

As far as the reason we signed Anderson.

I honestly think the Ravens had their offer out to Jamal and they felt they had all the leverage. They had the deal structured to their liking.

They had no idea what they had in Musa. It was far from a sure thing that he would be even healthy enough to play on special teams, let alone at RB. So they went out and got Anderson for a fairly cheap price.

IMO, Jamal saw the writing on the wall as far as his market value and realized that staying here was his best option. The Ravens were happy to sign him on their own terms and have a Jamal/Anderson tandem. As for why they aren't giving the ball to Anderson in situations like Sunday when it's 2nd and goal from the 1.5 yd line, I don't know. I was screaming for him and really went nuts when the shovel pass turned into a fumble.

Musa is a bonus.

PP

[camdenyard]

It's starting to piss me off that Jamal can't get anything done and we have a guy active on the bench that has skills...who can be a good change of pace at the minimum and brings a rep as a dangerous pass-catcher...and he never sees the field.

Why?

I don't want to hear about "personnel packages" or ridiculous shit like that. If you have a playmaker activated, you find a way to use him for at least a handful of plays. We can't gain 50 yards on the ground and MA is rotting on the vine. As it's been said, when Jamal is in the game, 90% of the time he gets the ball. Duh. Way to mix it up, Jim.

I gotta think MA is in someone's doghouse. There is no other explanation.

[flraven]

I believe I heard awhile back that they're "saving" MA for later in the season to have some fresh legs for November and December. Not sure how true that is.
I thought they got him to be a fullback to block for Jamal but that isn't happening either - they go with two tight-end sets to help the O-line out.

Lets see more of Musa and MA !

[Dusty728]

I believe I heard awhile back that they're "saving" MA for later in the season to have some fresh legs for November and December. Not sure how true that is.
I thought they got him to be a fullback to block for Jamal but that isn't happening either - they go with two tight-end sets to help the O-line out.

Lets see more of Musa and MA !

I hope this is the case. I hope they start using musa this week insted of JLew and then at the end of the year have MA block for both of them.

[ravensfan1996]

I can agree that the Ravens dont seem to be utilizing their players to the best that they can. Musa is still unproven, he had a great preseason, but thats like getting a hole in one on a mini golf course, its nice but lets see it when it really counts.

Im no expert but some anaylst said that jamal always has had the stutter steps even in the 2000 yd season, so we may just be trying to find anything for the reason for the decline. But i still think the reason is the o-line of course. A great running back of course can make a hole but i dont see musa or mike anderson doing any better with the line. The play calling needs to be off tackle more and not run it up the gut, it hasnt worked its not working unless their evil plan is to wear the other team down.

Jamal is still avg 3.7 yd per carry not great but no washed up either, he is ranked 15th in total rushing yds. With better play calling I still think jamal is the go to guy for now and musa is nice to have the option for passing or running.

[italianjoker]

I can agree that the Ravens dont seem to be utilizing their players to the best that they can. Musa is still unproven, he had a great preseason, but thats like getting a hole in one on a mini golf course, its nice but lets see it when it really counts.

Im no expert but some anaylst said that jamal always has had the stutter steps even in the 2000 yd season, so we may just be trying to find anything for the reason for the decline. But i still think the reason is the o-line of course. A great running back of course can make a hole but i dont see musa or mike anderson doing any better with the line. The play calling needs to be off tackle more and not run it up the gut, it hasnt worked its not working unless their evil plan is to wear the other team down.

Jamal is still avg 3.7 yd per carry not great but no washed up either, he is ranked 15th in total rushing yds. With better play calling I still think jamal is the go to guy for now and musa is nice to have the option for passing or running.


i know what you are saying, but do not agree with the bulk of it.

while Musa is unproven, there is only 1 way to become proven and it is not sitting on the bench watching "the dance machine." Musa can only produce when called upon and hope for more chances and he has done just that.

Jamal dances more now than he did before. i do not care about a media person's thoughts on the rb i have watched every day since he was drafted. while Jamal did "shuffle" his feet during the 2000 yrd season, it was due to all the cutback runs he had. it was a designed play for him to cutback and go against the grain of where the oline was blocking. designed to isolate him and a DB where he wins every time. now, the cutback is not there. in fact, the cutback is not what is called and he still dances before hitting the hole on a straight ahead, jam it up the middle run. there is a difference between now and then and the bulk of it is him.

the oline was bad then and the oline is bad now. when Musa or MA are in, they get the ball and run hard. they explode into the hole and if there is no hole, they explode into the pile. Jamal, dances and curls up waiting to be tackled. it is horrible for a guy of his size and ability to dance and pussyfoot around the field.

i will wait and see, but he is not showing any sign of life. not to mention the fact that Billick is way too loyal. he will stick with people even if it means us losing. the only time he was able to pull the trigger is when Tony Banks was allergic to the endzone for a month. finally he gave in, i do not expect that with this situation. i expect to see Jamal the entire year. then i expect to see him elsewhere. if we are lucky.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Sadly, I agree.

I still think jamal can be a good RB if you put a good OL in front of him and give him space.

But the days of him making something out of nothing just isn't there anymore.

[ChixDigLongBall]

Jamal is a has-been. He simply runs into piles now. He never had the best vision to begin with, and it's even worse with his diminished burst. This is the most stubborn coach I've ever seen. I think this is a reason why people hate Billick. Anyone can see that the guy just doesn't have the same burst, passion or hunger he once did. I'd be okay with Jamal if he was a pile driver.. a Bettis like runner who can move the chains and wear out a defense. But Jamal can''t run effectively with his pads and he can't seem to break the arm tackles anymore. I think Bettis is still a better back and he is retired right now. Jamal's body is shot and it's time to stop forcefeeding him down the throat.


The only way Jamal can be effective is for him to have a dominant FB and OL. But that is asking for too much because of his limitations. If we can split his carries with Musa, it would work very well.


I don't see the Pats being stubborn with the way they have assimilated Maroney in their offense. Both he and Dillon have enjoyed a great season in tandem. Jamal is much younger than Dillon but the stages are similar. I see no reason why Musa can't do some of the things Maroney is doing.

I'm not saying to get rid of Jamal this year. But they don't have to be afraid to hurt his feelings and play the younger, fresher legs. THis veteran stuff is being taken too far here.


When Musa got the ball, he hit the hole with authority and speed. He's not a power player, but he can cut quickly if the original hole closes up. It's so simple to let the guy see the field more. He is big, fast and quick. With Musa, e can be like a Julius Jone style of runner that can go inside out, so the defenses can't really compact itself inside.

The way Billick does things, you almost have to root for an injury or something, which is really folly.


This is a very easy situation to resolve, if only Billick would trust his younger players to come thru. Musa's got the goods, so let him show it on the field.

[RavensNTerps]

this thread is not for all the "lollipop and candy cane" fans. if you can not discuss the team, go away.


i have seen Jamal's dance for too long. it is time for him to get benched. sure, the play calls of constantly running between Ogden and Edwin is partially to blame, but this guy runs like a fragile sissy. he does not hit a single hole hard. when he finally does, he gains a few, but still reverts back instead of learning. i just do not see this offense getting anything going unless our RB position can produce.

Musa Smith should be starting for this team. Mike Anderson should not be benched the way that he has been. the depth is unreal and there is only 1 ball to go around, but you go to the guys that produce. when Musa is in, the defense has to watch for the pass or the run and he hits the hole hard and fast. with Jamal, when there is a hole, it closes while he dances. even when Anderson is in, you have to wonder what is going to happen. the last couple weeks, at least 80% of the time. when Jamal is there, it is a running play. for that reason alone, he should sit down.

i thought Jamal was going to kill this year. his preseason running was great. he slammed forward just killing people in the limited time he had. since those first few carries, he has gone back to the "dance machine" and we have suffered for it.

i have missed some of the things i wanted to say and i do not have time to go any further, thoughts?


So he had a bad game against the league's top running D...in limited carries he has also had games of like 86, 71, and 75 yards rushing in the other 3...not too terrible.

But this coming from the guy who claimed Billick "was forcing Clarence Moore down our throats" (dude started 2 games and hasn't been active but for like 2 games since), and that Billick should start Randy "I'm not in the NFL anymore" Hymes and was too stupid to realize it.

[21xxxv]

Joker-


Jamal looked bad last week. The team is 4-0. So, he won't be benched......He played well against TB, decent against the Browns. He has not been able to adapt to the zome blocking O'Line schemes, which depend on the RB to cut back. This again is the staff fixing what isn't broken. However, if we win, perhaps it's time for shared duty. How'bout two tail backs in the back-field? Even for deception, can't hurt.

I lie Musa on third downs, I like MA throughout.

[PurpleRulz]

this thread is not for all the "lollipop and candy cane" fans. if you can not discuss the team, go away.


i have seen Jamal's dance for too long. it is time for him to get benched. sure, the play calls of constantly running between Ogden and Edwin is partially to blame, but this guy runs like a fragile sissy. he does not hit a single hole hard. when he finally does, he gains a few, but still reverts back instead of learning. i just do not see this offense getting anything going unless our RB position can produce.

Musa Smith should be starting for this team. Mike Anderson should not be benched the way that he has been. the depth is unreal and there is only 1 ball to go around, but you go to the guys that produce. when Musa is in, the defense has to watch for the pass or the run and he hits the hole hard and fast. with Jamal, when there is a hole, it closes while he dances. even when Anderson is in, you have to wonder what is going to happen. the last couple weeks, at least 80% of the time. when Jamal is there, it is a running play. for that reason alone, he should sit down.

i thought Jamal was going to kill this year. his preseason running was great. he slammed forward just killing people in the limited time he had. since those first few carries, he has gone back to the "dance machine" and we have suffered for it.

i have missed some of the things i wanted to say and i do not have time to go any further, thoughts?


I think the answer is simple: Jamal's tank has just run out. He is not breaking tackles anymore. He is not hitting the holes as he used to. Face it that we have never had a high quality OL. We had a high quality left side of the Ol, but not a fully potent OL, yet Jamal was to gain yardage. Additionally, Jamal would gain a lot of yards after first point of contact. He is now going down at first contact.

I would like to see Musa Smith as the starter with MA as the backup. I think Musa is our future (if we can get him re-signed, which we will). The reality is that Billick will stick with Jamal for two reasons:

1. Billick sticks with his vets and sometimes too long. See Mike Flynn.

2. Billick probably fears Jamal becoming a major distraction if Jamal is "demoted."

Bottomline is that, barring injury, Jamal will be the starting RB. I do think that this is the last season Jamal will wear Ravens purple.

[DrUnk]

I agree. The year that he didn't tap dance, he got 2000 yards. I also agree, that he is washed up. At least, mix it up with all of the RBs, 'cause our "O" is too predicatable.

[psuasskicker]

Is it because he misses Alan Ricard leading the way?


I think a lot of it has to do with it. Anyone care to look up what Jamal's said about Ricard in the media? He's always made it clear he's very comfortable following Ricard. I thought we made a mistake letting Ricard slip away like he did cause I feared it would hurt Jamal's productivity. Seems to me it has...I don't buy that Jamal's happy feet is much other than him being tentative not sure if he can trust the guy in front of him when it's not Ricard.

- C -