Time management-Attn. Ravens [Archive] - Baltimore Ravens Message Board & Fan Forum

The Fanatic

08-20-2006, 02:08 PM

Salary cap is not an issue when it comes to assistant coaches.

I do agree though, somebody needs to take ownership in this area as it doesn't seem to change.

To me, something like clock management should be as elementary as it gets when coaching football, particurally at the NFL level.

Billick is still defending the decision to run on 3rd down with no timeouts left at the end of the first half against the Eagles.:229031_confused2:

Stupid call if you ask me.

Everything about that situation dictates low risk, high completion percentage type pass into the endzone.

It's either a TD, incompolete pass stopping the clock with no timeouts left, or potentially an INT.

Low risk pass play seriously lowers the potential for the INT. though.

Dunno, but in a real meaningful game, that lost 3 points could mean the difference between winning and losing as most of our wins and losses are by small margins.

When we're a team blowing teams out on a relative consistant basis, then maybe they can get more risky with crap like that.

GreenWave52

08-20-2006, 02:44 PM

Please hire an intelligent coach immediately whose sole responsibility will be clock management, with emphasis on two-minute drills.I have to disagree. Herm Edwards highered a clock management specialist and the results didn't change. The Jets remained one of the worst clock management teams I have ever seen. These "special assistants" have generally poor track records of success. I also remember the Skins got someone to decide when they should challenge plays and they became notorious for wasting timeouts on bad challenges.

Bottom line: I just don't think hiring someone here will really help and Billick and Fassel probably wouldn't listen to him anyway.

Ravens0587

08-20-2006, 02:57 PM

I volunteer

Ravenatic20

08-20-2006, 03:29 PM

The Fanatic

08-20-2006, 03:46 PM

I'm sorry, but time management was not as bad as it seemed to finish the half the other night. We we're on the field, ready to kick the FG, with time to spare. The ball not being there is the refs fault. Now what could have been better is say maybe a passing play with 18 seconds to go. Maybe we take a shot at the end zone, but it really wasn't as bad as you guys think it was.

Sorry, but with 18 seconds left, and 3 points on the line, you can't take that risk.

Damn near anything can go wrong including the refs.

All that rushing around by everybody can't make for a smooth field goal attempt.
Bad snap, guys not lined up right, bad hold, etc.

Too much rushing, and the result was what it was.

The only thing positive that could come out of running the ball would have been a TD, which is unlikely.
If the runner would have gotten a few more yards on that run there wouldn't have been enough time to make the transition to the kicking team because a few more seconds would have ticked off.

Stupid play call IMO.

purplepoe

08-20-2006, 03:53 PM

You know what would make me happy?

If Billick would just man up and say "we fucked up".

No blaming the refs or others.

Just admit a goddamn mistake.

PP

DrUnk

08-20-2006, 03:56 PM

You know what would make me happy?

If Billick would just man up and say "we fucked up".

No blaming the refs or others.

Just admit a goddamn mistake.

PP

I agree, but, it will never f'ing happen with BB. That's my pet peave with him.

Ravenatic20

08-20-2006, 04:29 PM

Sorry, but with 18 seconds left, and 3 points on the line, you can't take that risk.

Damn near anything can go wrong including the refs.

All that rushing around by everybody can't make for a smooth field goal attempt.
Bad snap, guys not lined up right, bad hold, etc.

Too much rushing, and the result was what it was.

The only thing positive that could come out of running the ball would have been a TD, which is unlikely.
If the runner would have gotten a few more yards on that run there wouldn't have been enough time to make the transition to the kicking team because a few more seconds would have ticked off.

Stupid play call IMO.
It was managed in a way, to allow a good 3 seconds left on the clock when we snapped it. YES, I would much rather spike the ball at the 18 second point, or at least pass it down field.
The coaches probably thought a run was the most conservative way to hold onto the ball, and not allow any time for the Eagles to return it after the FG. If things would have gone fair, we go into the locker room down 10-6. :embarassed:

purplepoe

08-20-2006, 04:29 PM

I agree, but, it will never f'ing happen with BB. That's my pet peave with him.

O, I know.

I'm just venting a little.

Pisses me off.

PP

jonboy79

08-20-2006, 04:41 PM

It was managed in a way, to allow a good 3 seconds left on the clock when we snapped it. YES, I would much rather spike the ball at the 18 second point, or at least pass it down field.
The coaches probably thought a run was the most conservative way to hold onto the ball, and not allow any time for the Eagles to return it after the FG. If things would have gone fair, we go into the locker room down 10-6. :

Or you could spike it at 2 seconds....

The Fanatic

08-20-2006, 05:07 PM

Can you imagine the crowd reaction if they just stood there for 16 seconds waiting to spike the ball and didn't run a play?:rolling:

StingerNLG

08-20-2006, 07:30 PM

I just can't are where a run up the middle serves any purpose in a 2 minute drill. Throw a swing pass and try to get out of bounds to stop the clock. Or throw a medium sideline pass. Something other than a run up the middle.

Drkraven

08-20-2006, 09:07 PM

Its pre-season, they are trying stuff out. Yes I know there were many problems is the past, it just a cross we fans need to bear:bag:

Mista T

08-20-2006, 11:21 PM

I'm sorry, but time management was not as bad as it seemed to finish the half the other night.

If it were not for Billick's abysmal record, you may have a point -- not that I would agree with your point. The Ravens have had far too many blown halftime opportunities since Billick arrived. And an exhibition game is no excuse. Shouldn't the team be practicing how to win games?

Mobtown

08-21-2006, 07:07 AM

If it were not for Billick's abysmal record, you may have a point -- not that I would agree with your point. The Ravens have had far too many blown halftime opportunities since Billick arrived.

Rack That!

If the coaches didn't screw this pooch on a regular basis we wouldn't give a rat's as about the rare and unusual 2-minute drill screw up.

Fact is, Billick & Co. have been HORRIBLE when it comes to planning and executing a 2-minute attack. Mr. Fancy Pants out-snookered himself last week and now he wants to divert attention to the refs. :thumbdown:

Brandon

08-21-2006, 08:26 AM

If it were not for Billick's abysmal record, you may have a point -- not that I would agree with your point. The Ravens have had far too many blown halftime opportunities since Billick arrived. And an exhibition game is no excuse. Shouldn't the team be practicing how to win games?

RACK THAT! :iagree:

And it's not just the halftime blunders either, it's been the whole 2 minute drill thing, that get blown as well.

But since Fassel calls all the offensive plays now, including the redzone, it's his fault, right? :261695:

crazyraven

08-21-2006, 08:49 AM

If that running play goes for 6 pts it would have been a good Time Management or even if it went for 3 yards the ref stops the clock to reset the ball and then they spike and then run the FG unit out. I realize that playing it safe and passing would have been a good call but our ravens were having some success running the ball. And because of that I think this is more a lack of execution by the Players then the fault of the coaches.

And Yes The Ravens were out of TO's and perhaps should have used them wisely. I agree that Blaming the ref is childish but lets be fair, the kicking squad was on the field and ready to go.

StingerNLG

08-21-2006, 11:03 AM

They were definitely having success running the ball. I'm thinking in strict terms more of what you do in a 2 minute drill. If you're going to run, a run up the middle shouldn't even be in the playbook for that situation. If you feel like you have to run, run to the outside so you can either get positive yards or run out of bounds and stop the clock.

IMO at no point in Fassel's thought process should that play have ever entered his mind.

crazyraven

08-21-2006, 11:21 AM

If you're going to run, a run up the middle shouldn't even be in the playbook for that situation.

I'm not sure about that, again if he scores or gets the first down we aren't having this conversation. The field goal unit was ready. If everything was textbook playbook calling this wouldn't be a very exciting league.

What I found impressive on that drive is that the offense knew the plays for the drill well in advance--what a concept. In the past time would tick and tick while the team was in the huddle getting the play down.

Mobtown

08-21-2006, 11:35 AM

I'm not sure about that, again if he scores or gets the first down we aren't having this conversation.

What good would a first down be with 10 seconds (or less) left on the clock?

IF they scored a TD, then we wouldn't be talking here...but they didn't, and it's highly unlikely that they ever would on that play. That's why it makes no sense. With a pass play, you either get the score or the clock stops.

Bottom line, shit happens. Which is exactly why you play smart and don't leave it in the hands of the officials. If we are down by 7 at the end of the game..OK, I can see taking a shot up the middle.

in this scenario...Spike the ball, take your time setting up the FG, walk into half-time feeling good.

It's Preseason, so I am not going to start screaming for the Coach's head. On the other hand, if this was regular season there would be absolutely no excuse for how those 21 seconds played out.

GreenWave52

08-21-2006, 11:37 AM

I'm not sure about that, again if he scores or gets the first down we aren't having this conversation.
Still an up the middle run from where they were is not the highest % play to accomplish the 2 most important things at that time:

1. Score a TD
2. Stop the clock.

I'm not saying a run was doomed to failure, but I think taking a shot at the endzone would have been better.

What I found impressive on that drive is that the offense knew the plays for the drill well in advance--what a concept. In the past time would tick and tick while the team was in the huddle getting the play down.
Agreed, it was a huge improvement over previous years. This offense is finally getting out of the dark ages. In retrospect it was pretty pathetic that we were excited about adding motion last year. I think every other NFL team has been using motion effectively for a decade.

Ravenatic20

08-21-2006, 11:48 AM

IF they scored a TD, then we wouldn't be talking here...but they didn't, and it's highly unlikely that they ever would on that play.
At the same time, if we scored a FG, which we should have, then we would not be having this conversation. We we're ready to kick a FG, with a good 3 seconds left. That's all I'm saying; we we're ready.

crazyraven

08-21-2006, 11:58 AM

What good would a first down be with 10 seconds (or less) left on the clock?
Unless this rule has change, when the clock is under two minutes and a first down is made by the offense the clock stops for the officials to set the ball then starts again when the ref sets the ball and the ref is off the line of scrimmage. With that thinking the the FG unit comes on the field and gets the FG try as soon as the clock starts rolling again. That's what a first down would have gave the ravens instead of the ref sitting in the middle of the line of scrimmage as the time ticked off.

Mobtown

08-21-2006, 12:14 PM

At the same time, if we scored a FG, which we should have, then we would not be having this conversation. We we're ready to kick a FG, with a good 3 seconds left. That's all I'm saying; we we're ready.

Unless this rule has change, when the clock is under two minutes and a first down is made by the offense the clock stops for the officials to set the ball then starts again when the ref sets the ball and the ref is off the line of scrimmage. With that thinking the the FG unit comes on the field and gets the FG try as soon as the clock starts rolling again. That's what a first down would have gave the ravens instead of the ref sitting in the middle of the line of scrimmage as the time ticked off.

I hear what you guys are saying...but I don't think you are hearing me.

A good coach/team doesn't leave it up to the refs.

StingerNLG

08-21-2006, 12:45 PM

I'm not sure about that, again if he scores or gets the first down we aren't having this conversation. The field goal unit was ready. If everything was textbook playbook calling this wouldn't be a very exciting league.

I hear you. But I'm sort of yes and no on that. Because on that run the clock is still ticking. I'm with Mobtown, why give the refs the chance to screw anything up. Throw the ball, or run to the side and try to bounce out and out of bounds to stop the clock. Stopping the clock should have been the priority on that play, not a run up the middle.

Thankfully, it is preseason, so you learn from that.

Ravenatic20

08-21-2006, 02:30 PM

This article pretty much sums it up:
http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article.jsp?id=11791

Losac

08-21-2006, 02:49 PM

Basically, here are the rules Brian Billick and his coaches follow when presented with these types of opportunities. With no timeouts and 18 to 20 seconds left on the clock, you can execute a running play and still kick a field goal. With no timeouts and 10 seconds remaining, you can try a throw to the end zone and still kick the field goal if the pass is incomplete.
Sorry, but I don't agree with this at all. And if Billick will continue to follow these "rules", then we are in for some frustrating ends to games or halfs.

GreenWave52

08-21-2006, 02:52 PM

Ravenatic20, thanks for the link. Below are the 2 paragraphs that I thought were most relevant:

On the sideline, Matt Stover and the field goal team waited to sprint to the line of scrimmage and attempt a field goal. If Musa gained the first down, Steve McNair would spike the ball, and the Ravens would be able to try a throw into the end zone before Stover's group would come out for the attempt. When Smith didn't make the first down, Stover and Co. sprinted to the line of scrimmage for the kick. The half expired before the Ravens got off the field goal attempt.

"You can try a throw to the end zone with 8 seconds on the clock, but you put the quarterback in a tough situation. We could try a pass with 8 or 9 seconds on the clock, depending on the situation - who you are playing, weather, where you are playing and who's in the game," Billick explained. The NFL has decided that if there is five seconds on the clock, and you attempt an end zone throw and it's incomplete, the game or half ends.

I still don't know if Musa had gotten the first down there would have been enough time on the clock to: Line everyone up and spike the ball. Then attempt a pass. Then attempt a FG. I kind of think Billick may be outsmarting himself and trying to do to much.

crazyraven

08-21-2006, 03:21 PM

in the article stover says that the ref put in the kicking ball when they werent suppose to.

"The referees switched the balls," said kicker Matt Stover. "In that situation, they just need to leave what was there on third down and put it in there because it was a time sensitive situation."
I'm not certain if by the letter of the law this is true but Stover seems to know his stuff so I'll trust him here. Had the refs not screwed around with trying to get a special ball on the field Stover nails the kick.

Refs make bad plays too and they should be held accountable. Thank god this is preseason and not a real game.

Losac

08-21-2006, 03:23 PM

Refs make bad plays too and they should be held accountable. Thank god this is preseason and not a real game.
That's the problem. Billick practices this with the team and would do it in a regular season game in a second. It's stupid and risky and Billick of all people should know you never count on the refs for anything.

Mobtown

08-21-2006, 03:32 PM

in the article stover says that the ref put in the kicking ball when they werent suppose to.

I'm not certain if by the letter of the law this is true but Stover seems to know his stuff so I'll trust him here. Had the refs not screwed around with trying to get a special ball on the field Stover nails the kick.

Refs make bad plays too and they should be held accountable. Thank god this is preseason and not a real game.

If this were a real game we would have lost the points (and maybe the game) just like we did in preseason. When was the last time you remember hearing about the NFL putting points on the board (or even admitting a mistake) after the fact?

It just doesn't happen.

Knowing this, why leave it in the refs hands?

If the Ravens are faced with this scenario agaisnt the Stealers (down by 7, 18 or 19 seconds on the 2nd hald game clock) and we win, we can all look back and say how foolish we were to ever doubt them. But right now, today, in the scenario we just faced...it was a fools decision.

DrUnk

08-21-2006, 03:33 PM

Ask Mike Holmgren about leaving the game in the refs hands.:rolling: :rolling:

StingerNLG

08-21-2006, 03:39 PM

Knowing this, why leave it in the refs hands?

I think that is the key question. I agree 100% with Crazy that the refs should be held accountable for their mistakes. But at the same time when you are 20 seconds from the half with no timeouts there should be no way you risk getting down so far that the refs could make a mistake like that. It didn't even have to be an endzone throw. Throw a 6-7 yard out pattern to the sideline and let Heap or Clayton catch the ball and step out. Even if they don't catch the ball you've stopped the clock.

There are just too many other feasable possibilities to get that field goal other than a run up the middle. It's not even the run that gets me. It's running up the middle with no chance to stop the clock.

If it was a regular season game, and we lost by 3 points, wouldn't be a bigger deal than it is now?

Drkraven

08-21-2006, 03:45 PM

If the refs make a mistake, the league office sends a you were right we were wrong letter to the team. It still can not change the score.

crazyraven

08-21-2006, 03:46 PM

losac lets be fair about billick, he has never done this in a regular season game. trying it in practice and preseason is a different story. getting back to what I was saying earlier about the offense knowing a few plays while stepping up to the line instead of huddling up is the positive to take away from all of this. I think they will get better as the preseason winds down and the regular season starts up. The team is really looking good.

Knowing this, why leave it in the refs hands?

Because they are part of the game. Its there job to get that ball set and ready. Better that they are aware of this flub now then in the reg season. I'm glad billick called them out on this in case we are in this sitiuation again perhaps the refs wont switch up the balls.

If the Ravens are faced with this scenario agaisnt the Stealers (down by 7, 18 or 19 seconds on the 2nd hald game clock) and we win, we can all look back and say how foolish we were to ever doubt them. But right now, today, in the scenario we just faced...it was a fools decision.
Going into halftime you want to score points. You have two whole quarters to score more points. true if the ravens are down by 7 points in the 4th and they run the FG unit out there would be hell to pay.

Ask Mike Holmgren about leaving the game in the refs hands.
Good joke but with all seriousness you should expect a good job from the refs and for them to make the correct calls.

If it was a regular season game, and we lost by 3 points, wouldn't be a bigger deal than it is now?
I dont know if its because people are so sick of billick but we have to keep in mind that at this point in the game it was half time.

I agree with that article. it made reinforced the intial feelings I had when the play unfolded.

StingerNLG

08-21-2006, 03:51 PM

Oh, I'm not sick of Billick at all. I like Billick. Personally I was under the understanding that Jim Fassel calls the plays the whole 100 yards of the field. And judging by the track record of our two minute offense, I'm inclined to believe that they would do this in a game.

Going into halftime you want to score points.

Right. But the problem is we didn't score any. We came away with 0 points instead of 3 or 7. Refs fault or not we put ourselves in that position.

crazyraven

08-21-2006, 03:59 PM

Right. But the problem is we didn't score any. We came away with 0 points instead of 3 or 7. Refs fault or not we put ourselves in that position.

Hopefully in the regular season they wont waste there TO so that something like this doesnt happen. Without having the TO's it Killed their chances of scoring. Didnt they burn one on a challege. I forget.

Mobtown

08-21-2006, 03:59 PM

Because they are part of the game. Its there job to get that ball set and ready. Better that they are aware of this flub now then in the reg season. I'm glad billick called them out on this in case we are in this sitiuation again perhaps the refs wont switch up the balls.

dude, what turnip truck did you fall off of? Do you seriously think that the refs give a rats ass that Billick called them out? Sure, they are a part of the game, but their calls/decisions are also an unknown variable and no coach should ever ASSUME that they will do their jobs correctly.

Going into halftime you want to score points. You have two whole quarters to score more points. true if the ravens are down by 7 points in the 4th and they run the FG unit out there would be hell to pay.

I think you know what I meant. The statemnt doesn't change if you replace 7 with 3.

Good joke but with all seriousness you should expect a good job from the refs and for them to make the correct calls.

SHOULD is the operative word here...it doesn't always happen. In a situation like this, why leave no room for error?

I dont know if its because people are so sick of billick but we have to keep in mind that at this point in the game it was half time.

I am actually a Billick fan, but you have to admit that his 2-minute clock management has been horrible over the years.

crazyraven

08-21-2006, 04:11 PM

dude, what turnip truck did you fall off of?
Lets keep it civil. :D

Do you seriously think that the refs give a rats ass that Billick called them out? Sure, they are a part of the game, but their calls/decisions are also an unknown variable and no coach should ever ASSUME that they will do their jobs correctly.
No i dont think that they give a "rats ass" about billick but I think we all agree that the Refs did fuck up. Billick calling attention to it gets the attention of the officials in NY to have the ref look at for situations like this in the game. Its not uncommon for the refs to be reminded of a rule when they screw up. We do agree that the refs fucked up right?

I am actually a Billick fan, but you have to admit that his 2-minute clock management has been horrible over the years

You'll get no arguement from me about that. The 2 minute drill has been horendous...I can only think of two that were really successful and they were done by banks and Grbac