Is It Time To Trade For major Tarde OL Player

[Sports Steve]

Look we bring in a Steve McNair and the result is still the same with the OL. How do Ravens fans out there feel about maybe even it's risking our future to trade for a major OL player ( If Available) ? We do know it's late in the
pre-season but I have real concerns with the OL right now. I would like to hear your thoughts.


:jester: :jester: :jester:

[Sports Steve]

Title should be: Is It Time To Trade for a Major OL Player

[BirdFan]

Sure, go after a major player. Leon Searcy worked out so well. :rolleyes:

We may just have to be patient (though I'm having issues with that) while we grow our own.

[flraven]

Do the Ravens wait until cuts to see what shakes out? Maybe someone cut from one team because of depth could be a fit here? Its hard to say, what could the Ravens offer in exchange for a proven OL guy?

[The Fanatic]

It was time to do so a few years ago, and still counting!!

The line went down hill after we won the Superbowl and really hasn't been addressed correctly since.

When Jeff Mitchell left is when the problems started.

Letting Rabach go and retaining Flynn in that spot compounded the problem.

Now that several years of this have gone by, the problem is getting even more compounded.
Ogden is getting older and will probably only play for this year and maybe next if we're lucky.
Mulitano is no world beater out there, but in comparison to the rest he's the next highest quality lineman.
He as well is in the latter stages of his time.

Year in and year out I see other teams draft lineman in just about every round and they find their way onto the field as starters either in year one or two.

How freakin' long has Pachos been here now?

Terry is in year two now, and is servicible at best at this point.

Right now, we have I believe 5 offensive tackles on the roster, and a couple of those scrubs make pachos look li8ke a pro-bowler!!

A couple of those dudes will be cut very shortly leaving us virtually no depth at OT.

I'm telling you, the line problems will be the death of this team, in particular the tackle position.

If Ogden gets hurt, we're in really deep shit!!

Right now, I'd bring back Orlando Brown just to provide a body of servicible depth with experience.:ralph:
Pretty freakin pathetic when I'm thinking we should be bringing in Orlando Brown!!:bag:

Rimph was probably our best depth at guard, and I haven't heard what the outlook is for him being able to play this year is yet.

At some point in time, heads have got to roll for the continued decision to not make quality offensive lineman a priority.
Unfortunately, I have the feeling it will be Mcnairs head rolling first followed by Bollers!!

You wanted my opinion, you got it!!:hammer:

[ChrisQ]

Too late now. Any moves we were to make on that front needed to happen months ago.

Half of me would have let Ed Reed walk and spend that money on an outstanding o-line player. The other half of me of course would go 0-16 before giving up Ed Reed. I love our defense, but what good is it when we are scoring 3 pts a game and our offense gives up TDs all the time? Our QB will be getting sacked for fumbles and tossing interceptions because he's only got .005 seconds before 2 unblocked linemen bury him every other play. Its happened to both McNair and Boller.

Maybe we should play Cover 1 offense and have Ed Reed deep behind the QB to stop the fumble and interception returns :laugh:

[Merlin]

So far in the preseason, we have seen the front office (Ozzie, Bisciotti, Billick and company) be consistent in its support of the o-line, contrary to what we fans saw this year and last year. We need to conclude either

1. ) The front office is seeing things that we aren't. (though I think this business about Mike Flynn being far superior to Jason Brown on the line calls is horsesh*t)

2. ) The front office is making consistent errors in their judgments that they aren't perceiving; e.g., they have a major blind spot. Since Biscotti says this organization is run like a well-run business what common business misjudgments could the Ravens be guilty of with the o-line?


1. Going after sunk costs -- The front office made a clear mistake in retrospect in keeping Flynn and getting rid of Rabach and have wasted a signing bonus on Keydrick. It is a common misjudgment to keep trying to get "your return" on those investments, even though the money is gone.

2. Misguided loyalty -- Most interviews by Billick on Flynn talk about "what a great team player he is" and references his play on the Super Bowl team of 2000. What past is past.

3. Risk aversion -- Because the "future is now" for Billick, he may be reluctant to take a risk with a younger o-line and accept some errors in the first few games in exchange for more experience by the younger players later in the team.

This is a major decision for the team. In the past, veteran teams like the Forty-Niners were very good at injecting first or second year players on the line early in the season so that they could climb the experience curve. One would hope that the Ravens would learn how to do the same. However, nothing in their behavior gives us any reason to believe that they will.

Anyone out there that can give me more reason for hope about this?

:grbac:

[BirdFan]

Anyone out there that can give me more reason for hope about this?

The only thing that keeps me sane on this issue is remembering those two prime time games late last season. The line was holding up for those, so I keep hoping they'll find their way back to that point soon.

[StingerNLG]

Letting Rabach go and retaining Flynn in that spot compounded the problem.

This was a mistake of Angelosian proportions. And I say this as a fan of Ozzie Newsome. But we have a history of making too many players "The highest paid "X" in the league". Heap, Lewis, Reed - all overpaid IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS (need to make sure I include that disclaimer so people don't accuse me of knocking their talents). But they really need to start paying the team AS A TEAM.

Maybe that will also help the team mentality.

[RavenTD]

I would like to see one of our NFL salary guru's come up with a list of starting O'line total salary.And see where the Ravens match up with other teams in terms of money devoted to the O'line.

I feel we have too many experiments,average joe types upfront.And if it doesn't mesh,and against a good D like the Buc's.The offense will be eaten alive.

On the otherhand if they can come together in week one,then we should be set for the season barring injuries.

[DrUnk]

Why do we need a retarded OL player?

[Art-Florida]

We need to either grit teeth, go with what we have, and hope for the best. (scary) or...

Start talking to teams about trading a quality tackle for either:
A: a player where we have depth - RB LB WR
B: a draft choice
or...

Hypnotice the staff into biting the bullet and playing Brown and Chester immediately.

We villagers are about ready to grab the torches and pitchforks.

[PurpleRulz]

I like the group of young OL that we currently have in Adam Terry, Jason Brown and Chris Chester.

Adam Terry: He has proven to be our future at LT. He has played very well during the preseason and against some very good DEs. His pass protection is a little better than his run blocking, but Terry's shown that he can be counted on to be our LT for the next 8 years.

Jason Brown: After playing center during the first game, he has seen time moreso at LG. That could be his future, but Brown has shown that he can run and passblock. Besides, he has a nasty streak and fire that is needed on our OL. Brown is the heir apparent to Ed Mulitalo, and no longer the center of the future. Not a bad thing.

Chris Chester: Now, here is our center of the future. He played very well at center for Boller and once he adds weight and more muscle, I think he will be an outstanding center.

Those three are the future left to center of our OL, and I am encouraged with our future in the trenches. During the offseason, we should focus on signing a RT. Pashos is slated to be a UFA, and with the way he's played, this could be his last season as a Raven. At the least, Pashos may be re-signed as the backup, but we should pursue a proven RT via FA. In addition, we should also draft two more OL. This would provide more depth as well as more competition so that Terry, Chester, and Brown are still pushed to perform.

[ExiledRaven]

I would like to see one of our NFL salary guru's come up with a list of starting O'line total salary.And see where the Ravens match up with other teams in terms of money devoted to the O'line.

I'm no expert, but I'll not post for a week if I am wrong. I doubt you'll find a big difference between us and most teams. I wish i still had the link but I saw the "too many teams are thinking they can get a top ten-15 offense with a barely average offensive line." And that article proceeded to, amongst other teams, call out the Cowboys and Ravens. Teams with good lines can get away with more...not to mention make good players great (larry johnson, priest holmes, tom brady, trent green, edge, marshall faulk, shaun alexander).

Fact is, we pay top dollar for Ogden, worth it 3 years ago, now? Not really. Does it matter if you have a top 3 left tackle when the right is a constant turnstyle.

We are also paying truckloads to the wrong players. Flynn got a big extension, he was a guard in 2000. Rabach flat outplayed him. Doing pretty solid in Washington too. Why didn't we just sign Rabach to be the center and move Flynn to right guard? I've always wondered about that personally.

If there is any one thing that will continue to be the downfall of this team it is continually marginal O-line play, regardless of who is playing QB or RB period. Fact is if we had invested in the OL properly, then Boller might have worked out better. Not defending or criticizing.

This all goes back to the cap purge. We had to start from scratch and the OL has never recovered. All the investments were in other positions.

You can get away with mediocre WRs or TEs if one group is great. (San Diego, KC, New England)...hell or make an offense with barely anything (Philly) adequate.

Will the help come too late? I am inclined to think so.:179421:

[B-more Ravor]

We are also paying truckloads to the wrong players. Flynn got a big extension, he was a guard in 2000. Rabach flat outplayed him. Doing pretty solid in Washington too. Why didn't we just sign Rabach to be the center and move Flynn to right guard? I've always wondered about that personally.

Let me first say that I am, by no means, a Mike Flynn fan - I would love to see Chester or Brown unseat him, and as soon as possible - but I still have problems every time I see comments like this. IMO, Flynn and Rabach were essentially the same player. Flynn got his deal coming off of 2003 when he played very well while Jamal ran for 2000+ yards. He got hurt in camp in 2004 - broken collarbone - and was unable to do any weight training after that. Rabach - who could not beat out Flynn or Bennie Anderson in any of the 3 prior years - took over and played well. Was Rabach's 2004 better than Flynn's 2003? Well, given the overall results of the offense, I would say not. I certainly do not believe that Rabach outplayed Flynn, by any stretch of the imagination. At worst, they were equal.

After that, the FO had to make a decision between two players who they essentially felt were the same. Flynn was already under contract, so they kept him. They felt that Flynn, with a healthy offseason, would be back to his 2003 form. Unfortunately, hindsight says otherwise, and I know that Flynn is a common target among fans, but I really can't fault them for making the decision they made, given the circumstances at the time.

As an aside, it is interesting that, as it often seems to be the case, Flynn's best year - by far - was 2003 when he was a pending FA and Rabach's best year - heck, his only good year as a Raven - was also when he was a pending FA. It's amazing (sarcasm) how much $$$$ can be a motivating factor. :(

[The Fanatic]

Is Orlando Brown available?

Yes, and so is Ethan Brooks.
Neither would be at the top of my list to sign, but at this point strickly looking for depth, they look like world beaters compared to a couple of those scabs we threw out there after Pachos and Terry.

Bottom line with this mess falls on Ozzie.
His phylosiphy has always been that they place the value on those that touch the ball or those that touch the QB.

Until that changes to some degree, I don't see us spending a great deal in free agency for offensive line help anytime soon.:grbac:

[Greg]

Is It Time To Trade For major Tarde OL Player
I think we have too many major tards on our OL as it is.

[Mobtown]

Is It Time To Trade For major OL Player



The time has passed. But, for the sake of argument, let's hear some suggestions as to who might be available and which players might fit.

[RavenFanatic2k6]

We don't really even have a backup at RT, since everything I've read has said that Terry can't play there.

Oz and Co. would do well to look hard at the cuts and try to find someone servicable, and if they can't do that, as a last resort sign someone like Brooks or Brown.

[B-more Ravor]

We don't really even have a backup at RT, since everything I've read has said that Terry can't play there.


Well, this brings up something I've been saying for about a month now - this team doesn't have enough depth at OT. Before Rimpf was injured, it looked like they would end up with 3 OTs and 6 interior OLmen making the roster. That's not a good balance and they usually carry 4 OTs. I had speculated that perhaps Kracalik or Droege might have a shot at making the team since they would IMO prefer to carry 4 OTs going into the season. Then, the first preseason game was played and the idea that Kracalik or Droege would make the team became laughable.

Now, with Rimpf likely headed toward IR, I've got to think that they will make some move to bring in an OT who is worthy of making the roster, but I highly doubt that they will end up getting anyone who will be able to contribute unless forced into action (God-forbide) because of injury.

[ravensfan86]

I fear we are married to this line as it is. No one of value will come available to be of help any more then the 3 future players: Terry, Brown, Chester. There is a timing issue of Chester and Brown not quite ready for prime time. Although I expect both will play this season and I hope Chester can at some point, unseat Flynn.

B-Ravor:

I see it a little differently. Flynn and Rabach are completely different players today and that is the job of the front office. They have to project during the term of the contract the type of player they have. Rabach is a better player then Flynn today. He is able to get to the second level and make affective blocks. At times it appears that flynn thinks his only assignment is to snap the ball. But when ever DT's like Pat Williams sqaures off against flynn, he is pushed back off the ball and many times into the QB, on running plays! To me both Brown and Chester are better at standing up their man as part of their assignment. Maybe Rabach isn't a world beater but he rarely is blocked into his QB on a running play!

I think Eric Decosta's comments right after the draft about "losing in the trenches" on both sides of the ball was something that needed to be addressed. That is why Ngata was drafted and he mentioned that was needed on the offensive side as well.

[B-more Ravor]

I see it a little differently. Flynn and Rabach are completely different players today and that is the job of the front office. They have to project during the term of the contract the type of player they have. Rabach is a better player then Flynn today. He is able to get to the second level and make affective blocks.

Well, when they signed Flynn to his deal, he was the better player and it looked like he was really coming into his own at the C position. And, most importantly, at that point, Rabach had hardly seen the field having been unable to supplant Flynn or Benny Anderson. I really don't think anyone would have thought that one year later the team would be faced with a decision regarding keeping him or letting him go. He really was bad - really bad - when he got the chance to play during his first 3 years here.

So, once he did play in 2004 and play as he did, it really didn't matter because the Ravens decision was already made - the money had been investing in Flynn.

Now, if you want to say they should have seen it coming, well, I just can't see how they could have based on how underwhelming Rabach's play was during his first 3 years here. That, IMO, would be hindsight talking. Had he then been Flynn's equal (or close enough), I have no doubt the team probably would have let Flynn go and stuck with Rabach since he was younger, and at least at that point, cheaper. But, the simple fact of the matter was that Rabach, as a 3rd round pick, was basically a bust during those 1st 3 years.

[RavenTD]

I do believe we Raven fans should have this motto.

Friend asks,"Looks like you have a gray hair."

Reply,"It's the O'line stupid.":insane:

Its not like we are not prepared for what a bad O'line looks like.Its watching
the effects of what a bad O'line brings for another season .

[Kaven]

The front office obviously felt comfortable with the lineman we have. It won't take long to see if they were right.

[purplepoe]

My major problem is this.

Take a look around the league at some other teams offensive lines. You'll see rookies and 2nd year players starting and contributing. Why hasn't/isn't that happening with the Ravens? Are we not drafting well? Is it the coaching? What gives?

We trade up to get a guy like Terry and like Fanatic said, he's barely serviceable now. Same goes with Brown.

Im telling you, something is screwed up big time.

It's pretty obvious that the coaching staff is very loyal to the veterans and that isn't helping either. Seems like they aren't willing to go through a few growing pains with the young guys. But if they dont' do that, then the young guys are just gonna ride the bench and never cut their teeth with legitmate live action. And we're left with wondering why we have to watch Flynn year in and year out.

Whatever it is, it's almost laughable that we're sitting here less than 2 weeks before the 2006 season and STILL talking about this issue.

PP

[ExiledRaven]

It's pretty obvious that the coaching staff is very loyal to the veterans and that isn't helping either.


Cowher was criticized for the exact same thing following that miserable Steelers season.

Billick has always been loyal to a fault. I don't think that's going to change.
Also, we've got a great :261695: Oline coach that got FIRED in Miami.

Defensive guys keep getting hired away and most of the same offensive people were around until the owner stepped in and said "this person needs to go".

Where is the accountability for poor coaching on this team?

[DrUnk]

Billick has always been loyal to a fault. I don't think that's going to change.


I agree, but (and I know PP will enjoy this), on the news the other night (can't remember which channel), he threw Mason under the bus, for running a missed route on the INT to Smoot. However, he can't admit that he F'd up on the running play before the half, in the previous game.:grbac:

P.S.-not trying to hijack, just an observation.

[AZRAVEN]

To me the only thing that has changed is that we can no longer blame it all on the quarterback for making the line look bad. We are forced to accept that the OL does, indeed, SUCK!
Our line has sucked for years to me it seems like just a philosophical disconnect.. Oz and the boys think any fat guy can be a successful OL and so they place no particular value on looking for top tier people. I also think our OL coaching sucks, these guys never seem to develop. As someone else posted, other teams bring along guys by their second year, by the second year most of our OL draftees have barely seen the field.. WHY??
I really blame Ozzie for this mess and hope he is held accountable if the season doesn't go well.

[52decleetzu]

Interesting article about David Carr I just read.Sound Familiar?

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/4145078.html

[ravensfan86]

I have to say that Ozzie's track record for the draft is legandary. To draft two HOF players in the same draft, in the same round is incredible. I like the way Ozzie operates and I respect him. That being said, they spent countless hours eveluating the season last year before they made any decisions. The group (Biscotti, Ozzie, Eric, Brian) came to a concensus that we could win with this offensive line. It's hard to imagine that Ozzie would lay his name on the line for that group. Other then JO, they are fairly plain and ordinary.

It is obvious that if the Ravens cannot run the ball effectively on the road they become very predictable and as it seems quite easy to defend. McNair will not last 5 games in if the oline plays as they did in Minn. Also the oline coach and Billick should be teaching them how to fire off the ball in unison without hearing the snap count and working as one. I was starting to trust Foerster somewhat after the iggles game. Now I am again not very confident in his coaching ability. This is the NFL. Games on the road in a hostile environment are pretty common. Its coaching and talent level.

If the FO and Billick were content with this group then we should see coaching make up for lack of talent to a degree. I haven't seen it.

We are not a good football team on the road. Especially falling behind in the score. We are not built to become pass happy and protect the QB. I still have trouble believing Ozzie would lay his reputation on this offensive line. It is out there for all to see.

[Mobtown]

I agree, but (and I know PP will enjoy this), on the news the other night (can't remember which channel), he threw Mason under the bus, for running a missed route on the INT to Smoot. However, he can't admit that he F'd up on the running play before the half, in the previous game.

Actually, that was Clayton who screwed up that route.

You guys should all know by now that Bilick will never admit anything to the press.

http://asjewelers.com/FRstuff/11/schultz.jpg

[BaltimoreRon]

Some might argue that some of our OL players (especially on the right side) ARE major tardes.

[Losac]

Some might argue that some of our OL players (especially on the right side) ARE major tardes.

:rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

[RavinDonnie]

Hank Fraley is available..kind of late but the Eagles are willing to make trades.

[BTP Raven]

Jacksonville just lost Greg Jones for the season and Fred Taylor hasn't been durable in years. We've worked friendly deals with Jack Del Rio before. Maybe give up some running back depth for a decent tackle? They might be able to spare Kalif Barnes (dreaming and coming off an injury), Stockar McDougle or Mike Williams for top RB backup?

I'd love to keep the RB depth but feel strongly that it will be wasted unless we add another quality/half-decent OT to at least improve our depth if not bump Pashos to a backup where he belongs.

[BTP Raven]

Anyone else surprised at the number trades other teams are pulling off so close to the season? I hope this trend continues because it could be really good for the league.

[Raineman]

A lot has been said about our future O-lineman, which begs the question....Is Billick, being under the gun, mortgaging our future because of a must win mentality?

The O-line will be the last and final piece that Billick has not handled properly and, in so doing, will expose him for what he really is. Unfortunately at the expense of our future.

Keep in mind that I am not trying to play "negative Nelly" here. The "buck" has to start and end somewhere. Can you suggest another courtyard?

[B-more Ravor]

A lot has been said about our future O-lineman, which begs the question....Is Billick, being under the gun, mortgaging our future because of a must win mentality?

The O-line will be the last and final piece that Billick has not handled properly and, in so doing, will expose him for what he really is. Unfortunately at the expense of our future.

Keep in mind that I am not trying to play "negative Nelly" here. The "buck" has to start and end somewhere. Can you suggest another courtyard?

Well, how about the GM - the one who actually acquires the talent (or non-talents) on the OL? :confused:

And, how is Billick mortgaging our future? Just because he isn't playing young guys right now? Umm, most of those guys who aren't playing - Terry, Brown, Chester - will be here for at least 3 more years, so regardless of what happens this year, they are still the future. The bottom line is that if Billick, and the coaching staff, thought they could help now, they would play them - after all, having the best players playing gives the team its best chance to win, which would be Billick's best chance of keeping his job, right? :eek:

[RavinDonnie]

Since Billick is not the GM I would say know. Ozzie Newsome has ignored the line for years. In case people forget, the line sucked with Mitchell and Rabach and every other bargain rate scrub Ozzie has brought in the last 8 years.
How long did he ignore the wr adn qb position?

[Raineman]

Another courtyard has been suggested, and I never made Oz or Steve B. exempt in this either. They have given the players to BB. He is the one that chooses how to use them. If he is wrong, it is on him. But he chooses to be wrong (if that is the case) at the expense of our future by not getting valuable playing time and him actually expecting a different result with the same tools.

Once again BRavor- Nobody is exempt here. But someone has to take on the oneness, and Brian just seems to be the same "unscolded" self that he is. Excuse the analogy, but he could fast become the "T.O. of coaches" by giving us the same product with a different cover.

There was no secret that the O-line was the first and foremost priority that needed to be addressed this offseason. This was the consensus around most of the football genre. Yet it remains the most stagnant part of our team. Yes, it has been addressed, but with players that all need development (even in their second year) and not ones that can make an immediate impact. Draft was not an option. It was spent on D-line (which I agree was needed-as far as Ray was concerned) and our inability to acquire impacting free agents where needed the most (Yes, I went there) was exposed.

As Forrest Gump said, Thats all I have to say about that.

[sandiegosean]

I have to say that Ozzie's track record for the draft is legandary. To draft two HOF players in the same draft, in the same round is incredible. I like the way Ozzie operates and I respect him. That being said, they spent countless hours eveluating the season last year before they made any decisions. The group (Biscotti, Ozzie, Eric, Brian) came to a concensus that we could win with this offensive line. It's hard to imagine that Ozzie would lay his name on the line for that group. Other then JO, they are fairly plain and ordinary.

It is obvious that if the Ravens cannot run the ball effectively on the road they become very predictable and as it seems quite easy to defend. McNair will not last 5 games in if the oline plays as they did in Minn. Also the oline coach and Billick should be teaching them how to fire off the ball in unison without hearing the snap count and working as one. I was starting to trust Foerster somewhat after the iggles game. Now I am again not very confident in his coaching ability. This is the NFL. Games on the road in a hostile environment are pretty common. Its coaching and talent level.

If the FO and Billick were content with this group then we should see coaching make up for lack of talent to a degree. I haven't seen it.

We are not a good football team on the road. Especially falling behind in the score. We are not built to become pass happy and protect the QB. I still have trouble believing Ozzie would lay his reputation on this offensive line. It is out there for all to see.

I don't get what you mean about Ozzie. It's his job to build the team and if he thought the O-line wasn't up to snuff, it's his job to fix it. He's the GM and oversees the talent, not the coaching staff. I totally agree with AZRaven, this mess falls directly at the feet of Ozzie if it doesn't work out.

[sandiegosean]

Well, how about the GM - the one who actually acquires the talent (or non-talents) on the OL? :confused:

And, how is Billick mortgaging our future? Just because he isn't playing young guys right now? Umm, most of those guys who aren't playing - Terry, Brown, Chester - will be here for at least 3 more years, so regardless of what happens this year, they are still the future. The bottom line is that if Billick, and the coaching staff, thought they could help now, they would play them - after all, having the best players playing gives the team its best chance to win, which would be Billick's best chance of keeping his job, right? :eek:


Bingo, great post Ravor. I don't believe for one second that the coaching staff is not playing the best players. Billick knows that he's on the hot seat, that loyalty stuff is pure BS, the guy wants to win.

[52decleetzu]

Keep an eye on this situation: (hear that OZZIE!!)


http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/state/minnesota/15383722.htm

[B-more Ravor]

Another courtyard has been suggested, and I never made Oz or Steve B. exempt in this either. They have given the players to BB. He is the one that chooses how to use them. If he is wrong, it is on him. But he chooses to be wrong (if that is the case) at the expense of our future by not getting valuable playing time and him actually expecting a different result with the same tools.v

Again, he can only play the players that he has been given. If he is choosing not to play some of the young linemen than it is because he and the coaching staff (with input from the FO as well, I sure) feel that the gusy they are playing give the team the best chance to win. Yeah, it sucks that that all we've got - but that's the reality.



Once again BRavor- Nobody is exempt here. But someone has to take on the oneness, and Brian just seems to be the same "unscolded" self that he is. Excuse the analogy, but he could fast become the "T.O. of coaches" by giving us the same product with a different cover.

And, what of your criticism has anything to do with Billick? The only thing you have remotely said that could be Billick's fault is that he is somehow not playing the young guys and mortgaging our future. Hello, this team isn't about the future - it's about getting to another SB before Ray and Ogden retire and before Rolle, Mason and McNair get too old to contribute. This team is all about the here and now - and that is why Billick is playing the guys that he thinks gives him the best chance of winning. Again, it sucks that that's the best we've got, but until one of the younger guys truly steps up - that's it.


There was no secret that the O-line was the first and foremost priority that needed to be addressed this offseason. This was the consensus around most of the football genre. Yet it remains the most stagnant part of our team. Yes, it has been addressed, but with players that all need development (even in their second year) and not ones that can make an immediate impact. Draft was not an option. It was spent on D-line (which I agree was needed-as far as Ray was concerned) and our inability to acquire impacting free agents where needed the most (Yes, I went there) was exposed.

And, again, that is on Ozzie. You keep bringing Billick into your rant, but much of your criticism is misplaced.

[B-more Ravor]

Keep an eye on this situation: (hear that OZZIE!!)

Yeah, I kept hearing the names of Liwienski and Rosenthal in the 2nd half on Friday night and was somewhat astonished that those guys were now back-ups.

I would definitely take a look at Rosenthal (also, he played for Fassel in NY) if he gets cut loose. IMO, OT is the more pressing need. Hell, I'd even offer Minn a lower round draft pick for their trouble. Granted, it's going to be tough for any OLmen to come onto the team now and get up to speed, so he may not be able to make an immediate impact. Still, we're one OT short at this point anyway, IMO, since we only have 3 viable ones on the roster. When you carry 9 OL on the 53-man roster, you usually are looking to carry 4 OTs, and after Ogden, Terry and Pashos, we've got no one that is deserving.

[Raineman]

I've never held back on my dislike for Billick, here or on YBR. However, it seems convenient for you to miss my "nobody is exempt here" statement.

Hell, I was just asking the questions. Since you have all the answers, I'll stop.

[B-more Ravor]

I've never held back on my dislike for Billick, here or on YBR. However, it seems convenient for you to miss my "nobody is exempt here" statement.

Hell, I was just asking the questions. Since you have all the answers, I'll stop.

And, I took issue with your statement about Billick. I didn't ignore your statement about nobody is exempt, I directly addressed your criticism of Billick. And, you have failed to respond.

I'll ask again - given the way this team has been built, how is Billick "mortgaging the future"?

Look, there are plenty of things that Billick can be criticized for, I just thought this one was unfair.

BTW, if you're going to ask questions - and add criticism - then be prepared to back it up if someone disagrees with you. This is a discussion board, after all, isn't it?

[Kaven]

This is not a line of circumstance. The Ravens have been content to stay the course. Right or wrong, this is the offensive line that the Ravens want.

[PeterB58]

The Ravens have been content to stay the course. Right or wrong, this is the offensive line that the Ravens want.I agree to an extent. I think the Ravens were banking on 2 things happening:

1. That Mulitalo, Ogden, Flynn and Vincent would recover from injuries or take a new approach to conditioning this off-season and the result would be a return to their form of years past. Ogden hired a personal trainer and was reportedly in decent shape (which has partially or totally now been negated in the down-time following his father's passing). Mulitalo was injured to start the year last season and spent the entire off-season at the training facility. Vincent was injured last year.

2. The younger lineman drafted in the previous seasons would develop and either push the veterans or out-right replace them.

So I think it is somewhat inaccurate to state that the Ravens were "content" with the status quo. They realized changes were needed. However, their expectation (gamble?) was that the change would come from their current personnel or that those changes made in previous seasons - drafted lineman and new OL coach - would materialize.

To this point, it is not evident that these changes have worked and I agree it is very troubling factor heading into the season.

One note on "who's to blame?"...I agree that Billick can only play the players he's given, but anybody that understands how the Ravens work also understand that it is the coach's responsibility (and specifically the position coaches' responsibility) to provide info as to whether a certain player can be retained or if upgrades must be considered.

Now, whether Billick and Forrester were banging the table at the off-season meetings asking for new talent on the OL or whether they were telling Ozzie they had the players to succeed, we'll most likely never know.....until someone is replaced.

[Greg]

To this point, it is not evident that these changes have worked and I agree it is very troubling factor heading into the season.
I was very unhappy with the OL play last week and I think we have still had issues in every game, but I wouldn't say it is completely unimproved. The OL did play fairly well against a good Eagles DL and Giants DL. This could have just been a flat week. We haven't traveled well in a while, let's see if Billick can fix that. It might be more that than personnel.

[52decleetzu]

looks like we might have some competition from one of their other former coaches:
http://www.azcardinals.com/fanzone/messageboard/showthread.php?t=9878

[Raineman]

If you can't win with the "old" guys and do not put in the "new" guys, that to me, is mortaging the future. Call it whatever you want. This is the same line we lost with last year. I do not understand why anyone expects anything different from them. Put it on whoever you want to.

Everything on this team is "built to win now" just like it was last year. How can that be, when the most criticized part of our game (sans KB) was not addressed?

That said, I don't think BB is looking to next year because he HAS to win THIS year. I believe that will cause him to make decisions that may effect the future of the team after he is gone. (If in fact that happens) I wish I had a better way to get my point across, but right now, I don't.

[UKRavenStockers]

The OL was what was much maligned and I'm still hoping for improvement this year but I was hoping for a personnel change that's not forth coming. My breakdown:

LT:
This is sorted now and I'm firm in the opinion that it's sorted in the future. I keep reading in various places about how Ogden had a bad year last year, this is all based on one game that was blown out of all proportions, the opener against Indy and the carry over from the previous Indy game. In the game last year it was particularly overblown, Freeney beat him three or four times from about 50 or so offensive snaps, OK that's more than we're used to but places like ESPN take that and overblow by showing the same play over and over and it seems like Ogden was beat like a government mule, when he actually wasn't. The best analysis of these two matchups I've read is at football outsiders, it breaks it down drive by drive and scores the matchup accordingly, Ogden actually won all round it the meeting last year. (I'll get the link if anyone wants it, just PM me.)

For the future I truly believe we're set with Adam Terry, he's not got the power and the leg drive to dominate in the run game but that'll come with time and he's shown some good positional blocking this year manoeuvering (sp.) his opponent so far this pre-season. His pass blocking technique is excellent and when Ogden chooses to step down we won't be left with a scrub at LT because Terry will be ready to be good pro player.

LG:
This is where the problems start, I love Mule and being the eternal optimist I'm hopeful that with his dropped weight, improved muscle:fat ratio and improved training attitude that we'll see an improved Edwin Mulitalo this year. However much he improves though unfortunately, I don't think we're gonna see a rise back to his 2003 form, that was his peak and I still think he'll struggle this year. His footwork is still poor and footwork isn't directly linked to weight. Against big DTs he's fine, always has been always will be, but against smaller DTs getting him moving laterally and also picking up blitzers or DEs coming on inside stunts I think Mule will still struggle this year. The lack of depth here really hurts as well, is Chris Chester ready yet? What's up with Jason Brown?

Looking to the future here it's got to be draft and free agency, Mule is coming to the end as an effective player on the OL and until I see Jason Brown this year I don't think we have the successor here.

C:
More issues, Flynn has looked better this pre-season from the minimal amounts I've seen but he's still getting pushed back by the big DTs. My Vikes friend told me that Pat Williams dominated this weekend and that isn't good news. The only glimmer of hope is that the Bungles DTs aren't great and the Browns have issues over the nose as well, but it's big bad news for facing Casey Hampton and Chris Hoke, constant double teams will be needed on whoever is at NT for the Hilljacks and that comprimises the other guard inside because I don't think that either Mule or Keydrick Vincent are particularly good with their footwork and picking up blitzers. Depth again is an issue here.

Looking to the future I thought Jason Brown was it and I thought it was coming this year, he was very good in his one start last year at Denver and I thought that showing would get him lots of first team snaps in camp, that hasn't come and perhaps his future lies at guard, either way I'd expected more noise to come from Brown trying to unseat a starter on the interior than I've heard. But perhaps I should have seen this coming with the acquisition of Chris Chester in the draft, for my money he's too undersized to be a guard so he's clearly meant to be that mobile centre for the future, we'll have to wait until next year on that one though me thinks.

RG:
Another weak spot on the interior, Keydrick Vincent was supposed to be the big signing at RG to upgrade this side of the line and he was woeful last year, didn't show the power in the blocks we expected and his mobility wasn't what we were led to believe either. I think he only signed a two year contract with us so unless we see a meteoric improvment this year I think this will be his last as a Raven. With the upgraded backfield (mainly by health but also the addition of Anderson) we should see more straight ahead running which may suit Vincent more, either way the improvement's got to come from somewhere or we're in a world of hurt on the interior again.

For the future again, Jason Brown, he can't play three spots but I hope he's able to claim a starter's spot at one of the three this year if the starters don't step up. Besides the Eli draft there is rarely a dreadful draft for interior O-linemen so our scouts should be able to pick someone out someone to come in and upgrade the interior, but with the pick of Chris Chester we may be seeing a change in focus from a physical line to a more mobile line, if so the question has to be asked whether it'll work against the physical defense in Pittsburgh and the growing D that will be built in the Patriot mould up in Cleveland.

RT:
Pashos isn't starting quality, that's pretty plain to see in my opinion. His run blocking is good but in pass pro he's flat footed and cannot cope with speed at all. I don't think there's too much you can say on him, he'd be a decent-ish backup to depend on in a stop gap situation but I'd be scared (as I am now) about going into the season with him as the only viable option at RT for 16 games.

For the future, I was annoyed we didn't get Marcus McNeil who I think will have an excellent (if somewhat shortish) NFL career, but that's in the past and nothing can be done so let's move on. RT is a tough position to plug (as the RT situations at many NFL teams attests to) simply because the best tackles play LT and RT's just aren't highly sought after because people think that the whole can be more easily plugged. With the draft it's an option again and someone like Justin Blalock of Texas would be an option to look at being an RT/G tweener who may well slip down draft boards next year.

On the OL at the mo the present looks bleak and the future looks bleak outside of LT, particularly with Jason Brown failing to make any noise in stealing a starting spot on the interior. I like the idea of a trade for getting more talent in but it simply isn't going to happen, not because we don't want it to but because OL are the least likely players to be traded for my money. They're the players who can most easily get injured (someone trips and rolls up a leg etc.) and consequently no-one will want to give away anyone of starting quality unless you're giving away a very good player in return because they probably won't have the depth or they may be just one game away from needing to make their coveted backup a key starter on their line.

We're in a tough spot but unfortunately we've just gotta play with the hand we've got. This line will either play well and the Front Office will be praised for sticking with them, or they'll continue to play poorly and FO will take a beating for not going and out and upgrading a clear weakness.

[ExiledRaven]

This line will either play well and the Front Office will be praised for sticking with them, or they'll continue to play poorly and FO will take a beating for not going and out and upgrading a clear weakness.

If that's not the truth, I don't know what is.

The OL is fine if there isn't heavy pressure...but of course everyone knows that and brings extra men or loads the box.

We're not getting that monkey off our back until we can finally start beating it. I thought the Giants drive was a shining beacon of hope.

Darkness fell in the vikings game.

Will there be hope? :crazy:

[B-more Ravor]

If you can't win with the "old" guys and do not put in the "new" guys, that to me, is mortaging the future. Call it whatever you want. This is the same line we lost with last year. I do not understand why anyone expects anything different from them. Put it on whoever you want to.
.

But, if the new guys are playing worse than the old guys in practice, then what good is playing them?

Do you think McNair or Ray or Ogden are going to be too pleased with playing these guys for the future, when for many of the players on this team, the future is NOW. After all, if it wasn't, why bring in McNair then? It's not just Billick that is playing for this year - it's a large part of the team.

And, again, Terry, Brown, Chester - all have 3 more years (at least) on the team, so it's not like they still aren't part of the future. There simply is no mortgaging going on here.

Look, I would love for some of the young guys to earn these spots and play well, but the bottom line is that they've got to beat out the competition. Given that Chester and Brown - because after all, that the only ones that we are really talking about - have both struggled against 2nd teamers, it unfortunately, appears that they simply aren't ready to take over the starting spots - even for starters who have played so poorly at times.

[RAVENOUS52]

On the road, in a dome...Yes, our "tardes" are less-than-stellar...
It's as if on the day we drafted the best O-Lineman of his era, we cursed the unit as a whole...

Somebody Get Me a Doctor!