Dominique Foxworth Placed on IR

[StingerNLG]

A bit of a surprise. Just got the text. He's done for the year!

[HoustonRaven]

Cut him and give him an injury settlement.

Be done with him already. Nice guy, but if he cant get to the field, what's the point?

[Flipping Birdie]

http://twitter.com/#!/jamisonhensley/status/119071215729119232

RT@jamisonhensley #Ravens placed CB Domonique Foxworth on injured reserve and re-signed LB Prescott Burgess.

[goodandfast]

Per a text from WNST and Tweet from Hensley.

http://j.mp/qNWb3f

[B-more Ravor]

A bit of a surprise. Just got the text. He's done for the year!

And, short of a paycut next year, he's done in Baltimore because there's no way they are paying him $5.4M in base salary next year.

[GOTA]

Just saw Hensley's tweet. I can't believe they didn't work out an injury settlement before the season started. For what they paid Foxworth is the worst free agent signing in Ravens history. Even if the release him next season he will still have been paid $21.6 million!

[Knox Harrington]

A bit of a surprise. Just got the text. He's done for the year!

I'd say he's done for good w/ the Ravens. His career reminds me a little of Gary Baxter's. Sucks if we have anyone else go down.

[B-more Ravor]

Cut him and give him an injury settlement.


I'll be interesting to see if it plays out that way.

An injury settlement would let him sign with another team - or even the Ravens - later in the season once his knee is ready, but if he feels that he won't be ready, then he'll just decline and stay on our IR for the rest of the year.

[GOTA]

Cut him and give him an injury settlement.

Be done with him already. Nice guy, but if he cant get to the field, what's the point?

It's too late. He was on the roster week 1 so his $4.4 million is now guaranteed. Big screw up by the Ravens

[HoustonRaven]

Just saw Hensley's tweet. I can't believe they didn't work out an injury settlement before the season started. For what they paid Foxworth is the worst free agent signing in Ravens history. Even if the release him next season he will still have been paid $21.6 million!

Not sure of the rules, but I thought you can give a player an injury settlement anytime?

[Flipping Birdie]

Sucks that he had an injury that killed 2 years of his career; but man, what a downer of a signing. We only got half of one season and one playoff run of productive work out of him for over $20 million.

[lloyd christmas]

We need Jimmy to come back pronto.

[Dirt1]

Thiis is a big screw up by the Ravens. Foxworth should have started this season on the PUP list.

[B-more Ravor]

They really screwed the pooch by not putting him on PUP when TC started. Had they done so, they could have kept him there til week 6 and maybe by then, he would have been ready.

That would have saved them the roster spot, that they've now decided they need/want.

[Ravskins]

Damn, a shocker. Can't they still renegotiate his contract?

[HoustonRaven]

Damn, a shocker. Can't they still renegotiate his contract?

They can ask but Foxy doesn't have to. He holds all the cards.

And why would he? He's on easy street, clocking $4 Million for doing nothing.

[Flipping Birdie]

I hope Chykie Brown is ready to step up if (likely) needed against the Jets. :grbac:

[chicagoravensfan]

If they broker an injury settlement, can they absorb all of the cap impact this year and be off the hook for next year?

[Tyrian]

Shame, all around. It was a bad free agent signing and continual perplexing decision over Dominiqiue just made it worse. Also for him, while he gets the paycheck (and a big one at that), he'll be 29 before he may play again. After two years out (should he remain on IR), is that his career done? Cornerback's a young man's position, typically.

[Captain Silver]

About time. Yeah it was a bum signing, and dumb to try and play him this year, but time to move on and out.

Let Brown play, if he gets burned, at least it won't because he has only one leg.

[HoustonRaven]

I usually don't get too ticked off at moves but this one has me steamed.

He had to know he was not going to play.

But good thing we have Josh Wils.... oh wait ....

[B-more Ravor]

Not sure of the rules, but I thought you can give a player an injury settlement anytime?

No, the team and the player have to agree to it. Usually, it's a number based on how long the team and player think the player is going to be unable to play. So, in this case, if they felt that Foxworth was going to be out until after week 8, he would get a settlement of the next 5 weeks of pay.

Most will agree to it when they still have a chance to play later in the season, as opposed to having the remainder of their season wiped out.

OTOH, if it's a season ending injury, there is usually never an injury settlement.

With Foxworth, it's also an issue of just sitting it out and collecting the rest of his $4.4M (obviously not an insubstantial amount). If he gives the bulk of that up, he loses money because he's only likely to get the veteran minimum from someone else (prorated, depending on when he eventually signs).

[TL24x7]

Official Announcement

RAVENS PLACE CB FOXWORTH ON IR, SIGN LB BURGESS



The Baltimore Ravens have placed CB Domonique Foxworth on Injured Reserve and signed LB Prescott Burgess to their 53-man roster.



Foxworth, who missed the entire 2010 campaign after undergoing surgery for a knee injury sustained during training camp, played in the first two games of 2011, posting two tackles. The seven-year veteran was inactive in last week’s win at St. Louis.



A sixth-round draft choice by Baltimore in 2007, the 6-foot-3, 253-pound Burgess has seen action in 37 career games. Entering his fifth NFL season, Burgess led the Ravens in special teams tackles in both 2010 (15) and 2009 (a career-high 34).

[BLSmokey]

Sheesh...CB depth is getting thin. We could really use a healthy Jimmy back.

I really wanted Leigh Bodden that offseason, but I figured Foxworth would be a solid Raven for the entirety of his contract.

Bummer.

[Jayc00]

About time. Yeah it was a bum signing, and dumb to try and play him this year, but time to move on and out.

Let Brown play, if he gets burned, at least it won't because he has only one leg.

:word

[GOTA]

No, the team and the player have to agree to it. Usually, it's a number based on how long the team and player think the player is going to be unable to play. So, in this case, if they felt that Foxworth was going to be out until after week 8, he would get a settlement of the next 5 weeks of pay.

Most will agree to it when they still have a chance to play later in the season, as opposed to having the remainder of their season wiped out.

OTOH, if it's a season ending injury, there is usually never an injury settlement.

With Foxworth, it's also an issue of just sitting it out and collecting the rest of his $4.4M (obviously not an insubstantial amount). If he gives the bulk of that up, he loses money because he's only likely to get the veteran minimum from someone else (prorated, depending on when he eventually signs).

Exactly. The only possible reason for Foxworth to agree to it would be if he thought he would come in and really impress with another team. Even healthy there is no way that would happen. Foxworth has never been a quality starter in this league.

I still say the team got charmed by his great personality, his intelligence and the fact that he is local when they signed him. He has never had more than nickle talent.

[Carey]

They really screwed the pooch by not putting him on PUP when TC started. Had they done so, they could have kept him there til week 6 and maybe by then, he would have been ready.

That would have saved them the roster spot, that they've now decided they need/want.

While i agree you can see their side of it as well, who would have thought that over a year removed from the surgery he'd still say things like his knee "hurts like hell"? Plus around him was a rookie, a guy who was further removed from an ACL that play declined the previous year, a guy who had been the 5th corner/ST guy, and Chris Carr. You could see why they may have been holding out hope and were willing to gamble and be on the hook for this years salary.

[Ravenswintitle]

They obviously didn't know the extent of his injury or they would've acted in time to avoid guaranteeing his salary.

Sucks but at least he is not out there getting burned like in TN

[B-more Ravor]

While i agree you can see their side of it as well, who would have thought that over a year removed from the surgery he'd still say things like his knee "hurts like hell"? Plus around him was a rookie, a guy who was further removed from an ACL that play declined the previous year, a guy who had been the 5th corner/ST guy, and Chris Carr. You could see why they may have been holding out hope and were willing to gamble and be on the hook for this years salary.

I would agree that they probably did expect that he would be ready - and with a normal offseason, he most likely would have been ready - but they still could have put him on PUP to be sure about it. Then, he could have rehabbed for a week or so and given it more of a test without any lasting repercussions.

It would have been a more prudent course and I have a feeling they will be more cautious about such things in the future.

[Flipping Birdie]

Foxworth has never been a quality starter in this league... He has never had more than nickle talent.

I'll disagree. He was a quality starter for the second half of 2009. Still, half a season doesn't justify $21 million.

[Justlovemybirds]

About time. Yeah it was a bum signing, and dumb to try and play him this year, but time to move on and out.

Let Brown play, if he gets burned, at least it won't because he has only one leg.

:word


They obviously didn't know the extent of his injury or they would've acted in time to avoid guaranteeing his salary.

Sucks but at least he is not out there getting burned like in TN

:word

I have a hard time believing that they knew ahead of time his injury was going to be this bad and blatantly allowed him to start the season on the active roster thereby guaranteeing his salary, its like the extent of the injury was a surprise to even Foxy himself. Cap is right, time to move on to the next man up (Chykie?).

[chicagoravensfan]

Question: what is the point of this move if they are unable to reach an injury settlement? If they are going to have to pay the entire salary and then cut him at the end of the year, why not just keep him inactive for the immediate future and see if he recovers enough in a month or two to be injury insurance?

[Honest John]

Sucks but at least he is not out there getting burned like in TN

The silver lining.

[GOTA]

Question: what is the point of this move if they are unable to reach an injury settlement? If they are going to have to pay the entire salary and then cut him at the end of the year, why not just keep him inactive for the immediate future and see if he recovers enough in a month or two to be injury insurance?

The point is to open up a roster spot. With Nakamura out for a while they now can add someone for special teams.

[BLSmokey]

The point is to open up a roster spot

Indeed...the immortal Prescott Burgess.

[Jeremiah W]

That is too bad. Foxworth looked like a good signing down the stretch in '09, but then he got injured so it was not the best use of the money. Still not every loss was a bad gamble. It was a huge need, and Foxworth was a pretty safe investment in a very dangerous game.

I do not think he is done though, and maybe not even done as a Raven. He is only getting vet min next year, so he may as well get it here.

[GOTA]

I'll disagree. He was a quality starter for the second half of 2009. Still, half a season doesn't justify $21 million.

The Broncos traded him to the Falcons for a 7th round draft pick the year before the Ravens signed him. So the Ravens didn't think he was a worth a 6th round pick in 08 but worth top starting CB money in 09? I never understood that.

[GOTA]

That is too bad. Foxworth looked like a good signing down the stretch in '09, but then he got injured so it was not the best use of the money. Still not every loss was a bad gamble. It was a huge need, and Foxworth was a pretty safe investment in a very dangerous game.

I do not think he is done though, and maybe not even done as a Raven. He is only getting vet min next year, so he may as well get it here.

He gets over $5 million next season, not vet minimum.

[wickedsolo]

2 years of IR means he won't be a Raven next year. It's a bummer, but he was getting torched out there. Good thing we resigned Carr.

[Jeremiah W]

Indeed...the immortal Prescott Burgess.

Maybe I am the only one, but I was sad to see Burgess go in the first place. He is very good on special teams, and I wanted to see what he could do in the OLB rotation before letting him go.

[NCRAVEN]

The Broncos traded him to the Falcons for a 7th round draft pick the year before the Ravens signed him. So the Ravens didn't think he was a worth a 6th round pick in 08 but worth top starting CB money in 09? I never understood that.

I still have images in my mind of him getting burned in the playoffs by the colts, at least I am pretty sure that was him and I believe it was back to back years.

I thought , why the hell did we sign that guy. In the second half of 09 he did start to show some potential and at one point was the teams most consistent corner.

[Jeremiah W]

He gets over $5 million next season, not vet minimum.

He will not, and really never was going to see that money even had he been able to play this year.

The Ravens will cut him (if he does not accept the pay cut) and then when he is deciding which vet min offer to take, it seems to make sense to stick with the Ravens if there is still that option.

[BLSmokey]

Maybe I am the only one, but I was sad to see Burgess go in the first place. He is very good on special teams, and I wanted to see what he could do in the OLB rotation before letting him go.

I like picking up Burgess for special teams with Naka out a few weeks.

I don't see any reason to stick him in the OLB rotation though.

[B-more Ravor]

I am hoping/expecting that this means that they are pretty confident that Jimmy Smith will be back after the Bye.

I'm not particularly comfortable going forward with Chykie Brown or Danny Gorrer as the 4th CB.

[wickedsolo]

Sheesh...CB depth is getting thin. We could really use a healthy Jimmy back.

I really wanted Leigh Bodden that offseason, but I figured Foxworth would be a solid Raven for the entirety of his contract.

Bummer.

Yea, Jabari Greer or Bodden was who I wanted as well.

[BIGBALL]

Wonder if there is anyone out there available in a trade, Like Wilson last year?

[Jayc00]

I know he was tied up with the lockout stuff but he got hurt in TC and had a full year to recover. What the hell was he doing? (or wasn't he doing)

[Jeremiah W]

I like picking up Burgess for special teams with Naka out a few weeks.

I don't see any reason to stick him in the OLB rotation though.

Someone needs to give JJ some pass rushing snaps off. If Kindle is not good enough on special teams to be active, maybe Burgess can get the reps.

[Tyrian]

Does make you wonder if they'll make any move before the trade deadline.

Even if cutting Foxworth doesn't really make us any worse as he was clearly hobbled and was awful in Tennessee, the secondary is on thin ice. It's okay for the moment, but another injury really will leave a gaping hole. I hope the Burgess signing does signify that Jimmy should be fine for the Texans, as while Burgess is a good ST player, I didn't think we had much of a hole there that needed plugging.

Not sure if they'll risk leaving it to sort it with another CB drafted next year, there's already going to be a few needs next year probably (depending on retirements etc).

[goodandfast]

Does make you wonder if they'll make any move before the trade deadline.

Even if cutting Foxworth doesn't really make us any worse as he was clearly hobbled and was awful in Tennessee, the secondary is on thin ice. It's okay for the moment, but another injury really will leave a gaping hole. I hope the Burgess signing does signify that Jimmy should be fine for the Texans, as while Burgess is a good ST player, I didn't think we had much of a hole there that needed plugging.

Not sure if they'll risk leaving it to sort it with another CB drafted next year, there's already going to be a few needs next year probably (depending on retirements etc).

I might be mistaken, but in season trades of players that project to have any kind of impact are of the rarest sort. In fact, I kind of only remember Ravens trading Burgess (ironically) to Pats in season recently.

[Jeremiah W]

Does make you wonder if they'll make any move before the trade deadline.

Even if cutting Foxworth doesn't really make us any worse as he was clearly hobbled and was awful in Tennessee, the secondary is on thin ice. It's okay for the moment, but another injury really will leave a gaping hole. I hope the Burgess signing does signify that Jimmy should be fine for the Texans, as while Burgess is a good ST player, I didn't think we had much of a hole there that needed plugging.

Not sure if they'll risk leaving it to sort it with another CB drafted next year, there's already going to be a few needs next year probably (depending on retirements etc).

Maybe they make a trade, but for who? Those Wilson deals do not come around every year.
The Eagles may be willing to deal a CB for some OL and LB help, but I do not really see any other potential trading partners.

[PurpleRulz]

They really screwed the pooch by not putting him on PUP when TC started. Had they done so, they could have kept him there til week 6 and maybe by then, he would have been ready.

That would have saved them the roster spot, that they've now decided they need/want.

Maybe his lockout involvement caused for sensitive movement in this case.

[B-more Ravor]

Yeah, I wouldn't expect too much from the trade market. If you recall, they traded for Josh Wilson a couple of weeks before the season started last year, and by his own admission, it took him awhile to get acclimated to the D.

I think we just have to hope for a quick return to health for Jimmy Smith and no further injuries to an DBs. If we have Williams, Webb, Carr and Smith as our top 4, that's about all we can really ask for.

[Carey]

I would agree that they probably did expect that he would be ready - and with a normal offseason, he most likely would have been ready - but they still could have put him on PUP to be sure about it. Then, he could have rehabbed for a week or so and given it more of a test without any lasting repercussions.

It would have been a more prudent course and I have a feeling they will be more cautious about such things in the future.

Definetely agree!

[PurpleRulz]

What about re-signingfabian washington?

[Tyrian]

Maybe they make a trade, but for who? Those Wilson deals do not come around every year.
The Eagles may be willing to deal a CB for some OL and LB help, but I do not really see any other potential trading partners.

Even if they did make a trade, it probably wouldn't be for a Wilson.

Just someone to be a bit better (or more experienced) than Brown and Gorrer at the very most. I'm sure they're confident with Carr, Williams and Smith as the main three. If they weren't, it's too late to do a whole lot about it without trading too much.

That said, only speculating. They are more likely to hope the secondary recovers without too much damage. No team is without some form of weakness, after all.

[HoustonRaven]

What about re-signingfabian washington?

Isn't he on the Saints roster?

[StingerNLG]

I am hoping/expecting that this means that they are pretty confident that Jimmy Smith will be back after the Bye.

I'm not particularly comfortable going forward with Chykie Brown or Danny Gorrer as the 4th CB.

That or one of them has been standing out at practice. Apparently that's what is determining playing time in-game.

[GOTA]

Maybe his lockout involvement caused for sensitive movement in this case.

:word

It's very possible. I also think that the fact that Foxworth really is a good guy is part of it. It's not like Gaither saying he doesn't feel good. Foxworth is someone that the team is going to believe and listen to.

[Dragz]

It was a dumb signing to start with. When Ozzie said that Foxworth was Chris's REPLACEMENT, I said "Who is Dominique Foxworth?" Paying him like a #1 corner, doesn't mean he's going to play up to that level. One of Ozzie's moves that made me :229031_confused2:. USUALLY you pay a free agent based on their history, not their potential, you pay draftees based on potential. Oh well, next man up...

[Captain Silver]

This is a direct result of not signing Ngata earlier, we lost an opportunity to throw more money at Josh Wilson because we didn't know what our financials were going to be.

Get Deion back on the phone :D

[GOTA]

Yeah, I wouldn't expect too much from the trade market. If you recall, they traded for Josh Wilson a couple of weeks before the season started last year, and by his own admission, it took him awhile to get acclimated to the D.

I think we just have to hope for a quick return to health for Jimmy Smith and no further injuries to an DBs. If we have Williams, Webb, Carr and Smith as our top 4, that's about all we can really ask for.

You see Frank Walker stinking it up for the Cowboys on Monday Night? He's proof that you just can't find decent Corners. Anyone with a business card that reads CB and a pulse is going to get on a NFL roster.

[Carey]

Isn't he on the Saints roster?

Yeah but they put him on IR too....OT but with the recent developments does anyone think Kindle plays sunday? Looking at it on paper Burgess would seem to replace Nakamura on ST but do they dress him on Sunday after just resigning him today?

[QuothDaRaven]

I hate to reference a Mike Preston article, but he just posted over on the Sun that Dannell Ellerbe has a hamstring injury. So Burgess' signing may be for LB depth as well as just special teams. Regarding the secondary, I think Webb should take Santonio Holmes, Williams on Plaxico, Carr on Mason.. at least when we're playing man. Bernard Pollard should be in heat-seeking missile mode for the majority of this game, aimed squarely at Sanchez (and his nose).

[duffybr]

Maybe his lockout involvement caused for sensitive movement in this case.

They ma yhave gotten some feedback from the commisioner that he didn't want to see the highest profile player in the talks get cut weeks after the settlement.

If Cedric Benson and T. Pryor are a big deal imagine what that would have been.
Maybe the league owes the Ravens a favor. Maybe they could not tell until he actually tried to go. Plus J Smith was out for awhile so they may not have wanted to be 2 starters down to start the season.

Foxy was ok after he cought on here- I think he had come from a very different defense. AT the time we badly needed a corner and he was the best available.

He is also regarded by some a s a likely successor to Dee Smith so the team may be looking ahead with a little goodwill in their pocket. Shit if they can pay Billick 15 mil to go away they might as well throw Foxy a couple Mil

[B-more Ravor]

The timing of this move has me wondering a bit.

With the Bye coming after next week, why cut him now? Why not make him inactive this week and give him essentially 3 more weeks to see if his knee responds better. As bad as he's been, I'd still take his experience over Brown or Gorrer anytime.

So, why now?

Do they really need a special teamer like Burgess that much this week?!?

Based on everything that's been reported, this isn't a season-ending injury, it's just that he's not ready yet.

Does Foxworth really want to have the plug pulled on his season - and, potentially, his career? If he gets healthy before the end of the year, I'd think he'd rather have a chance to play and show something, otherwise, there's no question the best he's going to get in the vet minimum. If he does show something, he'll likely get something more.

So, again, why now?

I could very well be wrong, but I'm thinking an injury settlement is coming. They've done this before where they've released a guy, leaving the door open to re-signing him later. So, let's say they pay him for a couple more weeks via an injury settlement - knowing that they they are going to be paying him the same amount if they keep him on the 53 anyway. Then, if the knee responses, as he hopes, they can re-sign him later when he can actually contribute.

If the knee isn't ready, then they go a different direction or if they feel they don't need him, oh well.

Not saying it's going to happen, but I do think there's a chance that this is what they may be thinking (or perhaps, it's just wishful thinking on my part that there's going to be an injury settlement).

[Jeremiah W]

It was a dumb signing to start with. When Ozzie said that Foxworth was Chris's REPLACEMENT, I said "Who is Dominique Foxworth?" Paying him like a #1 corner, doesn't mean he's going to play up to that level. One of Ozzie's moves that made me :229031_confused2:. USUALLY you pay a free agent based on their history, not their potential, you pay draftees based on potential. Oh well, next man up...

He was a UFA and that is what the market is for CBs. Foxworth got a lot less than D. Hall and Nate Clements, but I doubt that the Ravens offered him more than other teams were. It just did not work out because of injury.

[Corey]

I wanted Foxworth gone during the black Monday cuts. He was a waste of a roster spot and of cap space.

This move is questionable to me because we are replacing him with a LB. Seriously? You lose TWO more DB's and you sign a LB that is a special teams ace and brings nothing more to the table?

I am wondering if a trade is on the horizon. Sergio Kindle or Danelle Ellerbe for a CB?

[Beezo]

In related news.. The Ravens are having tryouts for CB at The Castle Thursday afternoon. :kewl:

[QuothDaRaven]

Again, Ellerbe apparently has a hamstring injury (per Preston on the Sun). The Burgess signing seems to be for LB depth as well as special teams.

[Jeremiah W]

The timing of this move has me wondering a bit.

With the Bye coming after next week, why cut him now? Why not make him inactive this week and give him essentially 3 more weeks to see if his knee responds better. As bad as he's been, I'd still take his experience over Brown or Gorrer anytime.

So, why now?

Do they really need a special teamer like Burgess that much this week?!?

Does Foxworth really want to have the plug pulled on his season - and, potentially, his career? If he gets healthy before the end of the year, I'd think he'd rather have a chance to play and show something, otherwise, there's no question the best he's going to get in the vet minimum. If he does show something, he'll likely get something more.

Based on everything that's been reported, this isn't a season-ending injury, it's just that he's not ready yet.

So, again, why now?

I could very well be wrong, but I'm thinking an injury settlement is coming. They've done this before where they've released a guy, leaving the door open to re-signing him later. So, let's say they pay him for a couple more weeks via an injury settlement - knowing that they they are going to be paying him the same amount if they keep him on the 53 anyway. Then, if the knee responses, as he hopes, they can re-sign him later when he can actually contribute.

If the knee isn't ready, then they go a different direction or if they feel they don't need him, oh well.

Not saying it's going to happen, but I do think there's a chance that this is what they may be thinking.

I suspect there will be a second surgury or something since the knee was not improving. Just resting it may not have been enough. Maybe he just needs a lot of rehab, but I doubt they would shut him down for the season if there was a decent chance of him bouncing back to form even at the end of he year. They had to pay him either way, and the 53rd roster spot is not filled with a promising prospect or anything.

[GOTA]

Again, Ellerbe apparently has a hamstring injury (per Preston on the Sun). The Burgess signing seems to be for LB depth as well as special teams.

That makes sense

[B-more Ravor]

Again, Ellerbe apparently has a hamstring injury (per Preston on the Sun). The Burgess signing seems to be for LB depth as well as special teams.

Burgess is an OLB, while Ellerbe is an ILB. They have a Bye next week. Barring a lot more injuries at LB, it's highly unlikely that Burgess sees the field on D - inside or outside - especially this week.

I guess it depends on the severity of the injury to Ellerbe, but I don't see Burgess as a replacement for him and hopefully Ellerbe is fine by 10/16.

So, I think it's much more of a ST move than anything else at this point.

[BcRaven]

This may be coming a bit late (due to my mother-in-law having a stroke, and not being able to post), but I still stand by my feeling that Jimmy Smith NEVER should have been on Special Teams. I saw Smith, Webb, and C. Wms in a 3 man rotation @ CB. Why did Harbs/Rosberg expose him (Smith - 1st round draft choice - potential starting CB) to this unnecessary danger? ... Bc

[JAB1985]

C'mon guys, the fact that Foxworth was a union official had literally nothing to do with keeping him on the roster. Hes a year removed from the injury, nobody expected him to be this far behind. As much as he did for the lockout he can also thank it for possibly ruining his career as well. The timing with Jimmy down and Carr just getting back tells me the coaches have seen enough of Brown and Jimmy's recovery to feel safe pulling this move.

I remember watching Foxworth with the Broncos and recall him standing out on that D and being miffed as to why they traded him for nothing. The Ravens definitely overpaid him, but he did show potential. He was never the greatest cover guy and relied heavily on his speed, which unfortunately this knee injury robbed him of. I wish him well and a healthy recovery. He probably wont be back next year but if he is (and healthier), ill welcome him as quality depth, hopefully for a discount.

[ravenwoman]

An ACL is a tricky injury. Some people come back 100% and others never really recover. There are different ways of repairing an ACL and a lot depends on the skillset of the orthopaedic surgeon. No matter what, your knee is never like it was before the injury. His career may be over.

[Peterman]

This may be coming a bit late (due to my mother-in-law having a stroke, and not being able to post), but I still stand by my feeling that Jimmy Smith NEVER should have been on Special Teams. I saw Smith, Webb, and C. Wms in a 3 man rotation @ CB. Why did Harbs/Rosberg expose him (Smith - 1st round draft choice - potential starting CB) to this unnecessary danger? ... Bc

Good question, and also why is one of your starting CBs returning punts? I have been asking this for a year or two now...

[Honest John]

The timing of this move has me wondering a bit.

With the Bye coming after next week, why cut him now? Why not make him inactive this week and give him essentially 3 more weeks to see if his knee responds better. As bad as he's been, I'd still take his experience over Brown or Gorrer anytime.

So, why now?

Do they really need a special teamer like Burgess that much this week?!?

Based on everything that's been reported, this isn't a season-ending injury, it's just that he's not ready yet.

Does Foxworth really want to have the plug pulled on his season - and, potentially, his career? If he gets healthy before the end of the year, I'd think he'd rather have a chance to play and show something, otherwise, there's no question the best he's going to get in the vet minimum. If he does show something, he'll likely get something more.

So, again, why now?

I could very well be wrong, but I'm thinking an injury settlement is coming. They've done this before where they've released a guy, leaving the door open to re-signing him later. So, let's say they pay him for a couple more weeks via an injury settlement - knowing that they they are going to be paying him the same amount if they keep him on the 53 anyway. Then, if the knee responses, as he hopes, they can re-sign him later when he can actually contribute.

If the knee isn't ready, then they go a different direction or if they feel they don't need him, oh well.

Not saying it's going to happen, but I do think there's a chance that this is what they may be thinking (or perhaps, it's just wishful thinking on my part that there's going to be an injury settlement).

Ravor, what would be the cap effect, this year and next, of an injury settlement this year?

[ballhawk]

i saw this coming when they deactivated him last week. foxy might not want to play football anymore. he is a smart guy and might want to take his career in another direction. he has that whole union rep/lockout thing on his resume now.

[B-more Ravor]

Ravor, what would be the cap effect, this year and next, of an injury settlement this year?

Any reduction in his $4.4M salary this year would be credited against this years cap.

No matter what happens (injury settlement or release next year), he'll still count $3M in dead money against next years cap. They can't avoid that at this point.

That said, based on Harbaugh's comments, it sounds like an injury settlement was wishful thinking on my part.

[Dragz]

He was a UFA and that is what the market is for CBs. Foxworth got a lot less than D. Hall and Nate Clements, but I doubt that the Ravens offered him more than other teams were. It just did not work out because of injury.

Foxworth wasn't signed to our squad in the same year that Clements was signed to the 49ers, he also wasn't signed the same year that D Hall was signed to the Redskins. He got a lot less money because at the time of his signing, he had 35 passes defensed with 4 INTs, whereas Clements (at the time Foxworth was signed to our team) had 84 PDs/29 INTs and D Hall was at 57 PDs/22 INTs. The difference in money, was difference in talent based on difference of HISTORY.

[Mike B]

Just saw Hensley's tweet. I can't believe they didn't work out an injury settlement before the season started. For what they paid Foxworth is the worst free agent signing in Ravens history. Even if the release him next season he will still have been paid $21.6 million!

That is the chance you take with any signing FA or in house. I am not sure he can be called the worst. Grbac and Searcy jump to mind right away. It happens, FOx seems like a high integrity type guy, so I think if he could play he would.

[Mike B]

I usually don't get too ticked off at moves but this one has me steamed.

He had to know he was not going to play.

But good thing we have Josh Wils.... oh wait ....

How is it his fault. Did you expect him to retire, so the Ravens save money. We would still have gotten hit with the pro-rated portion. Frankly, I really do not see him and Wilson related.

[GOTA]

That is the chance you take with any signing FA or in house. I am not sure he can be called the worst. Grbac and Searcy jump to mind right away. It happens, FOx seems like a high integrity type guy, so I think if he could play he would.

Grbac and Searcy didn't cost anywhere close to that money. Absolutely agree with you about his character. I'm sure he's taking this much harder than anyone else.

[BcRaven]

Good question, and also why is one of your starting CBs returning punts? I have been asking this for a year or two now...

Yeah Pete, we all remember when Webb was a rookie, and just starting to come on as a strong CB, when they put him on ST. IMO this is bad decision making... Bc

[wickedsolo]

Chykie Brown has been pretty good in the playing time he's received.


I just hope this keeps Webb off of kick and punt returns.


If David Reed is healthy, let him handle the duties. If not, give them to LaQuan.

[Honest John]

Any reduction in his $4.4M salary this year would be credited against this years cap.

No matter what happens (injury settlement or release next year), he'll still count $3M in dead money against next years cap. They can't avoid that at this point.

That said, based on Harbaugh's comments, it sounds like an injury settlement was wishful thinking on my part.

Thanks for clearing that up. I guess we may as well stop beating our heads against the wall over this one.

[The Excellector]

Just saw Hensley's tweet. I can't believe they didn't work out an injury settlement before the season started. For what they paid Foxworth is the worst free agent signing in Ravens history. Even if the release him next season he will still have been paid $21.6 million!

Perhaps, Dominique Foxworth did not want an injury settlement worked out.

[Mike B]

Chykie Brown has been pretty good in the playing time he's received.


I just hope this keeps Webb off of kick and punt returns.


If David Reed is healthy, let him handle the duties. If not, give them to LaQuan.

Has Brown been active yet?

[The Excellector]

The reality is that guys like Dominique Foxworth and Josh Wilson are not the best fit for this defensive system anyway. Guys like Jimmy Smith, Cary Williams and Chykie Brown are.

As for special teams, some starters have to play. Take your pick, unless you want the Ravens solid special teams unit to look like San Diego's from last year.

[GOTA]

Perhaps, Dominique Foxworth did not want an injury settlement worked out.

Before the first game of the year they could have flat out cut him and not paid him the $4.4 million he would have made. Usually what happens is the player would rather take the injury settlement rather than get cut and get nothing. Especially since they are injured and unlikely to get much elsewhere.

Once that first game was played all the leverage the Ravens had was gone. Now that $4.4 million becomes guaranteed. Foxworth now is the one with the hammer because the only incentive he has to take an injury settlement is if he wants to play somewhere else. Even if gets better he's going to get prorated league minimum. That amount plus the injury settlement wouldn't even be within a million dollars of what he gets by just staying on IR this year.

The Ravens blew this one.

[houstonravensfan]

I don't care about the money. It is simply beyond rational comprehension, much less intelligent discussion: At $4.4 mil per year, Foxworth is nowhere near the highest paid player in the NFL -- and he still gets/would get much more PER GAME than the average American makes in THREE YEARS.

Bad decision by Oz/FO? Yes. So now we have proof positive that Oz is a human being. I can live with that knowledge.

I do have two gripes:
1) kick/punt returner are very high risk positions. Put a rookie or second stringer there. LaQuan is a perfect choice. A starter returning punts and/or kicks? . . . well I give you Webb and Jimmy as Exhibits A and B.
2) Burgess is a poor choice: after several years with the team he can not crack the starting lineup; he's not even a rotational player. And what little every-down skill he has is at OLB, not ILB (replacing Ellerbe). I think ANY CB with NFL experience would have been a better choice. (NO DBs available at all? Then I retract #2)

[BcRaven]

2) Burgess is a poor choice: after several years with the team he can not crack the starting lineup; he's not even a rotational player. And what little every-down skill he has is at OLB, not ILB (replacing Ellerbe). I think ANY CB with NFL experience would have been a better choice. (NO DBs available at all? Then I retract #2)

Considering that Foxworth was not playing at all, and is on IR, at least Burgess is a solid STeams player. Point is to get something, when nothing is the option... Bc

[B-more Ravor]

Before the first game of the year they could have flat out cut him and not paid him the $4.4 million he would have made. Usually what happens is the player would rather take the injury settlement rather than get cut and get nothing. Especially since they are injured and unlikely to get much elsewhere.


Once he started talking about his knee still bothering him, I don't think releasing him was an option. They likely would have faced a grievance because you can't release a player who is hurt and I don't think offering him an injury settlement and then cutting him would have supported their position much.

I think they blew it by not putting him on PUP, but after that, I'm not sure what else they really could have done.

[The Excellector]

Before the first game of the year they could have flat out cut him and not paid him the $4.4 million he would have made. Usually what happens is the player would rather take the injury settlement rather than get cut and get nothing. Especially since they are injured and unlikely to get much elsewhere.

Once that first game was played all the leverage the Ravens had was gone. Now that $4.4 million becomes guaranteed. Foxworth now is the one with the hammer because the only incentive he has to take an injury settlement is if he wants to play somewhere else. Even if gets better he's going to get prorated league minimum. That amount plus the injury settlement wouldn't even be within a million dollars of what he gets by just staying on IR this year.

The Ravens blew this one.

What usually happens is not what always happens. Why would the Ravens outright cut Foxworth at the beginning of the season? He had a year to recover from the injury. Wasn't that what we were hearing? That Foxworth would be a starter, and should have been ready to go?

[baltimore_hokie]

Joselio Hanson would make a lot of sense right now.

[wickedsolo]

Has Brown been active yet?

I was more referring to what we saw of him this pre-season.

[StingerNLG]

1) kick/punt returner are very high risk positions. Put a rookie or second stringer there. LaQuan is a perfect choice. A starter returning punts and/or kicks? . . . well I give you Webb and Jimmy as Exhibits A and B.

Isn't Smith a rookie? David Reed is a 4th or 5th stringer.

I still don't understand this rationale. Look around the league. Joshua Cribbs returned kicks. Devin Hester in Chicago. Percy Harvin, Darren Sproles, Antonio Cromartie, DeShaun Jackson , Ted Ginn Jr.

In Philly Ellis Hobb returned kicks last year. A few other starting players did it last year too. Jericho Cotchery, Nate Burlson, Reggie Bush, Fred Jackson, Wes Welker, Eddie Royal.

This goes back years. Ray Lewis and Chris McAlister played special teams if you remember on the field goal unit. Terrence McGee returned kicks for the Bills. Before they came here, Chris Carr and Josh Wilson did it for their respective teams. So this isn't a "Ravens coaching" issue. It's done throughout the league.

You put your best person out there you think has a chance to score with the ball in his hand. Otherwise, they could pay you or me a couple hundred thousand bucks a year to stand there and fair-catch kicks. Are you really going to stick Chykie Brown back with the chance he'll do nothing for us for field position because he's not good enough? Do you want to take another chance with a Yamon Figures or Lamont Brightful back there?

We have players that injure themselves walking their dog, falling down steps, or jumping in celebration after a field goal. It happens. I just don't understand the big problem is all.

[B-more Ravor]

Isn't Smith a rookie? David Reed is a 4th or 5th stringer.

I still don't understand this rationale. Look around the league. Joshua Cribbs returned kicks. Devin Hester in Chicago. Percy Harvin, Darren Sproles, Antonio Cromartie, DeShaun Jackson , Ted Ginn Jr.

In Philly Ellis Hobb returned kicks last year. A few other starting players did it last year too. Jericho Cotchery, Nate Burlson, Reggie Bush, Fred Jackson, Wes Welker, Eddie Royal.

This goes back years. Ray Lewis and Chris McAlister played special teams if you remember on the field goal unit. Terrence McGee returned kicks for the Bills. Before they came here, Chris Carr and Josh Wilson did it for their respective teams. So this isn't a "Ravens coaching" issue. It's done throughout the league.


:word

[Ravenswintitle]

They were talking about Foxworth on SiriusNFL this morning - praising him for the great work he did representing the NFLPA in the negotiations. They said he sacrificed all off season rehab for the good of his fellow player.

While they may be great, as a Raven fan, I don't like it. It's a big reason he did not improve this year and had to be placed on IR.

[GOTA]

They were talking about Foxworth on SiriusNFL this morning - praising him for the great work he did representing the NFLPA in the negotiations. They said he sacrificed all off season rehab for the good of his fellow player.

While they may be great, as a Raven fan, I don't like it. It's a big reason he did not improve this year and had to be placed on IR.

If that's true he should sacrifice his pay.

[Ravenswintitle]

Pretty much has to be true. If he was going to meetings every day he couldn't be in rehab. While they were going on about how 'unselfish' he is for placing players above himself, I see it another way.

[Peterman]

Isn't Smith a rookie? David Reed is a 4th or 5th stringer.

I still don't understand this rationale. Look around the league. Joshua Cribbs returned kicks. Devin Hester in Chicago. Percy Harvin, Darren Sproles, Antonio Cromartie, DeShaun Jackson , Ted Ginn Jr.

In Philly Ellis Hobb returned kicks last year. A few other starting players did it last year too. Jericho Cotchery, Nate Burlson, Reggie Bush, Fred Jackson, Wes Welker, Eddie Royal.

This goes back years. Ray Lewis and Chris McAlister played special teams if you remember on the field goal unit. Terrence McGee returned kicks for the Bills. Before they came here, Chris Carr and Josh Wilson did it for their respective teams. So this isn't a "Ravens coaching" issue. It's done throughout the league.

You put your best person out there you think has a chance to score with the ball in his hand. Otherwise, they could pay you or me a couple hundred thousand bucks a year to stand there and fair-catch kicks. Are you really going to stick Chykie Brown back with the chance he'll do nothing for us for field position because he's not good enough? Do you want to take another chance with a Yamon Figures or Lamont Brightful back there?

We have players that injure themselves walking their dog, falling down steps, or jumping in celebration after a field goal. It happens. I just don't understand the big problem is all.

I just don't buy your theory of putting the best person out there. If that was the case, Ed Reed would be returning punts and kickoffs. But, they don't want to risk injuring the starting safety. So, how is Webb's situation any different? Sure, Reed is more important to the team than Webb. But I think we can all agree that Reed is a more dynamic returner/playmaker. Ed Reed can get hurt walking his dog so who cares if he returns punts, right? I hope you see the fallacy in that logic.

So, obviously they are drawing the line somewhere. I have to think Torrey Smith might even be a better returner, he has better hands and is faster.

[Captain Silver]

I just don't buy your theory of putting the best person out there. If that was the case, Ed Reed would be returning punts and kickoffs. But, they don't want to risk injuring the starting safety. So, how is Webb's situation any different? Sure, Reed is more important to the team than Webb. But I think we can all agree that Reed is a more dynamic returner/playmaker. Ed Reed can get hurt walking his dog so who cares if he returns punts, right? I hope you see the fallacy in that logic.

So, obviously they are drawing the line somewhere. I have to think Torrey Smith might even be a better returner, he has better hands and is faster.

I'm with Peterman on this. Find a ST guy or rookie to do the job. Our secondary is a MASH unit. Make someone specialize, it isn't worth the risk to one of the 22 starters.

[StingerNLG]

I just don't buy your theory of putting the best person out there. If that was the case, Ed Reed would be returning punts and kickoffs.

And he has. But he isn't the best person to do it according to the coaches, or he would be.

Again, Ray Lewis and Chris McAlister played special teams.


But, they don't want to risk injuring the starting safety. So, how is Webb's situation any different? Sure, Reed is more important to the team than Webb. But I think we can all agree that Reed is a more dynamic returner/playmaker. Ed Reed can get hurt walking his dog so who cares if he returns punts, right? I hope you see the fallacy in that logic.

There is no fallacy there. The bottom line is the same. And teams around the league follow the exact same thing. So pretending it's just an issue the Ravens have because Jimmy Smith and Lardarius Webb happened to get injured on ST doesn't make it any less of a fact that they are out there because the coaches believe they are the best men for the job. Just like the other teams do.

[houstonravensfan]

I'm with Peterman on this. Find a ST guy or rookie to do the job. Our secondary is a MASH unit. Make someone specialize, it isn't worth the risk to one of the 22 starters.

That is my position, but I guess we just need to agree to disagree.

[Peterman]

And he has. But he isn't the best person to do it according to the coaches, or he would be.

Again, Ray Lewis and Chris McAlister played special teams.

There is no fallacy there. The bottom line is the same. And teams around the league follow the exact same thing. So pretending it's just an issue the Ravens have because Jimmy Smith and Lardarius Webb happened to get injured on ST doesn't make it any less of a fact that they are out there because the coaches believe they are the best men for the job. Just like the other teams do.

So if Webb gets injured Sunday night and Smith isn't ready for Houston, you are OK with a starting DB unit of Williams, Carr, and Gorrer/Brown? Just doesn't make sense to me with the limited CB depth we have. I'd much prefer LaQuan Williams who has shown playmaking potential, and is having trouble getting snaps on offense.

Ray and Ed don't play special teams anymore (Ed only plays when it is critical). Neither does Suggs, Ray Rice, Boldin, or Evans. How come? Because these are key playmakers who we can't afford to lose. Webb should be in this category as he is our starting CB.

[Paintballguy]

Desean Jackson returns kicks/punts.

Just sayin

[GOTA]

Tim Brown and Deion Sanders were return men their entire careers.

[Peterman]

Tim Brown and Deion Sanders were return men their entire careers.

So then why don't the Ravens use Ray Rice or Ed Reed?

[StingerNLG]

So then why don't the Ravens use Ray Rice or Ed Reed?

THEY HAVE USED ED REED!!! Dude, he returned punts and kicks just like others have in this system. Not to mention the fact that Ed Reed is older now and not quite as fast; so obviously he's not returning kicks out of the endzone 106 yards. His position has nothing to do with it.

Again, your choices are these guys, or the Lamont Brightfuls and Yamon Figurs of the league. You can't have it both ways. And almost every team agrees.

[Peterman]

THEY HAVE USED ED REED!!! Dude, he returned punts and kicks just like others have in this system. Not to mention the fact that Ed Reed is older now and not quite as fast; so obviously he's not returning kicks out of the endzone 106 yards. His position has nothing to do with it.

Again, your choices are these guys, or the Lamont Brightfuls and Yamon Figurs of the league. You can't have it both ways. And almost every team agrees.

I know that they have used Ed Reed to return kicks before. Why not now? Because he lost a step? The guy is a playmaker. OK, forget about Reed, why not use Ray Rice? Probably because they want to keep him healthy and fresh, right?

[GOTA]

So then why don't the Ravens use Ray Rice or Ed Reed?

Because right now they aren't the best options. Reed is old and not nearly as elusive as he used to be and Rice has never returned. I'd have no problem with either of them doing it if they were asked to. They use Ngata and now possibly Suggs as lead blockers and no one seems to have an issue with it.

[ActualSpamBot]

Because Rice has never been a return man.

They put the guy who will do the best job back there. Period. Full stop. Argue otherwise all you want but you're basically saying that every NFL coach is stupid and you're not.

[ballhawk]

remember all those kicks that reed used to block. only problem i have now is that we are thin at corner, i do get nervous about webb returning kicks.

[Ravenswintitle]

Josh Cribbs, Devin Hester, etc.

[Peterman]

Because right now they aren't the best options. Reed is old and not nearly as elusive as he used to be and Rice has never returned. I'd have no problem with either of them doing it if they were asked to. They use Ngata and now possibly Suggs as lead blockers and no one seems to have an issue with it.

I definitely have a problem with using Ngata and Suggs as lead blockers. Sure, if you are in the playoffs, or a key game, and want to try something different, go for it. But to put Ngata in when up by 2-3 TDs against the Rams doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense to me.


Because Rice has never been a return man.

They put the guy who will do the best job back there. Period. Full stop. Argue otherwise all you want but you're basically saying that every NFL coach is stupid and you're not.

I'm not saying that at all. I am saying that I wouldn't have one of my starting CBs play on special teams when the team is already limited in terms of secondary depth. It would be one thing if we had a healthy Foxworth and Smith, but we don't. It's too big of a risk to take, IMO. Just because I don't agree with everything Harbs does doesn't mean I think he's stupid.

[ballhawk]

But to put Ngata in when up by 2-3 TDs against the Rams doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense to me.





no doubt, esp considering that ngata got hurt on the same kind of play last year. i was pissed. maybe they just wanted a td from him for that $20 mil check he just got. but he got a TD any way, so no more sending ngata out on passing routes, ok cameron..!!!

[NC Raven]

Well, if all Webb's gonna do on punts is run back and forth like a squirrel in the road and get snowed under by 4 tacklers, then just put LQ back there.

If Webb's going to run in a forward direction and actually get somewhere, maybe it's worth risking him. I don't see him taking jack-shit to the house, so why put him there when he's playing so well on defense? He ain't Deion, and he ain't Devin Hester. I'd rather let LQ fair catch 5 times and know I have Webb ready for defense.

If Webb was some kind of game changing return man, the argument for putting him out there would be better.

[GOTA]

I definitely have a problem with using Ngata and Suggs as lead blockers. Sure, if you are in the playoffs, or a key game, and want to try something different, go for it. But to put Ngata in when up by 2-3 TDs against the Rams doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense to me.



I'm not saying that at all. I am saying that I wouldn't have one of my starting CBs play on special teams when the team is already limited in terms of secondary depth. It would be one thing if we had a healthy Foxworth and Smith, but we don't. It's too big of a risk to take, IMO. Just because I don't agree with everything Harbs does doesn't mean I think he's stupid.

To me football is football. I don't see how doing one thing is any worse than doing others. I used to love watching AD run down the field as the biggest gunner in special teams history and then come in on defense. That dude run as fast as he could into the wedge.

Every single play NFL player can get hurt on every single play. These coaches only keep their jobs if they win. They're not going to take their star players and put them in a position to get hurt knowing those losses could cost them their jobs. I have never seen a real study done on the injury risk of special teams vs. other positions. If there was concrete evidence that proved a significant increase in injuries no coach would be playing star players on special teams.

[wickedsolo]

I'd like to see L. Williams get back there and return some kicks, same with punts.

The plan was for David Reed to be the main return guy.

[Lee Van Cleef]

Liked this by KVV:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/ravens/ravens-insider/bal-five-things-we-learned-in-ravens-win-over-the-jets-20111003,0,3853529.story?page=2


5. The Ravens probably won't miss Domonique Foxworth too much this year on the field, but it was shameful the way some Ravens fans celebrated the decision to put him on injured reserve.

I'm still not sure what to expect out of Cary Williams this year, but at times, he does look like he can be solid player. He didn't play well against Tennessee, but he has improved the last two weeks. Who knows how long Chris Carr's hamstring injury might linger, or when Jimmy Smith's ankle will be 100 percent, so one way or another, the Ravens are going to need Williams to play a big role.

But let's close this week's Five Things with a brief comment about Foxworth. I haven't spoken to him since the Ravens decided to shelve him for the year, but I can almost guarantee he's heartbroken. I still can't quite understand why the Ravens didn't put him on the PUP to start the year. It didn't make a lot of sense at the time, and it makes even less sense now looking back. I would be stunned if he's back with the Ravens next year.

The vitriol spewed at Foxworth, however, was really disheartening. If you were one of those people who called him "Foxworthless" and blamed him for the Ravens losing Josh Wilson, or called him the worst signing in Ravens history, then do me a favor and don't bother reading this column ever again. I'm serious.

Foxworth is one of the most honest, stand-up guys I've ever met, and he personally sacrificed a lot this year to help iron out the current labor agreement. He knew negotiations were making it difficult for him to properly rehab his knee, and that it might jeopardize his NFL career, but he also knew there was a bigger picture that was important.

I asked him once why getting involved with with the Players Union was so important to him, and he said it was because he really admired players who put the greater interests of the game ahead of their own. People always complain that NFL players these days are too aloof, and the don't hang out in their communities anymore and they don't care about anything beyond their next contract. Fans long for the days when you could bump into John Unitas at Club 4100 and buy him a drink. Well, Foxworth was one of the few players who you really could bump into at the mall and have a conversation with. (I know because I did.) Being a part of Baltimore actually matters to him.

Did the Ravens overpay him when he signed a $28 million contract three years ago? Of course they did. The market for corners was thin that year, and the Ravens took a chance he was about to blossom into a good player. He got off to a shaky start, but played well in the second half of the year in 2009. I'm surprised how many people forget the pass he picked off and returned for a touchdown against the Steelers late in the year. (Terrell Suggs clipped 25 yards behind the play, negating the score but not the pick, which is why I guess people are able to say Foxworth never made a single play with the Ravens.)

His knee injury, however, made it difficult to evaluate him beyond that. Cutting him, by the way, would not have meant the Ravens could have kept Josh Wilson. It just would have meant the portion of Foxworth's signing bonus slated to count against the 2012 cap would have been accelerated to count against the 2011 cap. So if you blame him for the Ravens losing Wilson, you need to have a better grasp of how the salary cap works. The Ravens could have saved some money, but not enough to keep Wilson.

I don't know if he'll ever get back to 100 percent, but I wish the Ravens would have been realistic about how to use him this year instead of putting him on Kenny Britt in single coverage. Foxworth, though, understands the NFL is about results, not what kind of guy you are, so I'm sure he'll be at peace with whatever comes next. If you're one of those people who dropped the phrase "Foxworthless," well, enjoy the next 10 years of prosperity that the NFL is about to enter. That may be his parting gift to the Ravens. Nothing worthless, not in the least, about that.

[GOTA]

Very soon no one is going to be reading the Sun since they will be charging for online content. So KVV will get his wish and even less will read him

[Captain Silver]

The vitriol spewed at Foxworth, however, was really disheartening. If you were one of those people who called him "Foxworthless" and blamed him for the Ravens losing Josh Wilson, or called him the worst signing in Ravens history, then do me a favor and don't bother reading this column ever again. I'm serious.

Personally Leon Searcy still holds the title in my book for worst signing, but if I so chose to say Foxworthless is the worst, it is my right.

A newspaper that is going to soon charge people to read their writers opinion should not have writers so quick to judge others for forming an opinion on fans opinion. No worries, I will never read your column, especially if I am charged and have to think and behave the way the columnist dictates.

[GOTA]

The vitriol spewed at Foxworth, however, was really disheartening. If you were one of those people who called him "Foxworthless" and blamed him for the Ravens losing Josh Wilson, or called him the worst signing in Ravens history, then do me a favor and don't bother reading this column ever again. I'm serious.

Personally Leon Searcy still holds the title in my book for worst signing, but if I so chose to say Foxworthless is the worst, it is my right.

A newspaper that is going to soon charge people to read their writers opinion should not have writers so quick to judge others for forming an opinion on fans opinion. No worries, I will never read your column, especially if I am charged and have to think and behave the way the columnist dictates.

:word

Agree 100%. If he's serious then I'll have to comply and not read his column ever again. No loss

[wickedsolo]

Who is KVV?

[KVV1]

:word

Agree 100%. If he's serious then I'll have to comply and not read his column ever again. No loss

If you were one of those people who thought calling him "Foxworthless" was clever, then I'm sure my ego will take a major hit at not having you read my stuff. My point is, there is a way to be critical of players, and there is way that crosses a line. A lot of people with keyboard courage say a lot of stuff here they'd never say to Domonique's face. Have a little perspective is all I'm asking. Calling him a bum? Saying he dogged his rehab because he had to work on the labor deal? That, to me, crosses a line.

I find it funny that people on these boards so often get angry with certain columnists for unfairly criticizing players, yet I've managed to make people angry for sticking up for someone I think is a good person. People defend rapists, murderers, dog fighters, etc., all the time in the NFL. If my rep is that I'll defend a good guy who happened to not work out as a great player, so be it.

He didn't play up to his contract. Oh well. That doesn't make him a bum and it doesn't make it worthless, and unlike some people, I don't have a problem putting my name to those opinions.

[wickedsolo]

If you were one of those people who thought calling him "Foxworthless" was clever, then I'm sure my ego will take a major hit at not having you read my stuff. My point is, there is a way to be critical of players, and there is way that crosses a line. A lot of people with keyboard courage say a lot of stuff here they'd never say to Domonique's face. Have a little perspective is all I'm asking. Calling him a bum? Saying he dogged his rehab because he had to work on the labor deal? That, to me, crosses a line.

I find it funny that people on these boards so often get angry with certain columnists for unfairly criticizing players, yet I've managed to make people angry for sticking up for someone I think is a good person. People defend rapists, murderers, dog fighters, etc., all the time in the NFL. If my rep is that I'll defend a good guy who happened to not work out as a great player, so be it.

He didn't play up to his contract. Oh well. That doesn't make him a bum and it doesn't make it worthless, and unlike some people, I don't have a problem putting my name to those opinions.

Are you seriously coming onto a message board and dogging people for not having an opinion that agrees with yours?

You're a fucking professional dude. Act like it.

You are getting paid to put your opinions out there and if some don't like them or disagree with them, then so be it. We're fans.

The Baltimore Sun Forum blows because no one cares about it and no offense, but their journalists aren't much better with the way things currently are. I actually really hate saying that because my grandfather retired from the Sun and my uncle still works there.

[BLSmokey]

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo96/chillywilly2626/i-like-where-this-thread-is-going-8.jpg

[wickedsolo]

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo96/chillywilly2626/i-like-where-this-thread-is-going-8.jpg

:34853_lolpoint: KVV

[BLSmokey]

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lqtnctiSTP1qdgb45.jpg

[Peterman]

A lot of people with keyboard courage say a lot of stuff here they'd never say to Domonique's face.

Domonique is such a girly name btw (very intimidating). Of course, I'd never say that to his face. But this is, you know, the interwebs.

[KVV1]

Are you seriously coming onto a message board and dogging people for not having an opinion that agrees with yours?

You're a fucking professional dude. Act like it.

You are getting paid to put your opinions out there and if some don't like them or disagree with them, then so be it. We're fans.

The Baltimore Sun Forum blows because no one cares about it and no offense, but their journalists aren't much better with the way things currently are. I actually really hate saying that because my grandfather retired from the Sun and my uncle still works there.

Here is my point:

Foxworth is a shitty player = acceptable criticism

Foxworth is a bum and a worthless person and I blame him for all the Ravens problems in the secondary and with the salary cap = Silly.

Now, you can believe both. That's certainly your right. And I'll defend to the death your right to say those things. But if you believe the second things about Foxworth, then my column probably isn't for you. That's why I'm saying, however inelegantly.

I don't see why it's so offensive or unprofessional that I'm interested in participating in a dialog here. If someone is going to call me an asshole, they might as well do it to my face. I might deserve it. But I'd like the chance to explain myself.

[Peterman]

Is anyone calling Foxworth a worthless person, or to blame for all the Ravens problems in the secondary/salary cap? I haven't seen anyone here post that. Sure, some have used the term "Foxworthless," but I have taken that more as a tongue-in-cheek jab at Foxworth's value as a player, not as a person...

[Paintballguy]

Foxworth was a terrible FA signing. I can't wait until the Ravens cut him.

[Ravenswintitle]

I have a problem that instead of rehabbing in the offseason, he spent his days in meetings for the PA. Great for other players, but he owed more to the team that is paying him.

He should've been doing everything possible to optimize his value to the organization by being in top shape.

[GOTA]

If you were one of those people who thought calling him "Foxworthless" was clever, then I'm sure my ego will take a major hit at not having you read my stuff. My point is, there is a way to be critical of players, and there is way that crosses a line. A lot of people with keyboard courage say a lot of stuff here they'd never say to Domonique's face. Have a little perspective is all I'm asking. Calling him a bum? Saying he dogged his rehab because he had to work on the labor deal? That, to me, crosses a line.

I find it funny that people on these boards so often get angry with certain columnists for unfairly criticizing players, yet I've managed to make people angry for sticking up for someone I think is a good person. People defend rapists, murderers, dog fighters, etc., all the time in the NFL. If my rep is that I'll defend a good guy who happened to not work out as a great player, so be it.

He didn't play up to his contract. Oh well. That doesn't make him a bum and it doesn't make it worthless, and unlike some people, I don't have a problem putting my name to those opinions.

I never called him Foxworthless or a bum. I did say that he was the worst free agent signing in Ravens history on multiple occasions. I was also against the signing as soon as it was announced. Seemed to me that was a lot of cap space devoted to a mediocre player no matter how great his character and what town he called home. I never understood why the Ravens chose not to trade for Foxworth in 2008 for as little as a 7th round pick and then the following year signed him to a huge contract.

Dominique Foxworth comes across as a one of the real good guys in the NFL. He also seems to be one of the smartest players. I have no doubt that after his NFL career is over he will go on to big things in the real world. But in this game contracts mean cap space. Fans have the right to judge the player, the contract and the team that allocates that cap space. Since the day he was signed I posted that Foxworth was being paid because he is a likable person and that he was local. After his first year I continued to post the same things based on his play. Now that his Ravens career is probably over I see no reason not to criticize the team for wasting so much cap space that could have been used for other needs on him. That's not a criticism of him as a person. It's a criticism of him as a football player.

Feel free to continue to read my posts, seriously. Unlike you I have no problem with people reading me who disagree with my opinions.... and I don't even get paid to do it.

[JMUpurkfool]

Facts: Foxworth was vastly overpaid.. at best he is our fifth corner. He is counting as a top 3 salary cap guy.

Foxworth is a "finesse" corner. (Code Word: soft) He doesn't play press and is not a playmaker.

Foxworth admittedly missed some rehab time due to CBA negotiations.

Ok.. Foxworth is a good guy. He's smart, friendly, and works hard. But he didn't help us win football games and we could have used his contract to make the football team better in other areas.

I won't miss him, but do wish him well wherever he goes.

PS Thanks for the new CBA but as a Ravens fan, I wish you were more concerned with preparing for a championship run than building a resume for your post football career. And that's my right as a fan.

[myfavoriteboxer]

I sent KVV a message on Twitter asking if that's actually him. If it is, thanks for checking in to the forum. Your columns are good.

[wickedsolo]

Domonique is such a girly name btw (very intimidating). Of course, I'd never say that to his face. But this is, you know, the interwebs.

I would have no problem telling Foxworth to his face that he should have known better about the status of his rehab prior to the 1st practice and he should have suggested the PUP list. At least that way he would have been on the 6-week pup list for the season and been around later in the year to contribute.

I also would have no problem telling him that he was bounced around from the Broncos and the Falcons and the Ravens gave him a home. Considering the probability that we'll make a good run at a championship he should have volunteered to take a pay cut to help out in re-signing players like Flacco, Rice, Ngata, and Grubbs.

[wickedsolo]

Here is my point:

Foxworth is a shitty player = acceptable criticism

Foxworth is a bum and a worthless person and I blame him for all the Ravens problems in the secondary and with the salary cap = Silly.

Now, you can believe both. That's certainly your right. And I'll defend to the death your right to say those things. But if you believe the second things about Foxworth, then my column probably isn't for you. That's why I'm saying, however inelegantly.

I don't see why it's so offensive or unprofessional that I'm interested in participating in a dialog here. If someone is going to call me an asshole, they might as well do it to my face. I might deserve it. But I'd like the chance to explain myself.

Because you come here and your first post is basically calling out a guy who's opinion disagrees with yours and I can almost guarantee at no point did GOTA say anything about your columns other than the entire Baltimore Sun online "whatever" is garbage and gone down hill in the last 10 years.

Your response just stinks of a high schooler seeking someone out for "talking shit about them" behind their back.

[myfavoriteboxer]

Considering the probability that we'll make a good run at a championship he should have volunteered to take a pay cut to help out in re-signing players like Flacco, Rice, Ngata, and Grubbs.

Players shouldn't volunteer to take pay cuts. They shouldn't restructure contracts to take pay cuts when approached by their teams. They negotiate for the money they make and if the team doesn't want to pay that amount, they can cut the player. If the Ravens thought Foxworth was so overpriced we could've waived him along with the other vets on Day 1, and if nobody else valued him as much as we did, he could've come back.

[wickedsolo]

Players shouldn't volunteer to take pay cuts. They shouldn't restructure contracts to take pay cuts when approached by their teams. They negotiate for the money they make and if the team doesn't want to pay that amount, they can cut the player. If the Ravens thought Foxworth was so overpriced we could've waived him along with the other vets on Day 1, and if nobody else valued him as much as we did, he could've come back.

Foxworth calls himself a team player, yet he wasn't focused on the team at all this off-season when he could have been working on rehabbing his knee rather than sitting on the couch watching Man Vs Food. That's what I have a problem with. I actually don't think he's that bad of a player and I like having local guys on the team. It inspires the community and brings in more fans with stronger ties to the team.

And why shouldn't players volunteer to restructure and take pay cuts? Tom Brady did it. Several other players in the league have offered to have their contracts restructured and take pay cuts so that their TEAM could benefit from the extra cap room and make a play for different FA's or trades that would help the TEAM win a championship.

At this point, Foxworth likely won't ever take a snap for the Ravens again. The money he'll make next year could be used to re-sign Webb and Cary Williams.

[Jeremiah W]

I agree with KVV.

I mean sure it did not turnout to be a good signing, but we do not know how it would have turned out had he stayed healthy.

Someone also called out Leon Searcy as the other free agent bust. That was a good move that did not work out. That is football.

[bpmurr]

Foxworth calls himself a team player, yet he wasn't focused on the team at all this off-season when he could have been working on rehabbing his knee rather than sitting on the couch watching Man Vs Food. That's what I have a problem with. I actually don't think he's that bad of a player and I like having local guys on the team. It inspires the community and brings in more fans with stronger ties to the team.

And why shouldn't players volunteer to restructure and take pay cuts? Tom Brady did it. Several other players in the league have offered to have their contracts restructured and take pay cuts so that their TEAM could benefit from the extra cap room and make a play for different FA's or trades that would help the TEAM win a championship.

At this point, Foxworth likely won't ever take a snap for the Ravens again. The money he'll make next year could be used to re-sign Webb and Cary Williams.

Foxworth was working on his knee during the off-season along with the CBA negotiations. He was not just sitting around watching TV all day. I know the guy and it blows my mind the crap people come up with. He more than anyone wants to shut the haters up and is extremely disappointed by the events that have transpired.

[The Excellector]

Kevin Van Valkenburg,

I question why you do not know better than to take the ramblings of a message board seriously. Many of us have long understand the realm that we enter when we converse on message boards. This is nothing new. As for the term 'Foxworthless' (Which I do not remember using, not that you claimed I did), it is used to describe how a fan feels about Foxworth's play on the field. It has never been used to describe Foxworth as a person.

While I commend Dominique Foxworth for his role in bringing forth the new collective bargaining agreement, it seems that he did not have the time or make the time to rehabilitate the knee properly. However, we as fans have not heard of Foxworth being willing to restructure his contract, even though that lack of rehabilitation has negatively impacted his ability to play on the field. I believe that leaves him open for criticism. I would not find an issue with asking him about that situation in person.

There are plenty of Baltimoreans who would marvel at the opportunity to tell Foxworth off, to his face, provided they were operating under the proper alcohol level.;), if that were even a required motivator.

As for your columns, even though I have not been so harsh on Dominique Foxworth, I will not read them. I have not enjoyed your columns anyway.

[HoustonRaven]

To focus on two extreme point of views, KVV, and use them as your representation of this thread is disappointing.

I think I can speak for most here when I say we expect more from our local journalists.

But then again, The Sun is a sinking ship so I guess I ought not to be too surprised.

[B-more Ravor]

His knee injury, however, made it difficult to evaluate him beyond that. Cutting him, by the way, would not have meant the Ravens could have kept Josh Wilson. It just would have meant the portion of Foxworth's signing bonus slated to count against the 2012 cap would have been accelerated to count against the 2011 cap. So if you blame him for the Ravens losing Wilson, you need to have a better grasp of how the salary cap works. The Ravens could have saved some money, but not enough to keep Wilson.

Hmmm, OK.

And those who tell others they "need have a better grasp of how the salary cap works" should really, really be sure that they, in fact, know what they are talking about. :grbac:

Simply put, you are wrong about how the cap works, so you should be careful to not be so smug and condescending towards others as you were above.

Releasing Foxworth would not have caused the acceleration of any 2012 money into 2011, because his release - and all releases this year - were treated as post-June 1 releases. As such, the acceleration happens in 2012, not 2011 (although since 2012 is the last year of Foxworth's deal, there really is no acceleration, just the final prorations of his bonuses counting as dead money).

So, the Ravens would have saved $4.4M in Cap space by releasing Foxworth when they could have and that amount would have been more than enough to accommodate Josh Wilson's 2011 Cap number of $3.4M.

[Captain Silver]

The powers that were, places like the Sun, and those they employ, think they have the power. That we need them. That their insight is so much more because they get paid.

Nothing could be further from the truth in this digital age. It is content, quality, and freedom of opinion. This particular topic is the Ravens, but world wide information is changing the world, it cannot be stopped. I would gladly read the postings of Wicked Solo on the Draft, Filmstudy's game analysis, GOTA's observations, Ravor's capology then pay a single dime to a defunct ideal and it's deluded employees.

Foxworthless. I said it. I'd say it to his face. He never lived up to the contract he was paid period. He might be the greatest person in the world. If my best friend pulled off a contract like that, I'd tell him you snaked a fat deal, now laugh all the way to the bank. Which is exactly what a millionaire like Foxworth would do if a fan like me said it to his face. But that is what makes me a fan, not a pro athlete, nor person compensated for his opinion. I have the right to form an opinion the same way Deion Sanders slammed the hell out of Tony Romo on NFL Network last night for sucking. Why? Because it is true.

If anything, the media lurkers who troll these boards for stories on radio or in print, be put on notice, we the people are free.

[HoustonRaven]

The powers that were, places like the Sun, and those they employ, think they have the power. That we need them. That their insight is so much more because they get paid.

Nothing could be further from the truth in this digital age. It is content, quality, and freedom of opinion. This particular topic is the Ravens, but world wide information is changing the world, it cannot be stopped. I would gladly read the postings of Wicked Solo on the Draft, Filmstudy's game analysis, GOTA's observations, Ravor's capology then pay a single dime to a defunct ideal and it's deluded employees.

Foxworthless. I said it. I'd say it to his face. He never lived up to the contract he was paid period. He might be the greatest person in the world. If my best friend pulled off a contract like that, I'd tell him you snaked a fat deal, now laugh all the way to the bank. Which is exactly what a millionaire like Foxworth would do if a fan like me said it to his face. But that is what makes me a fan, not a pro athlete, nor person compensated for his opinion. I have the right to form an opinion the same way Deion Sanders slammed the hell out of Tony Romo on NFL Network last night for sucking. Why? Because it is true.

If anything, the media lurkers who troll these boards for stories on radio or in print, be put on notice, we the people are free.

:word

And stop stealing our stuff and calling it your own!

:D

[KVV1]

Foxworth calls himself a team player, yet he wasn't focused on the team at all this off-season when he could have been working on rehabbing his knee rather than sitting on the couch watching Man Vs Food. That's what I have a problem with.

At this point, Foxworth likely won't ever take a snap for the Ravens again. The money he'll make next year could be used to re-sign Webb and Cary Williams.

See, this is part of what I think is silly, wickedsolo. You believe he was sitting around watching Man Vs. Food and was somehow neglecting his rehab based on, what, his Twitter feed?

He was working his butt off twice a day, fitting stuff in around the labor negotiations so that WE COULD HAVE FOOTBALL. If that makes Ravens fans mad, so be it. But his role was pretty important in the negotiations. One of the reasons you get to see Ed Reed and Ray Lewis play football this year is because Domonique Foxworth sat in a room and fought day after day after day for the players to get their fair share of the pie. That's not irrelevant.

As for why he didn't volunteer to take a paycut like Brady, please. Brady offered to restructure his contract when the Patriots asked him knowing full well he would see all that money throughout the full life of the deal, then get another huge contract. This might be the last contract Foxworth gets. He struck at the right moment, in a weak corner market. Be mad at the Ravens if you want to be mad. He's also -- despite what everyone wants to believe -- not among the highest paid players at his position. Not even close. Since he's likely to be cut, he won't make any money next year. His signing bonus will count as a pro-rated version against the 2012 cap, but that's unlikely to have anything to do with whatever money Webb or Williams get.

And if no one here said Foxworth was a bum and a piece of shit and Foxworthless, then why get worked up about it? I obviously wasn't talking to people who weren't criticizing him for those reasons. But they still seem offended.

As for the claim that I showed up here like some high school kid who heard people had been talking shit about him, that's just silly. Since it's clear the Sun forums blow, I thought it would be worth check this place out. I've been here off and on for a few weeks. I actually like interacting with readers, even if they dislike me. I think that's a heck of a lot better than spouting off my opinions and then hiding behind an email address. Isn't it better that I'm hear to take my licks -- if warranted -- than just speaking from an ivory tower and never answering for any of it?

[Jeremiah W]

See, this is part of what I think is silly, wickedsolo. You believe he was sitting around watching Man Vs. Food and was somehow neglecting his rehab based on, what, his Twitter feed?

He was working his butt off twice a day, fitting stuff in around the labor negotiations so that WE COULD HAVE FOOTBALL. If that makes Ravens fans mad, so be it. But his role was pretty important in the negotiations. One of the reasons you get to see Ed Reed and Ray Lewis play football this year is because Domonique Foxworth sat in a room and fought day after day after day for the players to get their fair share of the pie. That's not irrelevant.

As for why he didn't volunteer to take a paycut like Brady, please. Brady offered to restructure his contract when the Patriots asked him knowing full well he would see all that money throughout the full life of the deal, then get another huge contract. This might be the last contract Foxworth gets. He struck at the right moment, in a weak corner market. Be mad at the Ravens if you want to be mad. He's also -- despite what everyone wants to believe -- not among the highest paid players at his position. Not even close. Since he's likely to be cut, he won't make any money next year. His signing bonus will count as a pro-rated version against the 2012 cap, but that's unlikely to have anything to do with whatever money Webb or Williams get.

And if no one here said Foxworth was a bum and a piece of shit and Foxworthless, then why get worked up about it? I obviously wasn't talking to people who weren't criticizing him for those reasons. But they still seem offended.

As for the claim that I showed up here like some high school kid who heard people had been talking shit about him, that's just silly. Since it's clear the Sun forums blow, I thought it would be worth check this place out. I've been here off and on for a few weeks. I actually like interacting with readers, even if they dislike me. I think that's a heck of a lot better than spouting off my opinions and then hiding behind an email address. Isn't it better that I'm hear to take my licks -- if warranted -- than just speaking from an ivory tower and never answering for any of it?

Welcome to the board. Not sure you really have an ivory tower, and I am not, nor are many posters here going to pay to read your column, but it is good to read a reasonable take on Foxworthless. Great guy, worth defending on the internet, but haters are going to hate.

[purplepoe]

See, this is part of what I think is silly, wickedsolo. You believe he was sitting around watching Man Vs. Food and was somehow neglecting his rehab based on, what, his Twitter feed?

He was working his butt off twice a day, fitting stuff in around the labor negotiations so that WE COULD HAVE FOOTBALL. If that makes Ravens fans mad, so be it. But his role was pretty important in the negotiations. One of the reasons you get to see Ed Reed and Ray Lewis play football this year is because Domonique Foxworth sat in a room and fought day after day after day for the players to get their fair share of the pie. That's not irrelevant.

As for why he didn't volunteer to take a paycut like Brady, please. Brady offered to restructure his contract when the Patriots asked him knowing full well he would see all that money throughout the full life of the deal, then get another huge contract. This might be the last contract Foxworth gets. He struck at the right moment, in a weak corner market. Be mad at the Ravens if you want to be mad. He's also -- despite what everyone wants to believe -- not among the highest paid players at his position. Not even close. Since he's likely to be cut, he won't make any money next year. His signing bonus will count as a pro-rated version against the 2012 cap, but that's unlikely to have anything to do with whatever money Webb or Williams get.

And if no one here said Foxworth was a bum and a piece of shit and Foxworthless, then why get worked up about it? I obviously wasn't talking to people who weren't criticizing him for those reasons. But they still seem offended.

As for the claim that I showed up here like some high school kid who heard people had been talking shit about him, that's just silly. Since it's clear the Sun forums blow, I thought it would be worth check this place out. I've been here off and on for a few weeks. I actually like interacting with readers, even if they dislike me. I think that's a heck of a lot better than spouting off my opinions and then hiding behind an email address. Isn't it better that I'm hear to take my licks -- if warranted -- than just speaking from an ivory tower and never answering for any of it?

Kevin

You probably should do a little digging or talk to some of your peers who have some sources and find out exactly why the Ravens didn't PUP him nor cut him.

As far as Foxworth somehow being this instrumental piece in the CBA negotiations? Well, let's just say that there is quite a bit of hyperbole IMO.

PP

[wickedsolo]

Foxworth was working on his knee during the off-season along with the CBA negotiations. He was not just sitting around watching TV all day. I know the guy and it blows my mind the crap people come up with. He more than anyone wants to shut the haters up and is extremely disappointed by the events that have transpired.

I was making a joke of how in the midst of the negotiations he had time to tweet about watching a Man vs Food marathon.

I'm sure he was working his knee out, but obviously not as much as he could have (or should have). Several players have injured their ACL's and returned in a year's time frame (sometimes less). Sure there is rust, but you rarely hear about the player still having lingering issues. That to me says that he was devoting more time to the CBA and things of that nature than rehabbing.

I've no doubt that Foxworth is a good guy and genuinely wants to play and help the team win. However, it just boggles my mind that he would go through the pre-season still injured and now he's done for the year. It was a bad decision that could have been avoided. 6 weeks on the PUP list during the regular season would have given him 6 extra weeks of rehabbing and working his knee so he could at least contribute for the last half of the season. I blame the coaching staff and training staff on that one too btw.

[wickedsolo]

Welcome to the board. Not sure you really have an ivory tower, and I am not, nor are many posters here going to pay to read your column, but it is good to read a reasonable take on Foxworthless. Great guy, worth defending on the internet, but haters are going to hate.

Knock it off.

I don't hate Foxworth. I never said that and frankly I don't think that anyone here has ever said that they hate the guy.

I was actually in favor of signing him as a FA. He fit the mold of what they were looking for at the time in a corner and he is a great locker room presence.

I don't like the contract he's getting and I don't like that he likely ignored the necessary rehab on his knee to get back into shape for football.

[The Excellector]

Kevin Van Valkenburg,

So, I should blame the Ravens more than Foxworth? It is not okay for someone to criticize Foxworth for not getting the 'proper' treatment for his injury over the off-season. However, it is okay for him to maintain the details of his contract, even though he likely knew that the lack of 'proper' treatment would lead to poor performances on the field, while one should blame the Ravens for that instead of him?

[NC Raven]

Kevin

You probably should do a little digging or talk to some of your peers who have some sources and find out exactly why the Ravens didn't PUP him nor cut him.


Agreed. Now that would be the kind of story I'd pay subscription fees to read.

[wickedsolo]

See, this is part of what I think is silly, wickedsolo. You believe he was sitting around watching Man Vs. Food and was somehow neglecting his rehab based on, what, his Twitter feed?

Again, it was a joke due to the fact that during the "heated negotiation process" of the CBA's he had time to tweet about how hilarious or whatever a Man Vs Food marathon was.



He was working his butt off twice a day, fitting stuff in around the labor negotiations so that WE COULD HAVE FOOTBALL. If that makes Ravens fans mad, so be it. But his role was pretty important in the negotiations. One of the reasons you get to see Ed Reed and Ray Lewis play football this year is because Domonique Foxworth sat in a room and fought day after day after day for the players to get their fair share of the pie. That's not irrelevant.


Come on man. Foxworth was a piece of the machine, but you're making it out like he took on the entire CBA and re-wrote it himself.

I realize that he had a lot on his plate, but he obviously didn't dedicate himself enough to making sure that his knee was good to go. Everyone knew that there would be an NFL season. I mean, do you honestly think that if Foxworth were NOT present during the CBA negotiations they wouldn't have gotten it done when they did anyway? Give me a break.

Players can rehab a knee injury like his in less than a year. Webb did it and several other players do it every year.

Honestly, I'm not even irritated that Foxworth's knee is still bothering him. I'm irritated that he wasn't smarter during the pre-season than he was. He (and the trainers & coaching staff share the blame on this) should have been on the PUP list for the pre-season and therefor been eligible for the regular season PUP list, meaning he'd be able to at least try and rehab so he can participate for the 2nd half of the season. Now he's done for the year. It's just a waste and the whole thing was never handled properly.




As for why he didn't volunteer to take a paycut like Brady, please. Brady offered to restructure his contract when the Patriots asked him knowing full well he would see all that money throughout the full life of the deal, then get another huge contract. This might be the last contract Foxworth gets. He struck at the right moment, in a weak corner market. Be mad at the Ravens if you want to be mad. He's also -- despite what everyone wants to believe -- not among the highest paid players at his position. Not even close. Since he's likely to be cut, he won't make any money next year. His signing bonus will count as a pro-rated version against the 2012 cap, but that's unlikely to have anything to do with whatever money Webb or Williams get.


He sees guys like Heap, Mason, and Gregg getting the axe and at no point did he ever think that maybe offering to restructure his deal to help out the cap might make things easier in going after a FA, keeping one of those guys, etc? That's just being a team player.

I don't know why everyone gets so up in arms when people toss around the idea of players restructuring deals and/or taking cuts if it will help the team.




And if no one here said Foxworth was a bum and a piece of shit and Foxworthless, then why get worked up about it? I obviously wasn't talking to people who weren't criticizing him for those reasons. But they still seem offended.

As for the claim that I showed up here like some high school kid who heard people had been talking shit about him, that's just silly. Since it's clear the Sun forums blow, I thought it would be worth check this place out. I've been here off and on for a few weeks. I actually like interacting with readers, even if they dislike me. I think that's a heck of a lot better than spouting off my opinions and then hiding behind an email address. Isn't it better that I'm hear to take my licks -- if warranted -- than just speaking from an ivory tower and never answering for any of it?

I'm actually not even remotely worked up over your thoughts on Foxworth vs other's. Frankly, I like the guy and think he's an average corner who signed a deal that overvalued him terribly. Especially when you compare that Jabari Greer got a similar (IIRC) deal in New Orleans and he's been their #1 corner ever since. Good for him though. He made his money when he got the opportunity to.

What I don't like is the elitist attitude that came strolling in here when you did. Seriously dude, your first post was basically like "Oh, so you guys are the ones who call him "Foxworthless" huh? Well guess what? I don't want you guys reading my column anyway."

If you didn't mean it that way, fine, but I just don't understand the initial hostility to your customers (for lack of a better term).


Regarding you coming here and interacting with folks and coming down from your "Ivory Tower", I say good man. You'll get some real info and real opinions. :respect We'll see if you continue to hang around. I'm halfway expecting you to be a 1-n-done kind of poster though.

[wickedsolo]

Hmmm, OK.

And those who tell others they "need have a better grasp of how the salary cap works" should really, really be sure that they, in fact, know what they are talking about. :grbac:

Simply put, you are wrong about how the cap works, so you should be careful to not be so smug and condescending towards others as you were above.

Releasing Foxworth would not have caused the acceleration of any 2012 money into 2011, because his release - and all releases this year - were treated as post-June 1 releases. As such, the acceleration happens in 2012, not 2011 (although since 2012 is the last year of Foxworth's deal, there really is no acceleration, just the final prorations of his bonuses counting as dead money).

So, the Ravens would have saved $4.4M in Cap space by releasing Foxworth when they could have and that amount would have been more than enough to accommodate Josh Wilson's 2011 Cap number of $3.4M.



Ravor with the :192214:

[wickedsolo]

The powers that were, places like the Sun, and those they employ, think they have the power. That we need them. That their insight is so much more because they get paid.

Nothing could be further from the truth in this digital age. It is content, quality, and freedom of opinion. This particular topic is the Ravens, but world wide information is changing the world, it cannot be stopped. I would gladly read the postings of Wicked Solo on the Draft, Filmstudy's game analysis, GOTA's observations, Ravor's capology then pay a single dime to a defunct ideal and it's deluded employees.

Foxworthless. I said it. I'd say it to his face. He never lived up to the contract he was paid period. He might be the greatest person in the world. If my best friend pulled off a contract like that, I'd tell him you snaked a fat deal, now laugh all the way to the bank. Which is exactly what a millionaire like Foxworth would do if a fan like me said it to his face. But that is what makes me a fan, not a pro athlete, nor person compensated for his opinion. I have the right to form an opinion the same way Deion Sanders slammed the hell out of Tony Romo on NFL Network last night for sucking. Why? Because it is true.

If anything, the media lurkers who troll these boards for stories on radio or in print, be put on notice, we the people are free.


Here here good sir!

A pint o'the dark stuff be toasted to ya!

:beer:

[NC Raven]

Kevin Van Valkenburg,

So, I should blame the Ravens more than Foxworth? It is not okay for someone to criticize Foxworth for not getting the 'proper' treatment for his injury over the off-season. However, it is okay for him to maintain the details of his contract, even though he likely knew that the lack of 'proper' treatment would lead to poor performances on the field, while one should blame the Ravens for that instead of him?

Agree, this is completely a fair criticism. If a guy's got a torn ACL and spends all offseason building schools in impoverished countries and helping put up mosquito nets, that's great. What better thing to do? A beautiful and commendable way to spend part of one's life, truly.

But at the same time, if he doesn't do his rehab, and can't play, but still shows up and expects to collect a 7 figure salary, is there not some wrong there? Does the one paying the salary not have some right to feel cheated?

Even doing something virtuous doesn't excuse you from your existing obligations. For example, you still have to pay your mortgage every month even if you've quit your job to volunteer with Habitat for Humanity for a year. And you can't go to the foreclosure hearing and tell the judge "hey, I'm doing charity work" and expect to win your case. You borrowed the money, you have to pay it back. Even Mother Teresa had to pay her bills.

[mindless lemming]

Are all the Sun columnists planning on migrating to this forum?

I await with bated breath the first posting by "TSUDonutMan"! :ww:

[wickedsolo]

I just hope Spanky forgets how to type and can't find this place.

[myfavoriteboxer]

I have no idea why any of us should assume he "didn't do his rehab" when we have no idea. Even if he was tweeting a lot, or visibly often busy with CBA negotiations, we really have no idea.

If the Ravens staff determines that the guy isn't ready, he gets all the punishment he needs (if indeed he is at fault at all) by not getting to contribute to the team, or getting cut. I don't see any need for us to speculate about why his knee isn't healed enough. Contrary to what some folks on this thread are saying, ligament injuries in your knee (though I am fortunate enough to not know about this from personal experience) are difficult to recover from. I'm content to say too bad for him and too bad for us, that's that.

[GOTA]

Are all the Sun columnists planning on migrating to this forum?

I await with bated breath the first posting by "TSUDonutMan"! :ww:

Even those that work there aren't going to pay to continue to go to the Sun online. So the short answer is yes he'll be here.

[NC Raven]

I have no idea why any of us should assume he "didn't do his rehab" when we have no idea. Even if he was tweeting a lot, or visibly often busy with CBA negotiations, we really have no idea.



Aaron Wilson reported it a few days ago, that Foxworth admitted he was only able to work out once a day, either early in the morning, or later in the evening, to accomodate his schedule dealing with the CBA.

[Jayc00]

If you were one of those people who thought calling him "Foxworthless" was clever, then I'm sure my ego will take a major hit at not having you read my stuff. My point is, there is a way to be critical of players, and there is way that crosses a line. A lot of people with keyboard courage say a lot of stuff here they'd never say to Domonique's face. Have a little perspective is all I'm asking. Calling him a bum? Saying he dogged his rehab because he had to work on the labor deal? That, to me, crosses a line.

I find it funny that people on these boards so often get angry with certain columnists for unfairly criticizing players, yet I've managed to make people angry for sticking up for someone I think is a good person. People defend rapists, murderers, dog fighters, etc., all the time in the NFL. If my rep is that I'll defend a good guy who happened to not work out as a great player, so be it.

He didn't play up to his contract. Oh well. That doesn't make him a bum and it doesn't make it worthless, and unlike some people, I don't have a problem putting my name to those opinions.

How does it cross a line? He had a FULL year to rehab yet still comes back to training camp not ready. To sit there and think that the labor deals had nothing to do with him at all not being ready is silly. I know everyone heals differently but, Wes Welker came back in what 6months after his injury which happened just a game or two before the playoffs?

[Ravenswintitle]

Aaron Wilson reported it a few days ago, that Foxworth admitted he was only able to work out once a day, either early in the morning, or later in the evening, to accomodate his schedule dealing with the CBA.

I also heard it discussed by players on SiriusNFL only they were praising him for his selfishness and dedication to the PA. I understand their perspective but facts are still facts; he neglected his rehab.

[PeterB58]

And if no one here said Foxworth was a bum and a piece of shit and Foxworthless, then why get worked up about it? I obviously wasn't talking to people who weren't criticizing him for those reasons. But they still seem offended.Maybe that is because you are painting with an extremely broad brush.

[Dont Know]

He was working his butt off twice a day, fitting stuff in around the labor negotiations so that WE COULD HAVE FOOTBALL. If that makes Ravens fans mad, so be it. But his role was pretty important in the negotiations. One of the reasons you get to see Ed Reed and Ray Lewis play football this year is because Domonique Foxworth sat in a room and fought day after day after day for the players to get their fair share of the pie. That's not irrelevant.

That's great for everyone who enjoys football, but why are we as Raven fans stuck with the bill (his salary) and at a competitive disadvantage (salary cap) because of this?

If anything, he should have agreed to restructure his deal and taken the balance of his pay from his fellow players.

The fact of the matter is that he is first and foremost payed by the Ravens, hence his responsibility is first and foremost towards the Ravens (i.e. rehab). Therefor he should first and foremost spend his time rehabbing and whatever time he has in between can be spent any way he likes (including negotiations).

He did not do this, but prioritized differently, i.e. negotiations first and rehab second. That's his right, but then he should have taken the financial consequences of his choices and forfeited most of his salary from the Ravens and taken a large pay check from his fellow players to make up the difference instead.

To me, it's just weird that we as Raven fans should accept and be happy about being stuck with the bill and consequences of prolonged negotiations for the labor deal which benefitted everyone equally.

And I have yet to hear a credible explanation for how Foxworth did not end up on PuP where he belonged. How that happened just boggles the mind.

[Jeremiah W]

That's great for everyone who enjoys football, but why are we as Raven fans stuck with the bill (his salary) and at a competitive disadvantage (salary cap) because of this?

If anything, he should have agreed to restructure his deal and taken the balance of his pay from his fellow players.

The fact of the matter is that he is first and foremost payed by the Ravens, hence his responsibility is first and foremost towards the Ravens (i.e. rehab). Therefor he should first and foremost spend his time rehabbing and whatever time he has in between can be spent any way he likes (including negotiations).

He did not do this, but prioritized differently, i.e. negotiations first and rehab second. That's his right, but then he should have taken the financial consequences of his choices and forfeited most of his salary from the Ravens and taken a large pay check from his fellow players to make up the difference instead.

To me, it's just weird that we as Raven fans should accept and be happy about being stuck with the bill and consequences of prolonged negotiations for the labor deal which benefitted everyone equally.

And I have yet to hear a credible explanation for how Foxworth did not end up on PuP where he belonged. How that happened just boggles the mind.

The Ravens did not have to sign him in the first place. They took a gamble and lost. It does not have to be someone's fault that his knee is not right.

The fans do not dictate who the team chooses to pay and how much.

It is too bad that Foxworth got hurt. Maybe he could have done more rehab, maybe not. There really is no way to know.

In hindsight, the glaring mistake was not putting him on the PUP list to start the year, every thing else was just pretty much the price of poker.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

The Ravens did not have to sign him in the first place. They took a gamble and lost. It does not have to be someone's fault that his knee is not right.

The fans do not dictate who the team chooses to pay and how much.

It is too bad that Foxworth got hurt. Maybe he could have done more rehab, maybe not. There really is no way to know.

In hindsight, the glaring mistake was not putting him on the PUP list to start the year, every thing else was just pretty much the price of poker.

Jeremiah is the voice reason!

The hate for Foxworth is a joke IMHO. Due to no fault of his own, he couldn't rehab at the Ravens facility. He was so concerned with a CBA, he put his own interests behind the players and league. Without him we probably aren't having this discussion (or any discussion related to playing football right now). Would you rather deal with what is turning out to be a mild inconvenience with him not being available (I don't think he starts even if healthy at this point) while the team is playing some of the best football we've seen here in years...or for him to be healthy and struggling to beat out guys that may be better than him.

It isn't his fault the Ravens signed him to that contract. It isn't his fault the Ravens didn't use common sense when camp opened, and it isn't his fault the Ravens didn't think ahead and cut him if that is what is keeping us from winning games.

He did what he could, came into camp, and did what the coaches asked him to do...which obviously was the wrong decision by the coaches and training staff.

Personally, I would have released him...but certainly nothing based on what he could or couldn't do. He did what he could with what he had and I'm just thankful that we are playing football right now with no missed games.

Reading some of this, you'd think Foxworth was Donny Brady bad as a player and sat at home eating bon bons during the entire offseason. The FO made a mistake in giving him all that money, but again, that is not his fault.

[B-more Ravor]

And I have yet to hear a credible explanation for how Foxworth did not end up on PuP where he belonged. How that happened just boggles the mind.

There's really not much to it. He passed his pre-TC physical. Foxworth, the team and the doctors all thought he was ready. Foxworth didn't want to go on PUP either.

And, to be perfectly honest about it, these days, he should have been.

The problem is that because of the shortened time frame - and lack of OTAs - he really didn't have a chance to ease into it and the knee didn't respond well.

They now know it was a mistake and wish the would have put him on PUP. I have a feeling that they will be more cautious the next time around.

[dandrews]

This thread has a very OrioleHangout-esque feeling about it. Everybody jumps on one guy because of a dissenting opinion.

Nobody here knows how hard Foxworth worked this offseason, so why all the pretending he does?

Why all the pretending that the Ravens had a crystal ball and could see in the future that Foxworth would play poorly?

It is what it is, but to personally attack the guy because he doesn't agree with you? Bush league.

[dandrews]

Jeremiah is the voice reason!

The hate for Foxworth is a joke IMHO. Due to no fault of his own, he couldn't rehab at the Ravens facility. He was so concerned with a CBA, he put his own interests behind the players and league. Without him we probably aren't having this discussion (or any discussion related to playing football right now). Would you rather deal with what is turning out to be a mild inconvenience with him not being available (I don't think he starts even if healthy at this point) while the team is playing some of the best football we've seen here in years...or for him to be healthy and struggling to beat out guys that may be better than him.

It isn't his fault the Ravens signed him to that contract. It isn't his fault the Ravens didn't use common sense when camp opened, and it isn't his fault the Ravens didn't think ahead and cut him if that is what is keeping us from winning games.

He did what he could, came into camp, and did what the coaches asked him to do...which obviously was the wrong decision by the coaches and training staff.

Personally, I would have released him...but certainly nothing based on what he could or couldn't do. He did what he could with what he had and I'm just thankful that we are playing football right now with no missed games.

Reading some of this, you'd think Foxworth was Donny Brady bad as a player and sat at home eating bon bons during the entire offseason. The FO made a mistake in giving him all that money, but again, that is not his fault.

:word:word:word

[StingerNLG]

Jeremiah is the voice reason!

The hate for Foxworth is a joke IMHO. Due to no fault of his own, he couldn't rehab at the Ravens facility. He was so concerned with a CBA, he put his own interests behind the players and league. Without him we probably aren't having this discussion (or any discussion related to playing football right now). Would you rather deal with what is turning out to be a mild inconvenience with him not being available (I don't think he starts even if healthy at this point) while the team is playing some of the best football we've seen here in years...or for him to be healthy and struggling to beat out guys that may be better than him.

It isn't his fault the Ravens signed him to that contract. It isn't his fault the Ravens didn't use common sense when camp opened, and it isn't his fault the Ravens didn't think ahead and cut him if that is what is keeping us from winning games.

He did what he could, came into camp, and did what the coaches asked him to do...which obviously was the wrong decision by the coaches and training staff.

Personally, I would have released him...but certainly nothing based on what he could or couldn't do. He did what he could with what he had and I'm just thankful that we are playing football right now with no missed games.

Reading some of this, you'd think Foxworth was Donny Brady bad as a player and sat at home eating bon bons during the entire offseason. The FO made a mistake in giving him all that money, but again, that is not his fault.

:word

And let me add to this that at least KVW was man enough to come here, use his real name, and defend his piece. I find it strange that he would be attacked for actually showing up. I'd think he'd more be attacked for "hiding behind the Sun".

I thought we were a better forum than that.

[ballhawk]

:word

And let me add to this that at least KVW was man enough to come here, use his real name, and defend his piece. I find it strange that he would be attacked for actually showing up. I'd think he'd more be attacked for "hiding behind the Sun".

I thought we were a better forum than that.

yea...he showed up and with his first post attacked certain other posters for expressing an opinion contrary to his. any other first time poster would have been called out for it, too.

[Captain Silver]

The hate for Foxworth is a joke IMHO.

What hate? Just because we didn't like him as a corner? Because I called him Foxworthless? Give me a break. If I had a dime for every Boller, Grbac (there is even an ICON for him), Dan Cody, or Ricky Proehl joke, I'd be a rich man. Foxworth was never worth the money he was paid, period. I don't care how thin the market was, and to keep him around as long as the Raven's did was fiscally stupid.


This thread has a very OrioleHangout-esque feeling about it. Everybody jumps on one guy because of a dissenting opinion.

Nobody here knows how hard Foxworth worked this offseason, so why all the pretending he does?

Why all the pretending that the Ravens had a crystal ball and could see in the future that Foxworth would play poorly?

It is what it is, but to personally attack the guy because he doesn't agree with you? Bush league.

I don't pretend to know anything he did in the off season. He sucked per dollar of his contract, even more so that he should have been cut or gotten an injury settlement.

As for jumping on a dissenting opinion, no. Fans were chastised for having an opinion like mine. If you are friends with Foxworth and someone says something nasty on the radio, or text, take it up with them. Don't assume mass guilt and proceed to proclaim that people need not read a Sun blog.


:word

And let me add to this that at least KVW was man enough to come here, use his real name, and defend his piece. I find it strange that he would be attacked for actually showing up. I'd think he'd more be attacked for "hiding behind the Sun".

I thought we were a better forum than that.

I am unimpressed. If anything, it is a clever ploy to get more eyes on the article. In the very merit of the writing readers are specifically told not to read him if they feel or think a certain way. Brilliant. His piece is getting more eyes and reads now then ever before.

Also, I think it unfair of you to judge a forum because the posters you moderate disagree with what a writer from a newspaper that is often criticized around here for the way it reports on the Ravens and treat it's fans on their forum.

I consider myself part of the "forum" and take your meaning that "I" should be better than what? Giving my opinion?

[Raveninwoodlawn]

What hate? Just because we didn't like him as a corner? Because I called him Foxworthless? Give me a break. If I had a dime for every Boller, Grbac (there is even an ICON for him), Dan Cody, or Ricky Proehl joke, I'd be a rich man. Foxworth was never worth the money he was paid, period. I don't care how thin the market was, and to keep him around as long as the Raven's did was fiscally stupid.


I never called you out specifically for hating on him...frankly, there have been so many different posters on here piling on that it would be pointless to try and track who made what statement.

In what way was he "worthless"? Just wondering. I would wholeheartedly agree that he was overpaid...but to most people, calling someone worthless implies not that they are overpaid/overrated, but that they simply suck at what they do.

He struggled along with the rest of our corners during the first half of his only year where he was able to play, and then went on to be our best corner the second half...by a significant margin. Was he shutdown calaber...no, but he was performing as a good #2 CB on a team with a bunch of #3 and 4's.

As for the rest of the guys you named, Grbac was a wimp/crybaby/quitter (and was caught crying on camera and quit after struggling here for one year) who nobody liked...fans or teamates, Boller couldn't play, and I don't know what you guys were doing on the Sun board, but I don't know what Ricky Proehl has ever had anything to do with the Ravens. And Cody, I don't recall anybody here coming up with catchy names and being pissed off at him for getting hurt...shit happens and it wasn't his fault.

You want to be pissed at someone for his contract, or for cutting him, be pissed at Ozzie (BTW, I don't know if you read the rest of my post, but I said that personally, i would have cut him this offseason) as Ozzie took a chance. It's not like Foxworth held out or went public with demands for more money.

[StingerNLG]

yea...he showed up and with his first post attacked certain other posters for expressing an opinion contrary to his. any other first time poster would have been called out for it, too.

Uh, no. Someone quoted him and attacked that. He came here to respond to it, and did it without the usual namecalling that goes on.

Sorry, but its not like he rolled in and started calling people out for no reason.

[The Excellector]

No one hates the man. Jokes are told and comments are made on a board, with the expectation that fans are relieving stress and stepping a bit out of character. That is the message board culture, one that should not be taken so seriously by a professional as to defend a player against comments made on a board.

[Captain Silver]

No one hates the man. Jokes are told and comments are made on a board, with the expectation that fans are relieving stress and stepping a bit out of character. That is the message board culture, one that should not be taken so seriously by a professional as to defend a player against comments made on a board.

:word

Again, as mentioned elsewhere, a lot of this is tongue and cheek. But the criteria or mantra for joking about Raven's past and present is established. Whateve my criteria, or others, it isn't like anyone wants anything bad to happen to Foxworth, he was just the "wrong player for the wrong price".

[GOTA]

:word

And let me add to this that at least KVW was man enough to come here, use his real name, and defend his piece. I find it strange that he would be attacked for actually showing up. I'd think he'd more be attacked for "hiding behind the Sun".

I thought we were a better forum than that.

He was attacked for writing that if you disagree with him he doesn't want you to read his columns. That's initially why this was even brought up. He never did try to defend that strange statement. His readership is going to be crushed on the 10th when you have to pay for it and he is telling people not to read him? Not a good way to sell your service.

[BLSmokey]

What's the big deal with what he said about "not reading his column"? It wasn't about agreeing/disagreeing with him - it was about those he considered to be of low moral standing for bashing Foxworth's character (in his perception). While I don't agree anyone (at least here) was bashing Foxworth on a personal level, if KVV can maintain employment with that kind of stance, more power to him. If an author says "I have a new book out. If you throw rocks at school children, don't read it." - isn't that well within his rights?

I'll never understand why so many Ravens' fans have to jump all over any writer who says something they don't like.

W(ho)TF cares? Don't read it. Simple enough.

[Ngata Da Vida]

Do we know for sure that really was KVV?

[dandrews]

Do we know for sure that really was KVV?

yes

[dandrews]

What's the big deal with what he said about "not reading his column"? It wasn't about agreeing/disagreeing with him - it was about those he considered to be of low moral standing for bashing Foxworth's character (in his perception). While I don't agree anyone (at least here) was bashing Foxworth on a personal level, if KVV can maintain employment with that kind of stance, more power to him. If an author says "I have a new book out. If you throw rocks at school children, don't read it." - isn't that well within his rights?

I'll never understand why so many Ravens' fans have to jump all over any writer who says something they don't like.

W(ho)TF cares? Don't read it. Simple enough.
:word again

even a little better moral stance of "if you don't like the guy because you think he's a bum and he's worthless, don't read my work" is acceptable.

Nobody here is arguing that it was a bad signing. It's the view that people have toward Foxworth because he was a bad signing that is being argued.

[Shas]

A couple thoughts on Foxworth.

First, I think he's getting a bum rap here by some.

He's not a bad corner when he's healthy. After a slow start with the system, Domonique played pretty damn well for the Ravens until getting hurt. That's just a fact.

People are disappointed by him, understandably so, because he's been a non-contributor as much as a contributor. But that doesn't make him a bum.

He was also signed a year before the team figured out they needed to get bigger at the corner spot. That's on them, not him.

As for the money, yes, he's overpaid based on his contribution. But had he been able to sustain his best for a longer period of time, I would not have called it a bad contract. It's about the size of the contract Cromartie signed (a little less than Cromartie's), and Foxworth is not less of a talent. Just less of a contributor.

People say that the team was wrong to give top dollar to a guy who had not been a top corner. Maybe that's true. But that doesn't mean they misjudged his talent. They've found good players who were underutilized on other rosters (Bannann, Leonard, McGahee -- and that's just off the Buffalo roster alone). So not every signing has to be a flashy Anquan Boldin signing to be a good signing.

I believe most of his lingering injury can be attributed to the lock-out and the lack of access to team trainers.

Last point. In 2009 when they signed him, there were not a lot of options. I liked Alphonso Smith in the draft, but he went to Denver and really hasn't done much anyway. By missing out on a player like McCourtey in prior drafts, Foxworth was the best option available. It wasn't a terrible signing. But it just didn't work out.

[GOTA]

What's the big deal with what he said about "not reading his column"? It wasn't about agreeing/disagreeing with him - it was about those he considered to be of low moral standing for bashing Foxworth's character (in his perception). While I don't agree anyone (at least here) was bashing Foxworth on a personal level, if KVV can maintain employment with that kind of stance, more power to him. If an author says "I have a new book out. If you throw rocks at school children, don't read it." - isn't that well within his rights?

I'll never understand why so many Ravens' fans have to jump all over any writer who says something they don't like.

W(ho)TF cares? Don't read it. Simple enough.

He's the one who jumped on the fans with that article. So why shouldn't the fans jump back? He was offended at what he was hearing about someone he obviously knows and respects on a personal level and he decided to go after the fan base. The fans have a right to be upset with him.

[BLSmokey]

He's the one who jumped on the fans with that article. So why shouldn't the fans jump back? He was offended at what he was hearing about someone he obviously knows and respects on a personal level and he decided to go after the fan base. The fans have a right to be upset with him.

And why shouldn't he be able to go after fans he feels are attacking a player on a personal level? Sure he painted with too broad of a brush, but there are a percentage of fans who are the exact kind of people he's referring to.

If you don't personally fall into that category, then why do you care?

Is a message board the only place a writer can speak their mind?

[ballhawk]

he came on here in a very condescending way and he got called out for it. i think some us would expect a little more from a professional writer. everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but don't tell me that i'm not even worthy to read yours just because i disagree with you, which is basically what he said.

[BLSmokey]

he came on here in a very condescending way and he got called out for it. i think some us would expect a little more from a professional writer. everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but don't tell me that i'm not even worthy to read yours just because i disagree with you. which is basically what he said.

He came into a thread which was taking shots at him and defended himself. You say he was being condescending. I'd say his tone was very much in line with those he was responding to.

I don't think he's 100% right - but I don't think he's 100% wrong either.

There are some shitty fans on this planet...and I wouldn't care if they read a column I had written either.

[B-more Ravor]

A couple thoughts on Foxworth.

First, I think he's getting a bum rap here by some.

He's not a bad corner when he's healthy. After a slow start with the system, Domonique played pretty damn well for the Ravens until getting hurt. That's just a fact.

People are disappointed by him, understandably so, because he's been a non-contributor as much as a contributor. But that doesn't make him a bum.



I think that's a very fair, balanced take on Foxworth. While I thought the contract was a bit "generous", I thought he played well in late 2009 and would have been fine from there. Then, he got hurt.

That said, what disappoints me about the whole situation is that he should have been further along in his rehab and should have been ready. Now, "should have been" isn't always the case because different people heal at different rates. Still, these days, most do seem to return within that time frame and I think it's fair to question whether he had too much on his plate during the CBA negotiations. We'll obviously never know, but it would be interesting to know if he was following through on his rehab during those marathon sessions or putting it aside?

[GOTA]

And why shouldn't he be able to go after fans he feels are attacking a player on a personal level? Sure he painted with too broad of a brush, but there are a percentage of fans who are the exact kind of people he's referring to.

If you don't personally fall into that category, then why do you care?

Is a message board the only place a writer can speak their mind?

Maybe because I'm the one he quoted and painted with that broad brush

The more I think about this the more I agree with Captain Silver. Where is the article about Kyle Boller or Dan Cody or the others that had far worse things posted about them for years. Guess they weren't good enough friends of KVV to warrant the same treatment.

We're not exactly talking Bill Buckner or Mitch Wild Thing Williams here. No one is destroying Foxworth's house or lighting his car on fire. Criticism is part of being famous. Lot's of people here would take $28 million even if it meant a little abuse from the fans.

[BLSmokey]

Maybe because I'm the one he quoted and painted with that broad brush

The more I think about this the more I agree with Captain Silver. Where is the article about Kyle Boller or Dan Cody or the others that had far worse things posted about them for years. Guess they weren't good enough friends of KVV to warrant the same treatment.

Of course there's a personal bias involved in it.

Still...I have no more issue with what he said than any random post I may read on a message board on any given day. I disagree with the notion that a person isn't allowed to defend another person simply because he writes for a living. KVV supports Foxworth. A lot of fans don't.

All in all, I find this entire discussion to be much ado about nothing.

[Shas]

what disappoints me about the whole situation is that he should have been further along in his rehab and should have been ready. Now, "should have been" isn't always the case because different people heal at different rates. Still, these days, most do seem to return within that time frame and I think it's fair to question whether he had too much on his plate during the CBA negotiations. We'll obviously never know, but it would be interesting to know if he was following through on his rehab during those marathon sessions or putting it aside?

I have questions along the same lines.

I have heard the suggestion that the lock-out kept players from accessing the team's medical and training staff and that prevented proper rehab.

Manning's slow recovering from the neck surgery has been 100% blamed on the lock-out. I don't get the sense that Manning is getting dumped on for not doing what it took to recover.

Still, I'm not sure how rehab works, or if it works the same for all injuries. Was Foxworth given a rehab plan after his surgery and before the lock-out and he simply failed to follow it because there weren't trainers there to push him, or because the CBA consumed his time?

Or, does the rehab approach change frequently as staff monitors the progress to optimize the results? Is rehapping on his own destined to be ineffective?

Maybe HKusp can answer this.

Should a player like Foxworth have hired his own PT?

I really am not informed enough to know what to think.

[wickedsolo]

Manning also was flying overseas to get stem cell treatment and things.

Sure the lockout hurt, but he was obviously going above and beyond to make sure that he could try and play this year.

[Ngata Da Vida]

I asked if it really was KVV, because his little temper tantrum isn't very becoming of a professional. What does he care what we have to say about him on here? He has the high and mighty Sun, which is clearly worth paying money for. Slumming it a bit, eh? :261695:

[B-more Ravor]

I have questions along the same lines.

......

Still, I'm not sure how rehab works, or if it works the same for all injuries. Was Foxworth given a rehab plan after his surgery and before the lock-out and he simply failed to follow it because there weren't trainers there to push him, or because the CBA consumed his time?

Or, does the rehab approach change frequently as staff monitors the progress to optimize the results? Is rehapping on his own destined to be ineffective?
.


That's the thing. Foxworth injured his knee in late July and had surgery in August. He had access to the Ravens medical staff until early March (7 months) and said at some point last winter that he was ahead of schedule.

Compare that to Webb the season before - he was hurt in December and had surgery in January. He was back practicing in August (7 months).

Again, different people heal differently, but Foxworth had an additional 4 months til TC (and 5 til the start of the season).

Given those time frames, I think it's fair to wonder what happened since early March and why he wasn't ready?

[BLSmokey]

Again, different people heal differently, but Foxworth had an additional 4 months til TC (and 5 til the start of the season).

Given those time frames, I think it's fair to wonder what happened since early March and why he wasn't ready?

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_logukwq7a71qzp2d2.gif

[KVV1]

Let me take one more shot at this since I obviously wrote with more emotion than clarity.

1. It's obvious I like Foxworth. I think he's a good man. He didn't play up to the contract the Ravens gave him, but so be it. It happens. He gets paid large sums of money to play a professional sport, and when you don't play well, criticism is part of that trade-off. Even vicious criticism.

2. Foxworth didn't play well for the first five or six games of his Ravens career. He fell down a lot, got pushed around a bit, was completely hung out to dry by Greg Mattison's ridiculous refusal to blitz (particularly in the San Diego game, and in the first Cincy game) and from that point, a lot fans formed an opinion about him that never went away. It didn't matter that he played pretty solid football down the stretch, that he held Randy Moss to only three catches for 50 yards, that he played really well against the Vikings while Favre beat Fabian Washington and Frank Walker like a drum, that he picked off Jay Cutler twice when Chicago came to Baltimore, that he played very good coverage on Reggie Wayne in the regular season game against the Colts (and he and Ed Reed tricked Peyton Manning into throwing a pick with a coverage they'd been working on for weeks, knowing Manning would fall for it). He even played well in the regular season game against Pittsburgh, including the interception he returned for a touchdown that was called back because of a penalty when Suggs clipped 20 yards behind the play. None of that mattered to the people who already disliked him, and thought he was "soft." He got beat by Wayne in the playoff game on a double move, and that wiped away any good he'd done throughout the year.

3. After he injured his knee, the criticism stopped being about his play and slowly began for some -- not all, but some -- to get personal. That's what annoyed me. Someone had to stand up for the players in those meetings with the owners. Someone had to argue eloquently on their behalf. And a lot of the players we love to watch play football? That's just not their skill set. But that was important for the future of the NFL. And if you're furious at him for "not taking his rehab seriously," that's too bad. Because he was doing all that he could, without have access to Ravens doctors, facilities, etc. That's what I was (perhaps arrogantly) wagging my finger at, when it became personal. And what I wish I would have written was, "If you feel like Domonique Foxworth is a worthless bum and you find it clever to call him Foxworthless, you might as well not read me anymore. Because I'm not sure you're going to get anything out of it." Not that you don't have a right to your opinion, because you certainly do. Just that I don't view things a certain way, and this column is going to be written from that point of view. And if you're not one of those people -- if you're disappointed in Foxworth's play, maybe even really disappointed, but you also understand he tried hard and isn't a selfish guy and represented the Ravens well and that it's a shame things didn't work out because it would have been nice to see a local kid do well, but oh well -- then I'm not talking about you. Did I say it like an asshole? Unfortunately, yes. I should have said it better. But again, unless you said nasty things about Foxworth, I'm not talking about you. GOTA, if you feel like I called you out personally, I apologize. You said you wouldn't miss anything about my column, and if that's true, I respect your honesty. I wish I could have done more to make you feel like there was value to it.

3. The Internet is a fascinating, weird place sometimes. People think it's weird that I might show up here and interact with people over something I wrote, maybe even defend myself, but I don't really get that. A lot of reporters think it's beneath them, but I kind of like it. I think message boards are interesting, which is probably why I took some of the nasty Foxworth comments more seriously than I should have. (And again, if you didn't make them, what I said shouldn't bother you.) That's a flaw in my character, I guess. I think it's so silly to say I'm "slumming it" or that it's "unprofessional" to interact with people who, you know, actually might be reading the product. Isn't that an indictment of this place instead of me? If you hang out here and share your Ravens thoughts, why would it be embarrassing for me to do the same? The internet has erased a lot of those walls. I find it sort of cowardly when writers act like they're above their readers.

4. I wrote a story once about John Unitas, on the fifth anniversary of his death. I spent a few days going around to various places in Baltimore that he had frequented while he was alive, and I interviewed all of his kids. I sat in Club 4100, in the place where he usually sat, and ordered his favorite drink and talked to some of the people who were there. One thing that stood out, that I've never forgotten, is the people who talked about how much it meant to them that Unitas felt like he was a part of the community. That you could sit with him and talk football, even if you were a steelworker or a cop or a construction worker. If you went to his restaurant, he'd often come by your table and talk to you for a minute. And they lamented how unfortunate it was that that era was gone. NFL players lived in McMansions and spent their off-season in Florida and the closest you could get to them was often the moment when they ran up the tunnel and slapped a few high fives before disappearing. Well, Domonique Foxworth was a reminder it doesn't always have to be like that. He didn't do community stuff for PR reasons. He did it because being a part of Baltimore -- warts and all -- actually does matter to him. Now, that might not matter to you. Maybe you don't give a damn about anything that happens outside the white lines, whether someone beats up their girlfriend or wins a Nobel Prize, as long as they're good enough at football, that's all the matters. And that opinion is fine. I'm not going to tell you that's wrong. In many respects, it's an honest, no-b.s. way of following sports. I just view them differently. I think it's ok to say, "It's too bad he wasn't a great player, but oh well. He didn't embarrass the Ravens. He represented them as well as he could, but this is a business, and now we move on." That's my point of view, and if you believe that's dumb, I'm a thin-skinned ninny, and screw Domonique Foxworthless, then there are a ton of people out there who can cater to your viewpoint.

5. I'm not always great about answering emails in a timely fashion, but I'm happy to get them. I don't have a problem with being called an asshole. Sometimes it's good for me, frankly. The thing is, people mostly choose to rip on the Internet instead of emailing the writer. And I understand that, because a lot of writers simply won't respond. But that's why I decided to chime in. I spoke up on the SunTalk boards, and at Orioles Hangout, and if this is going to be the new Ravens hangout, I have no problem speaking up here on occasion. I like the accountability, frankly. If this was your first experience reading anything I've written, then obviously I seem like a giant dick. But I would hope I've built up a little credibility over time.

I have some regrets about the way I told people to piss off and not read me anymore. But I don't regret sticking up for Foxworth. You've got to occasionally stand up for the people you admire, even if it costs you. Foxworth stood up for his union, even though it may have cost him personally. He could have asked someone else, someone less qualified, to do the dirty work for the NFLPA, and rehabbed his knee 14 hours a day, and from the Ravens perspective, maybe that would have been better. But maybe the NFLPA would have been worse off, so he did what he thought was right. Professional athletes are people too, despite the pay stubs. It's easy to forget sometimes.

Anyway, thanks to those of you who made it through that long-winded response, and for those of you who choose to continue reading the Sun, whether you think I'm a jerk or not, I thank you as well.

kevin.vanvalkenburg@baltsun.com

[HoustonRaven]

Great post KVV but I have a pointed, if not personal question.

Could some of your support come from a union point of view? I assume you are a part if one, thus your support of his work has some influence along those lines.

And I do not want to turn this into pro versus anti union. Just trying to get more into your background.

[dandrews]

That's the thing. Foxworth injured his knee in late July and had surgery in August. He had access to the Ravens medical staff until early March (7 months) and said at some point last winter that he was ahead of schedule.

Compare that to Webb the season before - he was hurt in December and had surgery in January. He was back practicing in August (7 months).

Again, different people heal differently, but Foxworth had an additional 4 months til TC (and 5 til the start of the season).

Given those time frames, I think it's fair to wonder what happened since early March and why he wasn't ready?

The same thing that happened to Wes Welker and Lardarius Webb. Unless your name is Evgeni Malkin, it takes a while to recover from torn knee ligaments.

[KVV1]

I'm a member of our newspaper guild, yes. Although I don't think that has much to do with my feelings about Dom. (His union is so different from mine, they're barely in the same zip code. One of my best friends, Rick Maese, was axed by the Sun because he didn't have seniority. Let's just say I have some issues with unions, even though I think they're important in principal.) I was the Maryland football beat writer when Foxworth was there, and I have known him for a number of years. I respect him. I just think he's admirable person, regardless of his politics or his worldview. Andrew Crummey, a conservative (or libertarian, to be more accurate) was a member of those Maryland teams and I really admire him as well. He and Dom used to argue about politics, and they both felt like they got something out of it. They're both smart guys who read books and understand there is a big picture to life.

As for the assertion (made by GOTA above) that I would only stick up for someone who I was friendly with, I wasn't really covering the Ravens when Kyle Boller and Dan Cody were on the team, so I never got that chance. I think the Ravens handled Boller was a little unfair, throwing him into the fire with a offensive staff that had no clue how to develop him. But I think there were warning signs he was never going to be a great NFL quarterback anyway (his completion percentage, for starters). Ripping him for sucking was, as I said above, part of the job. But I know Boller worked hard and wanted to be good. I don't think he was lazy or stupid. I would have had no problem defending him against that stuff if people said it about him, even though I never had a conversation with him.

[ballhawk]

KVV-

that was a great post. the way you started off that first post was inflammatory and immediately put alot of readers on the defensive, but you make a valid argument.

i just don't necessarily feel that the lockout prevented foxworth from getting anything that he couldn't get on his own. surely he could have afforded doctors and trainers on par with those that work for the ravens. it seems like he chose not to and it hurt the ravens this season. nothing personal.

[StingerNLG]

am unimpressed. If anything, it is a clever ploy to get more eyes on the article. In the very merit of the writing readers are specifically told not to read him if they feel or think a certain way. Brilliant. His piece is getting more eyes and reads now then ever before.

Also, I think it unfair of you to judge a forum because the posters you moderate disagree with what a writer from a newspaper that is often criticized around here for the way it reports on the Ravens and treat it's fans on their forum.

I consider myself part of the "forum" and take your meaning that "I" should be better than what? Giving my opinion?

First off, he didn't come here and paste a link to his article and say "hey look at this". Someone else quoted him first. So to suggest a "ploy" means the original quoter is in on this too. Are we going there?

Second, I don't care if you agree or disagree with him. But he was attacked after his first post, and to me not in the tone of civil debate. And I will call that when I see it. I'm sorry if that offends anyone, but that's the way it is.

Third, you misunderstand the point, which is why you somehow think you can't give your opinion. I'm not going to even go into that here. If you like, you are welcome to PM me.

[KVV1]

i just don't necessarily feel that the lockout prevented foxworth from getting anything that he couldn't get on his own. surely he could have afforded doctors and trainers on par with those that work for the ravens. it seems like he chose not to and it hurt the ravens this season. nothing personal.

I think it's difficult to say. I think he did the best he could. I know how badly he wanted to play this season, and play well. Peyton Manning was in some ways in the same situation. I don't know that Indy fans are furious with him, even though his injury hurt the Ravens far more than Foxworth's injury could have ever hurt the Ravens. Yeah, you can hire your own trainer or doctor, but you want to work with someone you can trust. And even if you do hire someone, how do you go about finding a qualified, credible person who essentially be on call for you the way Ravens doctors are? Can you find someone with experience rehabbing ACL injuries in professional athletes? Can they travel with you if you have to meeting the NFL owners in Minneapolis or Los Angeles or Miami? I think it's easy to say, but the logistics are complicated. The lockout was just a once-in-a-decade cluster(bleep). There were going to be casualties. ACL injuries don't all heal the same either.

I just feel like it was the perfect storm of frustration. If Jimmy Smith doesn't get injured, the Ravens probably don't have to put Foxworth out there for the entire Tennessee game. And maybe they could bring him along slowly and maybe get SOMETHING out of him this year. Maybe he even gets back to 100 percent by the end of the year, and when they face New England and Brady lines up with 4-wide every play and throws it 56 times, they have multiple corners to throw at him.

Now they're on the hook for his whole salary either way. It's too bad for everyone.

[Captain Silver]

KVV I respect your point of view, I don't agree with some of it, but that is what makes debate interesting. I do applaud you NOT hiding behind an email address and a microphone and perhaps this newer mentality of engaging with the fans is a sign you may have a future beyond the setting Sun.

As for feelings on a player, I'm not sure how much you could defend a player like Kyle Boller when one of your own at the Sun routinely savaged the man. You'd be picking a fight in your own back yard on defending Ravens even before you got to the fans.

I feel where you are coming from in defending "Dom". He's a nice guy, local, and spent some time with you. Likewise, I had a friend who is brothers with a former Raven, who was also hurt bad, and it was annoying to hear people say something bad about him. Hell, I've defended Brian Billick for years to little avail.

All I'm saying is, don't let chuckle heads on the net or on the radio get you worked up. Hell, even I don't take myself that serious!

[Raveninwoodlawn]

An ACL used to be a 12 month rehab with intensive therapy.

Some players have come back sooner (although still not at 100%) and that seems to have completely warped some opinions of recovery time.

There is a difference between hiring your own doctors and doing your own rehab and the rehab you get with the team...you get 100% attention every single day, 24 hours a day with the team as opposed to your typical private doctors.

And while people want to brush aside his work in the CBA, that stuff takes a lot out of you...mentally, physically and a lot more of his time than some of you seem to want to acknowledge.

[Captain Silver]

First off, he didn't come here and paste a link to his article and say "hey look at this". Someone else quoted him first. So to suggest a "ploy" means the original quoter is in on this too. Are we going there?

Second, I don't care if you agree or disagree with him. But he was attacked after his first post, and to me not in the tone of civil debate. And I will call that when I see it. I'm sorry if that offends anyone, but that's the way it is.

Third, you misunderstand the point, which is why you somehow think you can't give your opinion. I'm not going to even go into that here. If you like, you are welcome to PM me.

No, I'm not saying that, it just took a life of its own.

As for him being attacked, some yes, some no. Broad stroked brush being used.

Your point generalized the "forum", don't let a bad post lead to your disappointment in us.

[Shas]

KVV,
Thanks for continuing to post. From my earlier post it should be clear that I very much agree with your point of view about Foxworth's place in Ravens history. Foxworth was mistreated online and on air by fans who seem to resent the money he got and don't seem interested in any rationale about his level of play, or the causes thereof.

We fans are strange because we see everything through the lens of expectations. The money set the expectation bar so high for Foxworth. Too bad, because it could have been a great story about a Baltimore kid who clearly will be going on to even greater things.

I've contacted you in the past regarding one of your stories in the Sun, and I can say you seemed to appreciate the exchange as much as I did. I like your perspective.

Unlike some of the columnists who cover the Ravens and choose--or are encouraged--to sensationalize stories for the sake of stimulating readers, I think you simply write the truth. So I enjoy your thoughtful stuff just as much as I enjoyed reading some of the Sun's scribes from the past (Eisenberg comes to mind). You're passionate, yet genuine. And I'm not just kissing ass here. Because I don't mind kicking ass if it's called for -- I'm talking to you Mr. Cunningham...again.

The most intersting statement you made from my point of view is #3, regarding how strange the internet is, and how flummoxed the print media seems to be about how to deal with, egad, actual contact with readers--albeit perhaps the sort of contact you might expect if blindly reaching through a peep show curtain.

A strange place indeed. I for one am very curious where this is all going, and how readers will consume news in the future while at the same time writers will get paid.

[Captain Silver]

How do you go about finding a qualified, credible person who essentially be on call for you the way Ravens doctors are?

Union Memorial. When my wife tore up her knee, I took her there and still do. They are the doctors the Ravens use, and I didn't have a 28 million dollar contract either. :D

[moose10101]

The sad fact is, five days from now, even most of the people who agree with you 100% about Foxworth may not be reading your column.

[KVV1]

The sad fact is, five days from now, even most of the people who agree with you 100% about Foxworth may not be reading your column.

#coughcoughfifteenfreeviewspermonthcoughcough

[BLSmokey]

#coughcoughfifteenfreeviewspermonthcoughcough

gCySTWFcnlM

[myfavoriteboxer]

Do we know for sure that really was KVV?

He confirmed it to me on Twitter:
http://i.imgur.com/ptvx0.png

[B-more Ravor]

The same thing that happened to Wes Welker and Lardarius Webb. Unless your name is Evgeni Malkin, it takes a while to recover from torn knee ligaments.

Yes, I addressed Webb in the post that you quoted. And, both came back much, much sooner.


An ACL used to be a 12 month rehab with intensive therapy.

Some players have come back sooner (although still not at 100%) and that seems to have completely warped some opinions of recovery time.

Some players do come back sooner than others, I agree, and addressed that in my post.

These days, though, "coming back sooner" is the norm. It used to take 12 months (heck, they used to say that it was until the 2nd season after surgery that the player was finally 100%), but it's not that way anymore.


There is a difference between hiring your own doctors and doing your own rehab and the rehab you get with the team...you get 100% attention every single day, 24 hours a day with the team as opposed to your typical private doctors.

And while people want to brush aside his work in the CBA, that stuff takes a lot out of you...mentally, physically and a lot more of his time than some of you seem to want to acknowledge.

I agree there's a difference, but even then, with full team medical supervision, it's not 24x7.

I just question how he went from ahead of schedule to so far behind with, what is now, extra time to recover. I'd really like to know how much rehab he was doing during that period? Maybe he was stepping away from negotiations for a couple of hours to do rehab, which would seem reasonable to me. If he wasn't, then he should have been. I agree that the work in the CBA was important and often very time consuming, but he also had a contract with the Ravens - that paid him handsomely - to honor, as well.

[phacts]

KVV, I agree with you on Foxworth. I think he's a decent cornerback when he is healthy, but people acting like they know he "didn't do enough to recover" sound foolish to me. How the fuck does anyone know what he did and didn't do? How does anyone know what is "enough" ?!? They don't.

Anyway, regardless of whether I agree with you on Foxworth, you are the only writer worth reading at The Sun, and when the paywall goes up, I'll miss reading your Five Things column. It's literally the only thing I look forward to over there, and has been since you started it (last season, I believe...?). The only other thing I look forward to as much is FilmStudy's weekly reviews that he has been posting on this site for years. Those are awesome as well (mad props Film)!!

Enough out of me.

[phacts]

15 free views per month?!?! Great! I know what I'm using those on... also +1 for the clip from The Wire above!

[KVV1]

I agree that the work in the CBA was important and often very time consuming, but he also had a contract with the Ravens - that paid him handsomely - to honor, as well.

While this is true now, it technically was not true during the lockout. When the owners decided it was important for them to bar the players from working, to opt out of the previously agreed upon deal, Foxworth did not have an obligation to the team at that point. That may be parsing it somewhat, but it's also the reality. Did he have a moral obligation to get ready for the season, especially considering he'd already been paid for a year he didn't play? Again, that's tough to say. He was hurt on the job. It's not like he injured his knee playing basketball somewhere. The huge financial numbers skew our perspective, I think. It's easy to say "If I were getting paid that much, I'd do whatever I needed to play, and to heck with the union. They're not paying me $28 million." But the union is one of the reasons people like Foxworth (and Ngata, and Suggs, and Lewis, and Flacco, etc.) make that kind of money. Otherwise, it would go right into the owners pockets. Just because it's a huge sum to regular joes like us doesn't mean the players don't deserve it.

In that technical sense, the Ravens seem to want to have it both ways. By locking out a player like Foxworth, they were making it more difficult for him to prepare for a season -- assuming there was going to be one. But at the same time, they seem to wish he had focused more on getting ready for the season and spent less time at the bargaining table. That's why it's an unfortunate situation all around.

[B-more Ravor]

While this is true now, it technically was not true during the lockout. When the owners decided it was important for them to bar the players from working, to opt out of the previously agreed upon deal, Foxworth did not have an obligation to the team at that point. That may be parsing it somewhat, but it's also the reality.

In that technical sense, the Ravens seem to want to have it both ways. By locking out a player like Foxworth, they were making it more difficult for him to prepare for a season -- assuming there was going to be one. But at the same time, they seem to wish he had focused more on getting ready for the season and spent less time at the bargaining table. That's why it's an unfortunate situation all around.

Yeah, I hear ya, but, in the end, Foxworth lost no money whatsoever.

Yes, contracts were voided and the players lockout, but somehow, the vast majority of players came into camps in good shape and ready to go. I realize Foxworth had an extra burden, but I still feel that he had other obligations that may have gotten pushed aside to an extent.

And, to be clear, I'm not one of those who has piled on Foxworth extra harshly (or even harshly, at all) for his play on the field. I expected him to be ready to start the season and even expected that he would - and should - be one of the starters at CB in week 1.

[Shas]

In that technical sense, the Ravens seem to want to have it both ways. By locking out a player like Foxworth, they were making it more difficult for him to prepare for a season -- assuming there was going to be one. But at the same time, they seem to wish he had focused more on getting ready for the season and spent less time at the bargaining table. That's why it's an unfortunate situation all around.

On that point, is it fair to question the need to have Foxworth in the room extensively during the negotiations?

I understand he is an elected representative, and so it's not absurd to expect him to participate. On the other hand, other than Jeff Saturday, I'm not sure any other players put in anything close to the amount of time Foxworth put in. (Mason, for instance.) And I don't believe Saturday was dealing with a rehab burden. And they certainly paid handsomely for professional representation.

If that's a fair observation, then it brings into question whether Foxworth was more concerned about preparing for his post-football career than he was interested in preparing for his now-football career. It's a question. The time he put into the former may have dictated his fate on the latter.

[B-more Ravor]

I see you added to your post while I was posting my response.


That may be parsing it somewhat, but it's also the reality. Did he have a moral obligation to get ready for the season, especially considering he'd already been paid for a year he didn't play? Again, that's tough to say. He was hurt on the job. It's not like he injured his knee playing basketball somewhere. The huge financial numbers skew our perspective, I think. It's easy to say "If I were getting paid that much, I'd do whatever I needed to play, and to heck with the union. They're not paying me $28 million." But the union is one of the reasons people like Foxworth (and Ngata, and Suggs, and Lewis, and Flacco, etc.) make that kind of money. Otherwise, it would go right into the owners pockets. Just because it's a huge sum to regular joes like us doesn't mean the players don't deserve it.


I agree that life in the NFL bears no correlation to the rest of us in the real world, and have never made that comparison, so I'll dispose of that right off the bat.

But, let's not forget that he had already received over $17M over the 1st 2 years of his contract. He's due $4.4M this year. That IS good pay - by NFL standards. Whether that creates some moral obligation is in the eye of the beholder, I guess.

As far as his work for the union being important, of course it is. The question for me is, did that impede his rehab too much? Could he have found a better balance between the two? I realize that he's probably headed for De Smith's job in the future, but I doubt they couldn't have done without him at times, while he got himself ready to play football.

Maybe he did everything he could and it just didn't work out?

Or, maybe, he could have done more?

I guess there's no way to know for sure - but what we do know is that he wasn't ready and the time frame suggest that he reasonable should have been. As such, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that there are going to be those to question his approach.

[KVV1]

On that point, is it fair to question the need to have Foxworth in the room extensively during the negotiations?

I understand he is an elected representative, and so it's not absurd to expect him to participate. On the other hand, other than Jeff Saturday, I'm not sure any other players put in anything close to the amount of time Foxworth put in. (Mason, for instance.) And I don't believe Saturday was dealing with a rehab burden. And they certainly paid handsomely for professional representation.

If that's a fair observation, then it brings into question whether Foxworth was more concerned about preparing for his post-football career than he was interested in preparing for his now-football career. It's a question. The time he put into the former may have dictated his fate on the latter.

There is a big difference between members of the NFLPA executive committee (an 11-person group Foxworth was a member of) and the 32 team reps (which is what Mason was, although only for one year; it was Matt Stover and then Todd Heap for much of the last 10 years.) The executive committee was the ones actually doing all the negotiations. They were at the table, arguing point by point, fighting over what the next CBA would say. The player reps -- like Mason -- had very little day-to-day responsibility. With respect to Mason, I talked him on the phone a couple times during the lockout, and he admitted he was getting all his information from Foxworth and conference calls with DeMaurice Smith that all players were asked to be a part of.

Being on the executive committee was a much bigger responsibility, but again, somone had to do it. Foxworth was literally one of a handful of players in the entire NFL who were doing the line-by-line negotiations. And considering he has an MBA, and has been active in the Players union for years, he was a pretty good choice to do it as far as the players were concerned. Several owners said after the fact that he was a big part of bringing the two sides together. I'm pretty sure he was the only member of the executive committee to be praised by name by both the players and owners.

[SC_Raven_Fan]

So let me get this straight:

Ozzie Newsome back-doored the League by handsomely compensating an employee knowing that said employee would work against the league as a representative of the players union that Ozzie used to be a part of?

I LOVE IT!

[Shas]

There is a big difference between members of the NFLPA executive committee (an 11-person group Foxworth was a member of) and the 32 team reps (which is what Mason was, although only for one year; it was Matt Stover and then Todd Heap for much of the last 10 years.)

Thanks for clarifying. That certainly helps substantiates why he put in the time he did.

Still, I got the impression, fairly or not, that Foxworth's interests in the business side of football (vis-a-vis the extreme time spent in negotiations and the MBA pursuit), while admirable, have set him up for these questions about his dedication to the on-the-field side of football.

While I won't argue that his efforts on behalf of the players are admirable, and he seems like a great person, a multi-million dollar contract creates a reasonable expectation that a person is going to work pretty damn hard on fullfilling the demands of that contract.

I get the fact that getting shut out by the league (an event that DeMaurice pretty much orchastrated as part of the NFLPA strategy) temporarily relieved him of those contract obligations. But I still would expect him to be testing the knee and doing what he could to assure he was ready to go once the ink dried on the new CBA.

Let me put it this way. If Terrell Suggs had spent the summer flying to Cannes, partying late into the night, getting fat-assed again, and then came back and laid an egg in the first four games, no one in their right mind would defend him by saying that the league shut him out and so the team should not have expected to stay in shape and come in ready to perform.

So as much as I like Domonique, and have defended him here, I don't think the admittedly important work on the CBA is any more of a valid reason not to prepare for the season than Suggs' partying would have been.

Either you can pursue both interests, or you can't. I can't see how his obligation to the NFLPA supercedes his obligation to the Ravens, even with the CBA hiatus. If he put the interests of the NFLPA ahead of the team, and then came back and made noise about how the team better not financially penalize him, then that's wrong.

[StingerNLG]

Your point generalized the "forum", don't let a bad post lead to your disappointment in us.

I am not disappointed in all of you. I just think we are better than what this thread was showing, and I'm glad it's working itself out and we're back on track. :)

[StingerNLG]

As far as his work for the union being important, of course it is. The question for me is, did that impede his rehab too much? Could he have found a better balance between the two? I realize that he's probably headed for De Smith's job in the future, but I doubt they couldn't have done without him at times, while he got himself ready to play football.

Maybe he did everything he could and it just didn't work out?

Or, maybe, he could have done more?

I guess there's no way to know for sure - but what we do know is that he wasn't ready and the time frame suggest that he reasonable should have been. As such, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that there are going to be those to question his approach.

My only question on this, and I'm not taking a side on it either way, was his rehab also impeded by the lockout and the team's inability to use the facilities and team doctors, etc:? Can you do the same type of rehab when you are not allowed to interact with the team?

[SC_Raven_Fan]

After 6 pages, I'm sure this point was already made: that Kevin admires that Foxworth sacrificed his body's healing process, and thus advancing his career, in order fight for the rights of players.

I admire the sacrifice as a man, but as a fan of the Baltimore Ravens, I'm disappointed. I knew he wouldn't be 100%. No player returns to their best form after 12 months of treatment for an ACL. Welker's awesome stats this year are 20months (or so) removed from his ACL tear. Webb is back back to previous form after a similar time frame. As a fan, I was, however, looking forward to Foxworth being a part-time contributor. I especially thought the coaching/FO staff had a good pulse on his health situation after allowing Wilson to commute down I95 to the RacialSlurs. Then he winds up on IR after 4 games. More disappointment.

There is blame to go around, IMO. I hope Foxy can recuperate with the help of the Ravens trainers. I'm not sure that I want him to be a Raven whether he is healthy or not. His contract didn't match his production.

[B-more Ravor]

My only question on this, and I'm not taking a side on it either way, was his rehab also impeded by the lockout and the team's inability to use the facilities and team doctors, etc:? Can you do the same type of rehab when you are not allowed to interact with the team?

I am sure that you can rehab just as well with other doctors as with the Ravens' docs. It might not be exactly the same way the Ravens' medical staff would want you to do your rehab, but you can rehab just as well (since there are often equally good, but different approaches, of going about it).

Plus, I'm sure that before the lockout, there was some sort of plan put in place and arrangements made so that his rehab would follow a prescribed schedule.

What was missing during the lockout was more the team's ability to keep track of the rehab and monitor it. And, if needed, push him to rehab better (if that became necessary). However, I don't think he needed to be at the facility to do his rehab and there are plenty of "sports medicine" doctors he could have seen and "sports medicine" facilities where he could have rehabbed. I don't think the Ravens or the NFL has the corner on the market for such type of care and, again, I would think that would have all been worked out ahead of time.

[Captain Silver]

I am not disappointed in all of you. I just think we are better than what this thread was showing, and I'm glad it's working itself out and we're back on track. :)

Likewise my friend, likewise. :cheeky:

[JimZipCode]

An ACL used to be a 12 month rehab with intensive therapy.
An ACL used to be a career-ender.