What to do about Joe? (Merged)

[webbrick2007]

So if when all is said and done and no one else in this thread agrees with your interpretation, it will be clear that your opinion is a mere outlier, and thus likely not very accurate.

You seem pretty serious about a radio show at a car dealership...I'm pretty sure you are taking it more serious than anyone else involved, including Webb and Flacco.

Serious?

I was asking how people felt about an interview. I was just curious.

I'ts you guys that are too serious.

[Everything_Ravens]

Interesting but not surprising !
They took away his favorite targets in the off season coming into his contract year! Now his numbers take a hit right along with some of his leverage at the bargaining table when that time comes!

Im hoping they can introduce Joe to Ben Franklin & Norv Turner in the off season

[AntiMoon]

34 attempts is a ton?

He had 59 in a game earlier. Sea maybe? As for the OP I don't think he was crazy at all in what he heard. I just heard it different. Who's to say I'm right? Maybe I'm the crazy one?

[RavenMadness]

FWIW... they will be playing clips on 105.7 in a few minutes.. (just announced by Zinno)

[bt12483]

I heard bits and pieces of it and did not hear anything approaching the negativity of what has been suggested. So if he said anything like that, it was when I wasn't listening. so thats 3-1 against the OP.


Let me hazard this guess. If Joe really said that the Ravens offense sucks, it's not his fault, it's everyone else's, especially Cam's, so he should get paid more...then my guess is that every national sports program would be playing clips all day long. yes that would be a logical assumption.

instead, it is shaping up to be merely one person's personal bias sculpting an inaccurate replay of the comments that were actually made.

[RavensNTerps]

34 attempts is a ton?

34 passes thrown + 7 sacks + 1 scramble = 42 passing attempts.

As compared with 13 rushing attempts to our RBs.

So yeah, I'd say a 42:14 ratio is a ton.

[bt12483]

Serious?

I was asking how people felt about an interview. I was just curious.

I'ts you guys that are too serious.

You weren't asking anything.

Here is the first post of the thread:

Flacco was on the Ladrius Webb show last night. I found his comments very disturbing. He talked about wanting to make the Ravens a team that scored 50 points a game and threw for 400 yards a game, but said "that is not how it is done around here". He also joked that Ladarius wished he was a QB because "QB's get paid". Made some comment that he hasn't got paid yet, but QB's get paid. In summary his comments came accross as:

1. The offense isn't good, but it's how things are done around here, I'm trying to change it but I can't fix the system. Didn't hide his disdain for Cam very well.

2. I not getting paid, but I should be.

3. I'm not the problem, everyone else is.

To me he sounded like he was 15 not 25. Really make me doubt that he is capable of being the leader of the team.

You were telling us all what Joe Flacco said, as YOU heard it, and it just so happened to all be incredibly negative.

And no one has yet to agree with you.

[bt12483]

34 passes thrown + 7 sacks + 1 scramble = 42 passing attempts.

As compared with 13 rushing attempts to our RBs.

So yeah, I'd say a 42:14 ratio is a ton.

Cool so now you are manufacturing attempts. Why don't the record books record attempts like you do?

[lovefootball]

Was it Baltimore Joe or New Jersey Joe doing the interview? One would have more attitude.

[bt12483]

FWIW... they will be playing clips on 105.7 in a few minutes.. (just announced by Zinno)

listening right now...zinno doesnt understand a lot of the criticism

[webbrick2007]

You weren't asking anything.

Here is the first post of the thread:


You were telling us all what Joe Flacco said, as YOU heard it, and it just so happened to all be incredibly negative.

And no one has yet to agree with you.

Yep, so what.

I felt that he did alot of whining and it was immature. It makes me question his leadership abilities. Joking that your teammate doesn't and never will make as much money as you, is not smart.

It's my interpretation. It's okay with me if no one else got the same impression. I could be completely off base. That is why I asked for other people (who actually listened to the interview) to respond with their impressions.

[RavensNTerps]

Cool so now you are manufacturing attempts. Why don't the record books record attempts like you do?

What? You can't be serious. Can you? Are you just trolling?

Joe dropped back to pass 42 times in the San Diego game and handed off to a RB 13 times.

What exactly am I manufacturing?

But even if in your weird convuluted world you don't count the 7 sacks and 1 scramble as designed passing plays 34:13 is still a healthy "ton" of a ratio of passes:runs, no?

[bt12483]

Yep, so what. it's on right now and i will know you are full of it.


I felt that he did alot of whining and it was immature. It makes me question his leadership abilities. the question was asking him about criticisms toward him - of course he is defending himself.


Joking that your teammate doesn't and never will make as much money as you, is not smart. it was a joke. you are holding a joke against him? you think Webb hates him now? please...


It's my interpretation. It's okay with me if no one else got the same impression. I could be completely off base. That is why I asked for other people (who actually listened to the interview) to respond with their impressions.you seem to be completely off base. i am listening right now.

[HoustonRaven]

Unless this interview changes dramatically, I don't see how anyone can say anything other than he's being honest, respectful, up front and confident.

[festivus]

Mods, I know you don't like to move threads around, but I would *love* to see all these threads that become referendumbs (heh. get it?) about Joe Flacco get merged. I am concerned any other football talk is being drowned out by the noise.

/2cents

edit: ninja'ed by HR. I'll play along.

I don't know what he's like behind closed doors, but in every venue I've ever seen him, live or on the media, that dude is 100% class. Get after him about his skills under center if you want, but I couldn't care less about the opinion of one guy I already have on 'Ignore,' particularly when it's already been repudiated by three people who heard the same interview.

[bt12483]

What? You can't be serious. Can you? Are you just trolling?

Joe dropped back to pass 42 times in the San Diego game and handed off to a RB 13 times.

What exactly am I manufacturing?

But even if in your weird convuluted world you don't count the 7 sacks and 1 scramble as designed passing plays 34:13 is still a healthy "ton" of a ratio of passes:runs, no?
If the records were kept as you portray above then Big Ben would take a serious hit to his career records with all of the sacks he has taken.

It's cool. Make shit up to make things looks worse for Flacco. If he went 13/13 or 23/23 or 34/34 or 40/40 you would still be complaining about him.

[pyite32]

bt did webrick piss on your cheerios this morning? I don't understand the hate for his interpretation that he was asking others opinions about.

Then you jump on raventerp. Do you have anything to add or are you just here to tear down other people?

[Agent 47]

Just heard the replay. Sorry, OP...but I didn't get that impression, the way you described it, at all.

Say what you will about Flacco, but he's always been pretty plainspoken and almost never pulls any punches.

[RavensNTerps]

If the records were kept as you portray above then Big Ben would take a serious hit to his career records with all of the sacks he has taken.

It's cool. Make shit up to make things looks worse for Flacco. If he went 13/13 or 23/23 or 34/34 or 40/40 you would still be complaining about him.

LOL LOL LOL LOL YOU CANT POSSIBLY BE SERIOUS.

The question is are we a running team? Why aren't more passing plays called?

FORTY TWO PASSING PLAYS WERE CALLED OUT OF FIFTY FIVE TOTAL OFFENSIVE SNAPS AGAINST SAN DIEGO.

How can you even possibly remotely try to argue otherwise?

Those records ARE kept, buddy. I didn't just memorize them.

[Jeremiah W]

Just heard it.

Joe did sound sort of frustrated by the conservative approach and the critics.
He also made sure to point out the ravens had only won 1 playoff game since the Sb season before he got here and that last year he had great stats and "nobody gave a crap".

I like it. It was candid.

I am not sure he is the right guy to be in full control of the offense, but I hope he is the Qb here for the rest of his career.

[JimZipCode]

Flacco was on the Lardarius Webb show last night.
Is this online anywhere so we can listen to it?

[bt12483]

bt did webrick piss on your cheerios this morning? I don't understand the hate for his interpretation that he was asking others opinions about.

Then you jump on raventerp. Do you have anything to add or are you just here to tear down other people?

You mean people that intentionally spin things down into negativity?

It is clear from listening to the interview replay right now the OP was off base. No one agrees with his interpretation. He gets to start a thread based on inaccurate personal opinion without being challenged???

And RavenTerp is going against conventional passing analysis to make things looks worse. That isn't worthy of a rebuttal?

It's fine if you are OK with people manufacturing false realities, but I don't particularly accept it.

[RavensNTerps]

bt did webrick piss on your cheerios this morning? I don't understand the hate for his interpretation that he was asking others opinions about.

Then you jump on raventerp. Do you have anything to add or are you just here to tear down other people?

I'm trying to be nice but anyone who doesn't count sacks as passing plays and thinks they aren't kept in records probably isn't worth that effort.

[HoustonRaven]

Is this online anywhere so we can listen to it?

They are replaying it right now, breaking it down piece by piece and giving their analysis.

They just started so you can still catch the bulk of it.

[HoustonRaven]

Enough, you two.

Back on topic, please

[RavenMadness]

Is this online anywhere so we can listen to it?

is on live..105.7 the fan, but not archived as far as I know

[alienrace]

I don't need and I don't believe the board benefits from the nasty attacks on my opinion.

If you don't want people to question your opinion, don't put it out there. Don't be the Hypocritical Critic (tm).

[HoustonRaven]

1) Using your analysis places the blame for every sack on the QB. The QB is liable for every passing play. That isn't reality. The O-Line can collapse before the QB can set his feet. It is inaccurate.

2) You said "we threw a ton of times". Being sacked means nothing was thrown at all. The ball didn't leave the QB's hands. See 1).

What part of enough are you having an issue with?

Stay on topic, please. Stop with the debate with RavensNTerps.

[Haloti92]

For instance, I did hear Joe talking about their redzone offense. He made a flip comment that Aaron Rogers has more TD throws from inside the five than he has attempts with the Ravens. If you are so inclined you could take that statement and use it as proof that Joe thinks Cam is an idiot for not throwing enough in the redzone. To the contrary, Joe went on to make it clear that he's fine with them being a run-oriented redzone team and that he's happy for Rice's TDs. The way he said it, so dryly at first, could easily throw you off the scent.

I am not worried that Joe might think Cam is an idiot for not throwing the ball inside the 5 yard line. I am worried that Joe implied the difference between GB and us and Rodgers and his stats are explained by how we 'orient' our offenses. GB has 6 rushing TDs inside the 5, we have 10 (one is Flacco's). I don't think an extra 4 Passing TDs for Joe does much in trying to argue that team philosophies are the biggest difference in our relative team stats.

It isn't a big deal, but I think I would have picked a better comparison (though picking the top team/offense/QB I suppose is a default choice to measure oneself against).

I guess I would rather Joe just ignore his critics, rather than argue with them, though I know it is hard and against human nature.

[bt12483]

They said more Flacco comments were to come on 105.7.

I've still eyt to hear anything even remotely suggesting what is suggested in the OP.

[webbrick2007]

bt did webrick piss on your cheerios this morning? I don't understand the hate for his interpretation that he was asking others opinions about.

Then you jump on raventerp. Do you have anything to add or are you just here to tear down other people?

Thanks

Never thought it would be so derisive to ask for opinions on a message board.

[HoustonRaven]

bt12483 & RavensNTerps ....

Get back on topic. Now. Please.

Keep this up and you're getting whacked.

[bt12483]

What part of enough are you having an issue with?

Stay on topic, please. Stop with the debate with RavensNTerps.

see my EDIT. i posted that before i read your message.

[RavensNTerps]

What part of enough are you having an issue with?

Stay on topic, please. Stop with the debate with RavensNTerps.

I'm sorry but this is on topic, Houston.

The truth is in the last 2 games we had completely different offenses. Yeah - we ran the ball frustratingly too much and often against Cleveland even as they completely dared us to pass we steadfastly refused to pass until 3rd down for pretty much the whole second half despite them stacking the box.

Against SD we RAN 42 PASS PLAYS TO 13 RUN PLAYS.

And Joe shat the bed in that game. So if the OP is accurate in his recap of the interview, I find it disheartening.

[HoustonRaven]

I'm sorry but this is on topic, Houston.

The truth is in the last 2 games we had completely different offenses. Yeah - we ran the ball frustratingly too much and often against Cleveland even as they completely dared us to pass we steadfastly refused to pass until 3rd down for pretty much the whole second half despite them stacking the box.

Against SD we RAN 42 PASS PLAYS TO 13 RUN PLAYS.

And Joe shat the bed in that game. So if the OP is accurate in his recap of the interview, I find it disheartening.

This is about the interview, not Joe's stats or how to determine what is the appropriate way to spin or not spin his individual stats.

Comment on your thoughts on the interview. If you want to talk stats, start another thread.

[bt12483]

So if the OP is accurate in his recap of the interview, I find it disheartening.

But he isn't.

I am sure you won't have a hard time finding something else to be disheartened about regarding Flacco though.

Myself, including several here, are listening right now and nothing that has been said reflects the tone suggested in the OP.

[RavensNTerps]

This is about the interview, not Joe's stats or how to determine what is the appropriate way to spin or not spin his individual stats.

Comment on your thoughts on the interview. If you want to talk stats, start another thread.

It's not about Joe's stats. I don't care if Joe Flacco, Tyrod Taylor, Marc Bulger, or Trent Dilfer was our QB in San Diego. We called 42 pass plays.

Earlier this year wasn't everyone's big Cam Cameron compliant that we don't run the ball often enough? Didn't we get blasted for not giving Rice the ball enough in Jacksonville and Seattle? Two games that weren't blow outs like SD?

If the comments recapped in this OP are true, I find it disheartening because Flacco has had the chance to play in games where we went pass first several times this season and failed to take advantage. If you want to piss and moan whether it matters if we threw 42 times to 13 runs or 34 times to 13 runs it really doesn't matter much. His performance in that game was horrendous and it was his opportunity to prove his point - if his point is in fact what the OP conveyed.

If not, then OK.

[bacchys]

Ryan's also been throwing to a more experienced (top to bottom) receiving corps than Flacco, both in years in the NFL and years with Ryan.

[alienrace]

Thanks

Never thought it would be so derisive to ask for opinions on a message board.

You didn't ask for one, you offered yours, apparently it was quite inaccurate, and now you need to take the criticism.

[bt12483]

If the comments recapped in this OP are true, I find it disheartening because Flacco has had the chance to play in games where we went pass first several times this season and failed to take advantage. If you want to piss and moan whether it matters if we threw 42 times to 13 runs or 34 times to 13 runs it really doesn't matter much. His performance in that game was horrendous and it was his opportunity to prove his point - if his point is in fact what the OP conveyed.

If not, then OK.

They aren't. It isn't. The OP's opinion is not supported. Give up.

The fact that you keep WANTING the OP to be true just shows that you WANT to find something else to beat on Flacco about. In the SD game the defense shit the bed WAY more than Flacco did. They were absolutely torched. But of course it was all Flacco's fault to you.

[alienrace]

Let's hope it's a blip, but Flacco has regressed from a Matt Ryan to a Mark Sanchez this year. There's a sobering thought for Ravens fans.

If you actually watched these three quarterbacks play instead of looking at their numbers, you'd know this to be completely untrue.

[alienrace]

They aren't. It isn't. The OP's opinion is not supported. Give up.

The fact that you keep WANTING the OP to be true just shows that you WANT to find something else to beat on Flacco about. In the SD game the defense shit the bed WAY more than Flacco did. They were absolutely torched. But of course it was all Flacco's fault to you.

Anyone blaming the SD loss on Flacco should have his fan card revoked. And he should be banned from posting too, because that's just troll talk.

[RavensNTerps]

Anyone blaming the SD loss on Flacco should have his fan card revoked. And he should be banned from posting too, because that's just troll talk.

PM me I can explain to you just how wrong you are.

[alienrace]

PM me I can explain to you just how wrong you are.

I've got better things to do.

[HoustonRaven]

He's on vacation ....

Let's finally get back on topic please ....

[bt12483]

The fans are commenting on Flacco's interview now, kind of.

[HoustonRaven]

I admit, I do not listen to Baltimore sports radio anymore other than Rob Long.

Seems as though most saw things differently than the OP.

[bt12483]

Vinnie said Flacco has had 30 drops - not sure how that ranks in the league.

One of our WRs (Torrey??) is tied for 9th in the league in drops.

[Haloti92]

True, Joe's confidence is unfounded but it's still what you want in your QB. Unless you'd rather have Kyle Boller and his lack of confidence and lack of talent.

I don't have any problem with confidence, even unfounded confidence. But publicly verbalizing it, with dubious arguments, in a defensive response to criticism (even if the criticism is totally unwarranted, not saying it is or isn't, I don't care) is something I think would be wise to avoid. But again, what is said on a live spontaneous weekly radio show isn't anything to truly get up in arms about, imo.

I am going by your summary of the interview (not the OP's), as I have yet to hear the actual tape.

[bt12483]

Not sure if they are going to play anymore clips.

None of the exchange with Webb was played - it seems they only excerpted Flacco centric tidbits.

[Justlovemybirds]

Let's hope it's a blip, but Flacco has regressed from a Matt Ryan to a Mark Sanchez this year. There's a sobering thought for Ravens fans.

Yeeaaaaa, no (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/12/25/jets-have-a-decision-to-make-on-sanchez/)


A league source tells PFT that the Jets are beginning to realize that Sanchez may not be the answer at the position. That said, the Jets will not publicly acknowledge even the possibility that Sanchez is falling out of favor.

And Matt Ryan gets questioned (http://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-falcons/bradley-ryans-not-elite-1263995.html) just like Flacco does.

[bt12483]

Personally I know what each player does because I follow fantasy football so close.

Matt Ryan went through a rough patch mid season where he was catching a lot of heat.

And the decline of Turner in the run game has forced Atlanta to rely on Ryan and the passing game. HE has done well - but a lot of credit also goes to Julio Jones coming back healthy and putting in good YAC plays.

[purplepoe]

But he isn't.

I am sure you won't have a hard time finding something else to be disheartened about regarding Flacco though.

Myself, including several here, are listening right now and nothing that has been said reflects the tone suggested in the OP.

Maybe we should all PM you with our opinions.

Then you can screen them all and make sure the ones you disagree with are discarded and the ones you agree with make the cut.

PP

[bt12483]

Maybe we should all PM you with our opinions.

Then you can screen them all and make sure the ones you disagree with are discarded and the ones you agree with make the cut.

PP

Actually the replay of the clips on 105.7 allowed the community of posters here to decide the validity of the OP. No one agreed with him. That had nothing to do with me. I merely expressed my original skepticism which in turn was seemingly validated.

If someone has an opinion that they can fly, they are entitled to their opinion, but I wouldn't recommend them testing the validity of their opinion from the top of a building. Opinions can be wrong IMO.

[JMUpurkfool]

I listened to it last night, found nothing wrong with it. But the whole time I was thinking "Some idiot is going to twist his words and make this out to be a big deal tomorrow".

I hate being right.

[mrfactoid]

When Joe performs well in the playoffs and leads the team to a big win over Pitt or NE, where he has to come up big and does it, Then he will win over those fans. Until then what he does in the regular season or 4 straight PO' appearances isn't going to matter.

[GOTA]

Matt Ryan was having a completely "average" year along with Flacco until the Falcons had to rely on the pass more. It is quite well known that Michael "The Burner" Turner wears out at the end of the year because they burn him out in the beginning of the season. In the last 5 games Turner hasn't gone over 76 yards. The Falcons lead the league with 1 yard run plays as a result of Turner wearing down (http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/39569/77/football-daily-dose). In the beginning of the season running Turner was their offensive game plan and Ryan's numbers were in line with Joe's. Unlike Turner wearing down in Atlanta, Ray Rice has gone for 200 and 100 yards in the last 5 games, and we can still rely on him to carry a game.

First 10 games:
Ryan 2625 262.5/game 15TDs 10 INTs, 360 attempts, 36/game
Flacco: 2576 yards 257.6/game 12 TDs 8 INTs, 388 attempts, 38.8/game

Turner: 888 yards 88.8/game 9 TDs
Rice: 559 yards, 55.9/game 8 TDs

Last 5 games:
Ryan 1446 289/game 12TDs 2INTs, 197 attempts, 39.4/game
Flacco: 904 yards 180.8/game 7TDs, 4INTs, 135 attempts, 27/game

Turner: 280 yards, 56/game 1 TDs
Rice: 510 yards, 102/game 2 TDs

Ryan: increased by 17 yards/game in the last 5 games compared to first 10 games as a result of Turner averaging 32 less yards/game during the same time frame. ~4 MORE attempts/game.

Flacco: decreased by 77 yards/game in the last 5 games compared to first 10 games as a result of Rice averaging 46 more yards/game during the same time frame. ~12 LESS attempts/game.


The Falcons have had to compensate for an ineffective run game via passing more, whereas the Ravens have been able to rely on their effective run game to win games without having to pass as much. We are talking about a swing of 16 pass attempts between the declining attempts of Flacco to the rising attempts of Ryan. In the last 5 games Ryan has averaged ~13 more attempts/game and subsequently over 100 more yards passing/game. This is all shown in the "hard cold numbers" you like to speak of. The first 10 games Ryan and Flacco were very close, as usual in their careers. The last 5 games the Falcons run game has fallen off a cliff, and they've had to pass more, whereas the Ravens run game has improved and they've been able to pass less. All proven by the "hard cold numbers". Please feel free to provide your own counter analysis with "hard cold numbers".

Ryan also significantly increased his TD passes per attempt and cut down his interceptions. He went from throwing 1 TD every 24 attempts to 1 TD even 16.5 attempts. He threw an interception every 36 attempts the first 10 games and an interception every 98.5 attempts over the last 5. More attempts with about 1/3 of the picks is very impressive.

[JMUpurkfool]

When Joe performs well in the playoffs and leads the team to a big win over Pitt or NE, where he has to come up big and does it, Then he will win over those fans. Until then what he does in the regular season or 4 straight PO' appearances isn't going to matter.

No. He won't.

People said once he beat the Steelers with Ben he would win over fans. Once he lead them to a 4th quarter victory vs Ben in Heinz field he would win over those fans.

He will always have a bad game after doing something great and everybody will go apeshit.

[The Excellector]

listening right now...zinno doesnt understand a lot of the criticism

I understand it, but it doesn't always sit well with the fan in me. Last year, they didn't care how his statistics were against the lesser teams in the league. His judgment revolved around whether or not they could defeat Pittsburgh and how he helped them do it. Well, he did not play his best against Pittsburgh in the second and third games, and they lost both of those games. That is what fans harped on.

This year, his statistics are not as good, but they have swept Pittsburgh. Yet, now, fans are complaining about his statistics.

[bt12483]

Ryan also significantly increased his TD passes per attempt and cut down his interceptions. He went from throwing 1 TD every 24 attempts to 1 TD even 16.5 attempts. He threw an interception every 36 attempts the first 10 games and an interception every 98.5 attempts over the last 5. More attempts with about 1/3 of the picks is very impressive.

Julio Jones coming back from hamstring injuries helped that IMO.

Ryan has closed out the season nice though I agree.

[bt12483]

No. He won't.

People said once he beat the Steelers with Ben he would win over fans. Once he lead them to a 4th quarter victory vs Ben in Heinz field he would win over those fans.

Yup. He has cleared certain hurdles that were said to be "impossible" and people still bust on him as if he didn't.

Even if his stats don't show it I personally think he is playing better this year than ever before, especially with regards to pocket awareness, throw aways, reducing sacks, etc.

His fumbles have increased which is a concern, but many of those came as he was scrambling and didn't have the ball tucked, as he was still contemplating throwing it to make a play.

[The Excellector]

1.) He couldn't beat Pitt
2.) He couldn't beat Pitt at Heinz Field
3.) He couldn't beat Pitt when Ben Roethlisberger was healthy
4.) He can't beat Pitt in the playoffs.

It may never end. The Super Bowl may be the only thing to end it and that isn't even a guarantee.

[dandrews]

Webbrick is also the person that says Ed reed should be benched, so without first hand knowledge of the interview, don't mind me taking his analysis with a grain of salt.

[Haloti92]

LOL. I love how people speak of what 'the fans wanted/promised/said last year' as if there was some kind of contract made. It's like the twilight zone around here.

I can assure you that if Joe beats Pittsburgh in the playoffs with a decent performance, he gains 'fans.' If he beats New England the week after, with a decent performance, he gains even more. If he wins the SuperBowl with anything better than a bad performance, he gains just about everyone. As for how many 'bad performances' he would then be allowed before losing these fans, they are directly proportional to how far we advance in the playoffs and how well he plays in the playoffs.

[DarienA]

1.) He couldn't beat Pitt
2.) He couldn't beat Pitt at Heinz Field
3.) He couldn't beat Pitt when Ben Roethlisberger was healthy
4.) He can't beat Pitt in the playoffs.

It may never end. The Super Bowl may be the only thing to end it and that isn't even a guarantee.

Agree wholeheartedly, the gate of acceptance always gets pushed back on him.



LOL. I love how people speak of what 'the fans wanted/promised/said last year' as if there was some kind of contract made. It's like the twilight zone around here. It's a sliding gate. He's never going to get acceptance from certain fans... that's just how it is.

I can assure you that if Joe beats Pittsburgh in the playoffs with a decent performance, he gains 'fans.' If he beats New England the week after, with a good performance, he gains even more. If he wins the SuperBowl with a good performance, he gains just about everyone. As for how many 'bad performances' he would then be allowed before losing these fans, they are directly proportional to how far we advance in the playoffs and how well he plays in the playoffs.

The problem is... as soon as he loses in the playoffs... he's isn't a good QB anymore to a vocal # of fans and hat's crazy considering how hard it is to get in the playoffs, let alone win in the playoffs.

[The Excellector]

How many fans did he get after leading the offense on that game winning drive against the Titans in 08?

[bmorecareful]

No. He won't.

People said once he beat the Steelers with Ben he would win over fans. Once he lead them to a 4th quarter victory vs Ben in Heinz field he would win over those fans.

He will always have a bad game after doing something great and everybody will go apeshit.

This.

There are "fans" out there who JUST. DON'T. LIKE. FLACCO. I don't think they hate him personally, but they just don't like him, and there's no one single reason for it.

It doesn't matter what he does or doesn't do; the expectations and criticisms of him change year to year and game to game as needed so that he cannot achieve them. The only consistent theme is that whatever he's doing now, it's not good enough; whatever he's improved in, there's something else bad.

Whenever he meets an expectation or silences a criticms the goalposts will simply be moved and he will still not be good enough. Any positive accomplishment is forgotten by the next game. Any mitigating factors or context is dismissed as irrelevant (of course, the same scrutiny isn't extended to other players, who are given a pass if they are double teamed, etc.)

Flacco couldn't beat Pittsburgh, until he did. He couldn't beat Pittsburgh ON THE ROAD, until he did. He couldn't beat Big Ben, until he did. He couldn't beat Big Ben IN PITTSBURGH, until he did. He couldn't play well in the playoffs, until he did. He couldn't win games without any help from his supporting cast, until he did.

Why do we not extend the same scrutiny of Flacco to other players? Why don't we post threads questioning "what to do about Suggs" when he has a quiet game w/0 sacks, 0 pressures, and 0 hits on the QB? "What to do about Rice" when he averages less than 3 YPC (3 times this year,) can't hit open holes, misses 2 blitz pickups, and causes an INT? Why don't we do that, too?

[HoustonRaven]

Merged these threads since it's become more about Joe and not so much the interview anymore ....

Discuss ....

[wickedsolo]

If you actually watched these three quarterbacks play instead of looking at their numbers, you'd know this to be completely untrue.

http://fastrides.com/smileys/daaamn.jpg

[Haloti92]

The problem is... as soon as he loses in the playoffs... he's isn't a good QB anymore to a vocal # of fans.

That's crazy considering how hard it is to get in the playoffs, let alone win the playoffs.

I am not sure your first claim is true. It is dependent on his play. Leaving aside his youth/inexperience, and looking purely at his actual playoff performances, most aren't anything to write home about (yet); his playoff QB rating is 61.6. Believe me, I will take a win with Joe having pedestrian stats, over a loss where Joe looks great, every day of the week and twice on gameday, but in terms of judging Joe, the results that will utterly silence criticism are a few good performances in playoff winning games, and a SB seals the deal for sure, imo. For example, the New England playoff win earned him no credit, and it is hard to say it should have (leaving aside whether it should bring him discredit, which I don't think it should).

Lost in the 'fans promised to love him if he beat Pittsburgh' hypothesis is the fact people posit things like this as 'steps' to be taken. Progressively, i.e. added to what has already been accomplished. Not substituting the step for the last step taken taken, but rather advancing. We swept Pittsburgh, true, but we still haven't clinched the division. Why is that? Leaving aside whether Joe is actually totally responsible for team performances, and assuming it is so for the sake of argument, it is the case because we lost to some dubious teams. So the 'beating dubious teams but can't beat Ben' claim was replaced with 'beating Ben but can't beat dubious teams' and we are no better off. At least not until we win this weekend. At that point we would have progressed (by winning the division vs getting a WC), and it would be because the Pittsburgh wins had meaning (we both finish 12-4 like last year, but the sweep was the division clincher).

I guess I am saying, that very soon, Joe could very well silence a ton of this criticism, if not all of it. Very soon.

[bacchys]

Why do we not extend the same scrutiny of Flacco to other players? Why don't we post threads questioning "what to do about Suggs" when he has a quiet game w/0 sacks, 0 pressures, and 0 hits on the QB? "What to do about Rice" when he averages less than 3 YPC (3 times this year,) can't hit open holes, misses 2 blitz pickups, and causes an INT? Why don't we do that, too?

Because those things- the lack of sacks, missed blitz pickups, etc.- are all Flacco's fault...

[alien bird]

Vinnie said Flacco has had 30 drops - not sure how that ranks in the league.

One of our WRs (Torrey??) is tied for 9th in the league in drops.

The Ravens are tied for 5th in the league in drops.

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/tmleaders.asp?type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=232

Anquan Boldin is tied for 9th (7 drops); Ray Rice is in that pack as well (7 drops). However, most of the guys on the list get a lot of throws, so just looking at the number of drops doesn't tell the story. That being said, if one wants to make the argument that Flacco would have better stats if his receivers didn't drop the ball, they can. Just remember that such an argument can be made for any QB in the league. Nobody catches everything thrown to them.

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?range=nfl&type=receiving&rank=232

[festivus]

Flacco couldn't beat Pittsburgh, until he did. He couldn't beat Pittsburgh ON THE ROAD, until he did. He couldn't beat Big Ben, until he did. He couldn't beat Big Ben IN PITTSBURGH, until he did. He couldn't play well in the playoffs, until he did. He couldn't win games without any help from his supporting cast, until he did.

Yup. I'm not going to say he's great, but I will say he's in a lose/lose situation here. If he plays poorly, he sucks, if he plays well, he's inconsistent.

It's too bad.

I think he deserves a good contract and I hope he stays in Baltimore a long time. But if for whatever reason he leaves Baltimore at the end of next year, I hope he signs somewhere where the fans are happy to have him even though he's not Aaron Rogers.

[DarienA]

I am not sure your first claim is true. It is dependent on his play. Leaving aside his youth/inexperience, and looking purely at his actual playoff performances, most aren't anything to write home about (yet); his playoff QB rating is 61.6. Believe me, I will take a win with Joe having pedestrian stats, over a loss where Joe looks great, every day of the week and twice on gameday, but in terms of judging Joe, the results that will utterly silence criticism are a few good performances in playoff winning games, and a SB seals the deal for sure, imo. For example, the New England playoff win earned him no credit, and it is hard to say it should have (leaving aside whether it should bring him discredit, which I don't think it should).

Lost in the 'fans promised to love him if he beat Pittsburgh' hypothesis is the fact people posit things like this as 'steps' to be taken. Progressively, i.e. added to what has already been accomplished. Not substituting the step for the last step taken taken, but rather advancing. We swept Pittsburgh, true, but we still haven't clinched the division. Why is that? Leaving aside whether Joe is actually totally responsible for team performances, and assuming it is so for the sake of argument, it is the case because we lost to some dubious teams. So the 'beating dubious teams but can't beat Ben' claim was replaced with 'beating Ben but can't beat dubious teams' and we are no better off. At least not until we win this weekend. At that point we would have progressed (by winning the division vs getting a WC), and it would be because the Pittsburgh wins had meaning (we both finish 12-4 like last year, but the sweep was the division clincher).

I guess I am saying, that very soon, Joe could very well silence a ton of this criticism, if not all of it. Very soon.

The problem with the above IMO is that you put those losses on Joe... when those losses need to be equality spread upon the defense, crappy play calling, poor Oline protection, as well as in some instances mistakes by Joe.

Look the guy isn't my #1 QB but he's done well, and I just don't see how you can reference the "hate" he experiences these days as anything else but that sliding gate of he'll prove it to me when he does this... no now he'll prove it to me when he does this...

The QB accepts the lionshare of the wins and losses regardless of how much of it is directly and truly his fault... that will always be unfair.

[Haloti92]

The problem with the above IMO is that you put those losses on Joe... when those losses need to be equality spread upon the defense, crappy play calling, poor Oline protection, as well as in some instances mistakes by Joe.

Look the guy isn't my #1 QB but he's done well, and I just don't see how you can reference the "hate" he experiences these days as anything else but that sliding gate of he'll prove it to me when he does this... no now he'll prove it to me when he does this...

The QB accepts the lionshare of the wins and losses regardless of how much of it is directly and truly his fault... that will always be unfair.

I am not putting the losses on Joe except for the sake of argument. I am responding to a claim "Joe beats Pittsburgh for fans, fans break promise" etc. That argument, the one I am responding to, is predicated on wins and losses being Joe's. But, if you want to claim that Joe was actually responsible for the wins against Pittsburgh more than he was responsible for the losses, that is a separate and fair argument, but not the one I was engaged in. And in some ways (not totally or clearly) it is belied by the step backwards statistically (for the season), which has also been included in some of the "fans promised to love Joe if he X,Y,Z" argument.

In any event, like I said, the coming weeks will provide a lot of weight to the scales of this argument, imo. I am not sure which side the weight will be applied to or whether it will be evenly and inconclusively applied to both sides (playoff loss where Joe plays well, or playoff wins where Joe plays poorly, etc), but we will know soon enough.

[Uli2001]

Matt Ryan was having a completely "average" year along with Flacco until the Falcons had to rely on the pass more. It is quite well known that Michael "The Burner" Turner wears out at the end of the year because they burn him out in the beginning of the season. In the last 5 games Turner hasn't gone over 76 yards. The Falcons lead the league with 1 yard run plays as a result of Turner wearing down (http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/39569/77/football-daily-dose). In the beginning of the season running Turner was their offensive game plan and Ryan's numbers were in line with Joe's. Unlike Turner wearing down in Atlanta, Ray Rice has gone for 200 and 100 yards in the last 5 games, and we can still rely on him to carry a game.

First 10 games:
Ryan 2625 262.5/game 15TDs 10 INTs, 360 attempts, 36/game
Flacco: 2576 yards 257.6/game 12 TDs 8 INTs, 388 attempts, 38.8/game

Turner: 888 yards 88.8/game 9 TDs
Rice: 559 yards, 55.9/game 8 TDs

Last 5 games:
Ryan 1446 289/game 12TDs 2INTs, 197 attempts, 39.4/game
Flacco: 904 yards 180.8/game 7TDs, 4INTs, 135 attempts, 27/game

Turner: 280 yards, 56/game 1 TDs
Rice: 510 yards, 102/game 2 TDs

Ryan: increased by 17 yards/game in the last 5 games compared to first 10 games as a result of Turner averaging 32 less yards/game during the same time frame. ~4 MORE attempts/game.

Flacco: decreased by 77 yards/game in the last 5 games compared to first 10 games as a result of Rice averaging 46 more yards/game during the same time frame. ~12 LESS attempts/game.


The Falcons have had to compensate for an ineffective run game via passing more, whereas the Ravens have been able to rely on their effective run game to win games without having to pass as much. We are talking about a swing of 16 pass attempts between the declining attempts of Flacco to the rising attempts of Ryan. In the last 5 games Ryan has averaged ~13 more attempts/game and subsequently over 100 more yards passing/game. This is all shown in the "hard cold numbers" you like to speak of. The first 10 games Ryan and Flacco were very close, as usual in their careers. The last 5 games the Falcons run game has fallen off a cliff, and they've had to pass more, whereas the Ravens run game has improved and they've been able to pass less. All proven by the "hard cold numbers". Please feel free to provide your own counter analysis with "hard cold numbers".

That's an interesting analysis. Would you care to run completion percentage as well? Did you leave that out on purpose?

I want Flacco to succeed as much as the next person. I would like for him to be better than Ryan for sure. But I am just pointing out that this year, the numbers aren't there. Okay, so they were in the first 10 games (and Ryan was having a bad year to that point, or so I hear). What has happened over the last five? That's nearly 1/3 of a season. You can't just throw it out. Is Flacco hurt? Is the contract negotiations affecting him? Has Cameron lost faith in him? Not the kind of questions you would like to be asking 10 days before postseason is to start.

[bt12483]

That's an interesting analysis. Would you care to run completion percentage as well? Did you leave that out on purpose? His completion % is down. We take more shots downfield and he had 1 returning starting player (Boldin) in the WR/TE spot.

Ryan still had Roddy and Tony, his two favorite targets, and got a top 10 player (WR) from the draft.


I want Flacco to succeed as much as the next person. I would like for him to be better than Ryan for sure. But I am just pointing out that this year, the numbers aren't there. His completion % is down. His TDs are down. His INTs are the same. He could set a new personal best for yards by throwing for more than 143 yards next game. His sacks are down. His fumbles are up.

IMO he is playing better this year regardless of what the stats say.

And how many big pass interference plays have we gotten this year? More than last year. They don't show up as yards in the stat column, but are just as good as a completion. If I recall Ray Rice had about 3 ~one yard TDs in the Arizona game set up by either a long pass or a pass interference call. Those could easily be 3TDs in Joe's stat column. He ended the day with 0 TDs, but the TDs were setup by his passing, and merely came up a yard short.


Okay, so they were in the first 10 games (and Ryan was having a bad year to that point, or so I hear). What has happened over the last five? That's nearly 1/3 of a season. You can't just throw it out. No one is throwing it out. What happened? I already explained what happened. We started leaning on Ray Rice more, whereas Atlanta leaned less on Turner. The stats show this.

Why would Flacco have been asked to continually pass in a game where Ray Rice ran for 200+ yards? That is basically a day off for Flacco.

In a game where rain and wind are an issue? Atlanta doesn't have to worry much about field conditions playing in a dome do they
?


Is Flacco hurt? Is the contract negotiations affecting him? Has Cameron lost faith in him? Not the kind of questions you would like to be asking 10 days before postseason is to start.

1) He isn't hurt. No indication whatsoever of that.
2) Contract talks were abandoned when the season started.
3) Cam is more at risk of losing his job than Joe is.

I'm not asking those questions, because I don't seen any of them being remotely representative of the reality of the QB or the team.
Only overly pessimistic fans seem to ask those types of questions. You were the same way over at the Sun boards no?

[4everyman]

That's an interesting analysis. Would you care to run completion percentage as well? Did you leave that out on purpose?

I want Flacco to succeed as much as the next person. I would like for him to be better than Ryan for sure. But I am just pointing out that this year, the numbers aren't there. Okay, so they were in the first 10 games (and Ryan was having a bad year to that point, or so I hear). What has happened over the last five? That's nearly 1/3 of a season. You can't just throw it out. Is Flacco hurt? Is the contract negotiations affecting him? Has Cameron lost faith in him? Not the kind of questions you would like to be asking 10 days before postseason is to start.

Average ranking of defenses that Flacco has faced - 10
Average ranking of defenses that Ryan has faced - 20

[Mista T]

I think he deserves a good contract and I hope he stays in Baltimore a long time. But if for whatever reason he leaves Baltimore at the end of next year, I hope he signs somewhere where the fans are happy to have him even though he's not Aaron Rogers.

Not a chance that Flacco leaves for greener pastures. After more than a decade of QB ineptitude, the Ravens finally have a franchise QB and will pay him to stay.

[festivus]

Not a chance that Flacco leaves for greener pastures. After more than a decade of QB ineptitude, the Ravens finally have a franchise QB and will pay him to stay.

Oh, I agree. I don't think our FO is that stupid. I only know so many ways to say "Hey, people, he's not Aaron Rogers but he's demonstrably good enough to play on winning teams, so stop talking about him like he's Kyle Boller."

I just can't put that in every post, T, so I tried to find another way to say the same thing.

[ravensnhokies]

The Ravens organization understands the value of Joe in their offense they run here (its not the GB/NO/Atlanta/Patriots offensive scheme so give it up if you are expecting big numbers...), so I'd be willing to bet a grand that he aint leaving. And he'll get good money too... Maybe slightly less than Ryan but close.

And why are we comparing Joe to Matt... Matt was the freaking third pick in the draft. Joe was 18th... Matt should be a lot better at this point in his career than Joe. That Joe is in the same ballpark as Matt now is pretty damn good, and I'd say a lot better return on investment.