Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

Both the Chargers and the Ravens run the Ayr Coryell offense, and both offenses have been inconsistent over the years (the Chargers used to be a power house on offense when they had Tomlinson, and Vincent Jackson). After both offenses failed to get it going on Sunday for most of the game, and further more, the fact that the Ravens started lighting the Chargers up in the 4th quarter and OT when they went into a short timed passing game out of the spread offense, says to me that the whole philosophy of this offense needs to change (stating the obvious I know, but it needs to be said). That almost certainly means a change in OC. If we go on to win the SB, I think that Ozzie will probably re sign Cam for another 5 years of mediocrity and inconsistency on offnese, and we may never see Joe Flacco hit his ceiling.

I know that many people on this board are big supporters of Norv Turner as an OC, and want him to come to Baltimore when he gets fired as the HC of the Chargers, but why? What have the Chargers done that sticks out to you in recent years? Philip Rivers was once a top 5 QB, and is now rumored to be traded in 2013, and has turned the ball over at will this year.

Joe Flacco and this offense have been wildly inconsistent over the years, and have mostly been bailed out by a great defense or Ray Rice over the years, which has resulted in so many wins. Flacco has actually bailed us out of games when he calls his own shots in the spread/shotgun offense, and almost got us to the SB by coming out of the AC offense vs the Patriots in the AFCCG.

Cam Cameron is bad and doesn't make sense at the best of times, but maybe any OC who believes in the AC wouldn't be a good fit for any team in todays NFL. The Lions run a hybrid AC, and do a pretty good job of it, but again, they aren't a winning team, and have been inconsistent as hell on offense regardless of the mass numbers they put. They have Calvin Johnson to throw to with Matthew Stafford throwing him the ball in a domed stadium. That offense never works in cold weather stadiums.

The ONLY time the AC can work is when you have both a stud back (we do in Ray Rice), and a big, fast, and abnormal human being at WR like Calvin Johnson (we don't have one, even though Torrey is really promising, and Boldin being a better fit for WCO). Cap reasons, and the fact that we draft so low all the time makes it impossible for us to ever land a Calvin Johnson in the draft. The Chargers looked better when they had Vincent Jackson and Tomlinson at his best, and even then, they didn't get to the SB.

I don't think this team is necessarily built for a WCO, but I am certainly tired of seeing the same old inconsistent AC offense. What we need to do is improve the run game, we need some help on the OL, and we need more consistent play in the passing game to open up the run game, because most of the time, teams are just taking Rice out of the equation. We need a guy like Antonio Brown to help out in our passing game, someone who can run awesome routes and one of those quick footed atheletes who can move the chains, that would go perfectly along with Torrey Smith, Boldin and Pitta. I really like Tavon Austin out of West Virginia, but I like Stedmain Baily in the 3rd round more.

What I'd really like is more of the no huddle that we run at home, but some how find a way to run it on the road too, like the Patriots do. But we also need to have that power run scheme to back us up if shit goes wrong in the no huddle, because I'm not sure if our current Oline is up to the task of physically dominating other Dlines in the trenches, that the 49ers can do.

This is just a boring day at work for me, so I decided to post this, what do you guys think? Please note this is not a thread to start arguing about whether or not Flacco is elite, average, or terrible, or how much of a terrible OC Cam is. This thread is intended to identify what the best offensive philosophy is for us going forward, and what personnel changes need to be made on offense in order to progress as a top flight offense that we see at the bank.

I hate the AC. Go 1 back K-Gun like Manning or WC if you want to hang onto Leach. But AC is for dinosaurs.

I still beg to differ on the AC. CAM runs a combination of that such as the long bomb to Torrey and the West Coast offense such as the short pass to Rice cutting across the middle which he turned into a 29 yd gain. The D had to respect Torrey so much, it left the middle open
for Joe to throw underneath.

WCO goes horizontally while AC goes vertically.
Ravens use both systems.

That big come from behind win vs Arizona the last time we played them was mostly WCO with short to medium passes to Pitta across the middle.

I'd also like to see more no huddles. Joe does well with it and it throws the D off but CAM goes away from what's working too much.

Just my humble freaking opinion.

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Originally Posted by Captain Silver

I hate the AC. Go 1 back K-Gun like Manning or WC if you want to hang onto Leach. But AC is for dinosaurs.

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I'm not sure if the WC is a good fit for Flacco though, he isn't a quick release type QB that is best making little dinky throws all game. He's best used taking shots down field or throwing strikes, the AC offense allows him to do those things, the problem is, it's such a dated offensive scheme.

I guess some kind of hybrid like what GB run would be a good fit.

Fuck it, I'm starting to become a believer in the WCO!!!

Imagine using Torrey Smith on short passes, he can run up the field like Victor Cruz, and like that play he made vs the Chargers. Rice would be an awesome fit for the WCO too as well as Boldin, Pitta, and even Doss.

You can run any offense you want, but if the respective O-lines give up 5 and 6 sacks, the unit will struggle. Add to that a a few false starts and the efficiency goes down even further. I've just come to the belief that the 5 big mollies up front are the biggest determinant in a successful offense. If you can't block a defense consistently, you can't do anything on offense.

San Diego and Norv Turner have just had their O-line decay in the last few years, starting 3 backups Sunday. Similarly, the Ravens have been in big transition up front the last 2 years, but really haven't been elite up front since 2009.

It's not all the scheme, and it's not all the talent of the players you have, but I'd have to say it's mostly about the players.

Good point on the o-line decay. TV showed the Packer's line getting
Aaron Rogers killed. Same thing is happening to them. Our line
looked a lot better than GBs but it's happening all over with the o-lines.

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Originally Posted by leachisabeast

I'm not sure if the WC is a good fit for Flacco though, he isn't a quick release type QB that is best making little dinky throws all game. He's best used taking shots down field or throwing strikes, the AC offense allows him to do those things, the problem is, it's such a dated offensive scheme.

I guess some kind of hybrid like what GB run would be a good fit.

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Flacco looks good when he's in the no huddle getting the ball out as soon as possible (especially when they work the middle of the field).

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Originally Posted by LC_Ravens_87

You can run any offense you want, but if the respective O-lines give up 5 and 6 sacks, the unit will struggle. Add to that a a few false starts and the efficiency goes down even further. I've just come to the belief that the 5 big mollies up front are the biggest determinant in a successful offense. If you can't block a defense consistently, you can't do anything on offense.

San Diego and Norv Turner have just had their O-line decay in the last few years, starting 3 backups Sunday. Similarly, the Ravens have been in big transition up front the last 2 years, but really haven't been elite up front since 2009.

It's not all the scheme, and it's not all the talent of the players you have, but I'd have to say it's mostly about the players.

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This. Though play-calling is also a huge factor.

Neither the Ravens nor the Chargers have the pass protection (O-Line, Tight Ends and Running Backs) for the Air Coryell.

Because overall they're both just average with their pass protection, though with the Ravens it's more a lack of consistency. Either way though, average or inconsistent pass protection isn't good enough for the AC.

We need a legit LT IMO, and Oher needs to play RT. That alone will help this offense. Still not sold at all on the AC though.

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Originally Posted by PerpetuallyBored74

This. Though play-calling is also a huge factor.

Neither the Ravens nor the Chargers have the pass protection (O-Line, Tight Ends and Running Backs) for the Air Coryell.

Because overall they're both just average with their pass protection, though with the Ravens it's more a lack of consistency. Either way though, average or inconsistent pass protection isn't good enough for the AC.

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Yeah and look how much better they look when we run the no huddle with quicker timed passes. The WCO would make this unit look much better than it is.

I don't think we can go strictly WCO or AC, it has to be a combination of the two just based on Joe's strength's and the type of personnel we have.

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Originally Posted by leachisabeast

Imagine using Torrey Smith on short passes,.

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This was the first game I can remember Torrey running not only 1 but 2 crossers and Joe hitting him on both of them. Not only that, but Smith was lined up in the slot both times. It's a different wrinkle and with a guy like Jacoby Jones out there as well, one that I hope to see again.

Torrey is clearly growing as a route runner, and I don't know if it's so much Cam won't call these types of plays, it's just that they weren't likely to work with Torrey still in the learning process as an NFL WR.

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Originally Posted by LC_Ravens_87

Torrey is clearly growing as a route runner, and I don't know if it's so much Cam won't call these types of plays, it's just that they weren't likely to work with Torrey still in the learning process as an NFL WR.

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And what's Cam's excuse for not letting Boldin run those types of plays more often?

When he was in Arizona, running those type of plays again and again is what made Boldin a perrennial Pro Bowler, even on Cardinals teams that were otherwise awful before Wisenhunt/Warner.

if the Air Coryell was the best option than more than 2-3 teams would be using it, but they arent. Tells you everything you need to know in a copycat league.

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Originally Posted by leachisabeast

I know that many people on this board are big supporters of Norv Turner as an OC, and want him to come to Baltimore when he gets fired as the HC of the Chargers, but why? What have the Chargers done that sticks out to you in recent years? Philip Rivers was once a top 5 QB, and is now rumored to be traded in 2013, and has turned the ball over at will this year.

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It has nothing to do with his stint as HC and everything to do with his time as OC.

Some coaches are better coordinators than they are as head coaches. Norv's offenses when he was OC were either at or close to the top of almost ever measurable out there.

Dick LeBeau is the perfect example of this phenomenon. He's arguable the best DC in the last 50 years and quite possibly the best DC in the history of the NFL. But his two years as the Bungals HC? Yuck! Even his defenses on those teams sucked.

When focused on their craft, coaches like Norv and LeBeau are masters.

And I dont know where some have this notion that the AC offense is short passing. It's the opposite. The AC offense, when run correctly, forces the defense to defend the whole field as opposed to situational defense. At any moment, there could be a pass deep, over the middle or short. The deep receiver (or two, ideally) is the hallmark of the AC offense.

hate the croyell, I don't want Norv turner here or Cam here, the shit needs to go, I believe Flacco would be very successful in west coast spread gun offense, much like the falcons, greenbay, lions and to some extent denver. Kyle Orton looked good for bout 8 games a couple seasons ago running that offense and was in some MVP talks for bout 6 weeks. Time to lay that old shit to rest and get with the modern day NFL.

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Originally Posted by AirFlacco

I still beg to differ on the AC. CAM runs a combination of that such as the long bomb to Torrey and the West Coast offense such as the short pass to Rice cutting across the middle which he turned into a 29 yd gain. The D had to respect Torrey so much, it left the middle open
for Joe to throw underneath.

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Eh...it was a dumpoff (Rice wasn't cutting anywhere...he was just drifting slowly out of the backfield and it was open because The Chargers were playing 15 yards off and it wasn't just Torrey that went deep...all 4 of our guys went deep (Jacoby, Q and Pitta)...it was basically the same play we run 3-4 times a game...the dreaded "all go" (BTW, it's a play that Bill Walsh ran as well). The result of that play really had nothing to do with design, it had all to do with the way the Chargers sucked at tackling and Rice's effort.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LC_Ravens_87

You can run any offense you want, but if the respective O-lines give up 5 and 6 sacks, the unit will struggle. Add to that a a few false starts and the efficiency goes down even further. I've just come to the belief that the 5 big mollies up front are the biggest determinant in a successful offense. If you can't block a defense consistently, you can't do anything on offense.

San Diego and Norv Turner have just had their O-line decay in the last few years, starting 3 backups Sunday. Similarly, the Ravens have been in big transition up front the last 2 years, but really haven't been elite up front since 2009.

It's not all the scheme, and it's not all the talent of the players you have, but I'd have to say it's mostly about the players.

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I like the WCO because it stresses quick decisions and throws...which minimize the OL play. Short, 3 step drops, taking the short passes and having an accurate QB who can get the ball to guys in position to get YAC.

These LONG, 7 step play action passes take so freaking long to develop...most teams don't run that long play action action for that very reason...it gives defensive players too much time to get to the QB. Those plays were staples of teams like the Raiders and Chargers in the 70-s and early 80's...there is a reason why nobody does that anymore.

I remember a quote from Rex this offseason saying that it's so hard to get to QB's these days unless you have a completely free rusher because QB's are getting rid of the ball so quick now days. We need to get with the program and get the ball out of Joe's hands quick.

Unfortunately, Cam (and Harbaugh has bought into this) are ALL about "big chunk" plays, instead of ball possession and consistent positive yards.

Read the references to GB, and have to comment that with the NFL parity, it seems that you can build an O or build a D.
GB's D wasn't good last year, so they drafted D DE(Perry), DT(Worthy), CB(Hayward), DT(Daniels), S(McMillian), LB(Manning), and then in round 7 Andrew Datka OT Florida State.

And now we are seeing Rogers getting hammered.

Yep we need a legit LT (Oher to RT), but that ain't going to happen drafting 32nd
We also need a MLB or a Boulware.

We have the skill pieces (who doesn't need a Megatron?) and I really have no major complaints about the playbook.
Have we run a true draw anytime recently?

I'm glad we are not AC, I like components of it but I also love time of possession to rest the D and keep their pressure sharp.

Agree also that the component of WCO that I see (way too often) is the sideline out, which seems like something a D is willing to be looser defending in order to tighten something else. We need to flip the frequency of the crossers with the frequency of the sideline outs.

My complaints with Cam is not that he isn't good.
It is that he is slow to adapt to a D..... it seems like a mack truck going downhill with poor brakes.... you know what is going on, just gonna take a good while to do something about it.

The AC part of our hybrid O requires super miracle efforts against Tampa 2
The WCO requires effective crossers... and I think I see screens called when crossings are needed, and execution blamed.

Bottom line is we need to figure how to maximize the pieces we have, and we have good pieces, and not bring in someone who is going to eat draft choices with personell changes.... we have more than enough attrition replacement to deal with on both sides of the ball.

And a final non-connected thought is that Bynes gets cut for Ray.

Besides AC and West Coast, what other systems are there? Is Run and Shoot a system or part of the above mentioned? What does Caldwell run?