It is embarrassing when people attempt to equate the gay rights "struggle" with the Civil Rights struggle. It is hard to take such people seriously, to be honest.
What you, and others, are doing is ignoring an important part of the equation. Let's take the phrase, "He was bullied because..." You would finish that statement, "He was bullied because he was gay." I would finish the statement, "He was bullied because the bully is an asshole." In your statement gay can be replaced with anything humans do or are. They're white, black, nerds, jocks, fat, skinny, etc... My statement will always stay the same, and will always be true.
Maybe it's just different down here, and by that I mean it is very different down here. One of my friends is a black lesbian. She told me that when she lived up north, she dealt with discrimination fairly often. Since she's moved down here, she hasn't dealt with it once. Maybe it's because southerners tend to be raised more respectful, or because we're generally laid back about things until it affects our loved ones. Who knows, but it's nice to see we're not the bigoted part of the country anymore.
EDIT: I forgot about this. I asked one of my buddies tonight how a NFL player coming out would affect his life. His response was, "Hell yeah. I need a sugar daddy."
You may have a point there darb, but I do see a lot of people who, on the surface, act like very kind, caring people, but underneath, have some deep seeded homophobia. We were having dinner with my in-laws (I knew this about them prior), but in telling a story, she mentioned that a friend of hers made comments that alluded to the friend having lesbian/bisexual tendencies and followed it up with "if I had known that, probably wouldn't have stayed with her that weekend last year". My wife commented that most gay people usually know the boundaries and won't try to do anything with someone they know isn't interested, much like the people who are not sexual predators among straight people, and my MIL's response was that most lesbians she's known seemed "out to get her" and remembered one putting a hand on her knee and how she wanted to smack it away. And then continued talking about closeted lesbians and how they act in her mind...
Long story short...my in-laws and I don't get along due to the Redskins/Ravens stuff, but other than that, they are pretty caring people on the surface. Hell, even with the Redskins/Ravens thing, they've given me most of my Ravens stuff in my collection. But even though they don't appear to be assholes, they do have some questionable thoughts about LGBT people. I think it's kind've a combination of both...I think even still in this country, there is a bit of racism present towards African-Americans. Not as much as in the 1950s/1960s, but it remains in some families due to upbringing. Some parents who are still discriminatory are going to raise their kids discriminatory. I saw it in my grandparents. They weren't very open about it, but now and again, it came out. And they raised my aunt the same way. My mother was a little more "liberal" than they were (and also didn't live with them all her life like my aunt did), so I think I escaped that pattern a bit, but I do believe to an extent, discrimination has to be "bred out" of the generation. In that, with future generations and future established tolerance in society, kids will start questioning people who ARE discriminatory more and more.
With homosexuality in NFL players...it comes down to one thing for me. Would NFL locker rooms accept a gay player without any resentment, public or private. And that part there, public or private, is truly the 64000 dollar question. A lot of players publically want to appear like they are okay with it, so if someone asked them in an interview, would you be okay with this?, they'd answer yeah, sure! But just like my in-laws (Who constantly comment that people coming out are okay and "there's nothing wrong with that"), I think if they were presented with a REAL case of someone close to them ending up being gay, it puts them in a new situation and they may not act the same way.
I think publically, a lot of NFL players will say they would be okay with it. But I think that deep seeded, below the surface fear is still there. That is why I think these players may choose to make it a big deal to come out. They want fraternity, where there may not be the same fraternity in their own clubhouse.
Scally - I think what you just said could be replaced with anything darb posted, not just being gay.
Not everybody is going to like everything about everybody else, but as long as they keep it to themselves or "below the surface" that's about as good as this world is gonna get.
Just because the gay community hasn't experienced the volume of violence and discrimination as other groups in the past, doesn't make the comparison any less accurate.
At the root of both is hatred and discrimination trying to be overcome.
Here's a sick fact for people minimizing the impact of anti gay attitudes that are strongly prevalent in this country (especially in the Bible Belt, despite darb's unawareness of it).
The Suicide Prevention Resource Center estimated that between 30 and 40% of LGBT youth, depending on age and sex groups, have attempted suicide.
Between 30 and 40 fucking percent.
Further, studies have indicated that suicide, drug abuse, and depression all show statistical upticks in areas that pass laws against the rights of homosexuals such as Constitutional Amendments banning gay marriage.
Imagine the kind of pressure that these kids are under to drive numbers like that.
You're debunking a claim I didn't make. I didn't claim that 1/3rd of teen suicide victims were gay, I said that 30-40% of teens who are gay will attempt suicide.
Here's the study, please actually read it before skimming something and arguing against a point that no one has made. If you're going to call me wrong, I'd appreciate it if you at least took the time to understand what I was claiming before you did it. The study I'm quoting actually addresses the myth your link debunks and agrees with you that it is an inaccurate statistic.
I gave you one example. And the reasons contained in the link I gave apply universally to almost all the studies on this subject. In fact, the link I provided had this to say about your very claim:
I can give you others, but you really should read your own link. It lists the results of many similarly-flawed or unscientific studies, and then admits the flaws and limitations of any conclusions. It also provides the compelling counterpoints that address the limitations.Quote:
"The net effect is that conclusions about suicide risk among sexual-minority youths are based not on same-sex attractions but on self-identification [and] researchers who rely solely on gay-identified youths might be omitting significant, more diverse and representative populations of youths with same-sex attractions." The study concluded that "the assertion that sexual-minority youths as a class of individuals are at increased risk for suicide is not warranted."
I would quote from your source, but it would be easier if you read this section:
Limitations of the Data on Suicide Attempts Among LGB Youth
And these rates, even if in the ballpark (which isn't a given), are roughly 2 times higher than the "norm". Such is the ratio in studies of overweight youth, physically unattractive youth, youth on drugs, youth that have spent any amount of time being homeless, etc. In other words, the linkage to some kind of totally unique level of persecution doesn't exist in any of the studies.
Sorry, you're barking up the wrong tree on this one. I really don't get how that relates to what I said. I said nothing, absolutely nothing about marriage or what the laws are about marriage or partnerships (as a matter of fact I think you and I agree on that if memory serves me correctly).
Let's play a little game I like to call "liar or ignorant". I'm going to take your "facts" and we'll decide if you're a liar, or just ignorant.
-You say that anti-gay attitudes are virulent, particularly in the Bible Belt. Since you've stated this opinion as fact, you're going to have to prove it, or you're a liar.
-You say that between 30 and 40 percent of gay teens have attempted suicide. Haloti destroyed this one, so we'll go with ignorant.
-You say that studies have shown an uptick in suicides in places that pass anti-marriage laws. Show them to us, or you're a liar.
ASB, you're young and full of righteous indignation because of how some folks are treated. That's admirable. It's also makes you incredibly short sighted. There are two sides to every argument and as you grow older, you'll develop the ability to see another person's point of view. Yeah, gay folks are targeted because they're different. Same goes for overweight kids, smart kids, dumb kids, etc... It's a sad fact of humanity that we don't like things that are different.
But while it's true that gay folks shouldn't be treated like crap because of they're gay, they shouldn't expect special treatment either.
My point was that some gay folks do demand special treatment, and when people do that it pisses folks off, even those that have no particular dislike for the gay community. No, I'm not talking about the marriage issue.
The example I was thinking of when I said special treatment is a law proposed in California (of course) that says gay couples who have had sex for a year and can't get pregnant are to be covered by their insurance for infertility treatments. That means that if a lesbian couple has sex together without becoming pregnant for one year, then they can claim infertility and insurance will have to pay for artificial insemination. That isn't the gay community being discriminated against. That's simple biology.
There are other, incredibly stupid, laws in California. School districts are allowed to take a student off campus for counseling without parental permission, if that student identifies themselves as gay. Unless it's an emergency, no school officials should take a student off campus.
The major problem here is, if I say I'm against gay couples getting infertility treatments, then I'll be accused of hating gays. If I don't want kids taken off campus without parental permission, then I'm insensitive.
The entitlement mentality is hardly confined to any one group, gays included.
Every segment of society has a small contingent with their hand out or with a "look at me" attitude.
It's the small segment of a population that pisses people off. The preacher from Kentucky and Kirk Cameron make it seem like all Christians hate gays. That's simply not true. Even the majority of Christians don't hate gays. Spammy is gonna say something about the marriage issue, so I'll go ahead and respond. There are gay people who don't believe in same sex marriage.
going back to why a gay player has to have a press conference rather just live their life and not let it become a story... insert kerry rhodes (no pun intended).
Apparently he was on vacation and had some photos taken with another guy and immediately speculation was he was gay and the media ran with it. Hes since said he supports gay players coming out but is not one himself. This is the problem with saying things are equal and they should just live and let it be. even if youre not gay the media is going to make it something, let alone if you actually are.