Is It Time To Trade For major Tarde OL Player

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Originally Posted by Raineman

A lot has been said about our future O-lineman, which begs the question....Is Billick, being under the gun, mortgaging our future because of a must win mentality?

The O-line will be the last and final piece that Billick has not handled properly and, in so doing, will expose him for what he really is. Unfortunately at the expense of our future.

Keep in mind that I am not trying to play "negative Nelly" here. The "buck" has to start and end somewhere. Can you suggest another courtyard?

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Well, how about the GM - the one who actually acquires the talent (or non-talents) on the OL? :confused:

And, how is Billick mortgaging our future? Just because he isn't playing young guys right now? Umm, most of those guys who aren't playing - Terry, Brown, Chester - will be here for at least 3 more years, so regardless of what happens this year, they are still the future. The bottom line is that if Billick, and the coaching staff, thought they could help now, they would play them - after all, having the best players playing gives the team its best chance to win, which would be Billick's best chance of keeping his job, right? :eek:

Since Billick is not the GM I would say know. Ozzie Newsome has ignored the line for years. In case people forget, the line sucked with Mitchell and Rabach and every other bargain rate scrub Ozzie has brought in the last 8 years.
How long did he ignore the wr adn qb position?

Another courtyard has been suggested, and I never made Oz or Steve B. exempt in this either. They have given the players to BB. He is the one that chooses how to use them. If he is wrong, it is on him. But he chooses to be wrong (if that is the case) at the expense of our future by not getting valuable playing time and him actually expecting a different result with the same tools.

Once again BRavor- Nobody is exempt here. But someone has to take on the oneness, and Brian just seems to be the same "unscolded" self that he is. Excuse the analogy, but he could fast become the "T.O. of coaches" by giving us the same product with a different cover.

There was no secret that the O-line was the first and foremost priority that needed to be addressed this offseason. This was the consensus around most of the football genre. Yet it remains the most stagnant part of our team. Yes, it has been addressed, but with players that all need development (even in their second year) and not ones that can make an immediate impact. Draft was not an option. It was spent on D-line (which I agree was needed-as far as Ray was concerned) and our inability to acquire impacting free agents where needed the most (Yes, I went there) was exposed.

As Forrest Gump said, Thats all I have to say about that.

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Originally Posted by ravensfan86

I have to say that Ozzie's track record for the draft is legandary. To draft two HOF players in the same draft, in the same round is incredible. I like the way Ozzie operates and I respect him. That being said, they spent countless hours eveluating the season last year before they made any decisions. The group (Biscotti, Ozzie, Eric, Brian) came to a concensus that we could win with this offensive line. It's hard to imagine that Ozzie would lay his name on the line for that group. Other then JO, they are fairly plain and ordinary.

It is obvious that if the Ravens cannot run the ball effectively on the road they become very predictable and as it seems quite easy to defend. McNair will not last 5 games in if the oline plays as they did in Minn. Also the oline coach and Billick should be teaching them how to fire off the ball in unison without hearing the snap count and working as one. I was starting to trust Foerster somewhat after the iggles game. Now I am again not very confident in his coaching ability. This is the NFL. Games on the road in a hostile environment are pretty common. Its coaching and talent level.

If the FO and Billick were content with this group then we should see coaching make up for lack of talent to a degree. I haven't seen it.

We are not a good football team on the road. Especially falling behind in the score. We are not built to become pass happy and protect the QB. I still have trouble believing Ozzie would lay his reputation on this offensive line. It is out there for all to see.

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I don't get what you mean about Ozzie. It's his job to build the team and if he thought the O-line wasn't up to snuff, it's his job to fix it. He's the GM and oversees the talent, not the coaching staff. I totally agree with AZRaven, this mess falls directly at the feet of Ozzie if it doesn't work out.

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Originally Posted by B-more Ravor

Well, how about the GM - the one who actually acquires the talent (or non-talents) on the OL? :confused:

And, how is Billick mortgaging our future? Just because he isn't playing young guys right now? Umm, most of those guys who aren't playing - Terry, Brown, Chester - will be here for at least 3 more years, so regardless of what happens this year, they are still the future. The bottom line is that if Billick, and the coaching staff, thought they could help now, they would play them - after all, having the best players playing gives the team its best chance to win, which would be Billick's best chance of keeping his job, right? :eek:

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Bingo, great post Ravor. I don't believe for one second that the coaching staff is not playing the best players. Billick knows that he's on the hot seat, that loyalty stuff is pure BS, the guy wants to win.

Keep an eye on this situation: (hear that OZZIE!!)


http://www.twincities.com/mld/twinci...a/15383722.htm

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Originally Posted by Raineman

Another courtyard has been suggested, and I never made Oz or Steve B. exempt in this either. They have given the players to BB. He is the one that chooses how to use them. If he is wrong, it is on him. But he chooses to be wrong (if that is the case) at the expense of our future by not getting valuable playing time and him actually expecting a different result with the same tools.v

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Again, he can only play the players that he has been given. If he is choosing not to play some of the young linemen than it is because he and the coaching staff (with input from the FO as well, I sure) feel that the gusy they are playing give the team the best chance to win. Yeah, it sucks that that all we've got - but that's the reality.

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Once again BRavor- Nobody is exempt here. But someone has to take on the oneness, and Brian just seems to be the same "unscolded" self that he is. Excuse the analogy, but he could fast become the "T.O. of coaches" by giving us the same product with a different cover.

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And, what of your criticism has anything to do with Billick? The only thing you have remotely said that could be Billick's fault is that he is somehow not playing the young guys and mortgaging our future. Hello, this team isn't about the future - it's about getting to another SB before Ray and Ogden retire and before Rolle, Mason and McNair get too old to contribute. This team is all about the here and now - and that is why Billick is playing the guys that he thinks gives him the best chance of winning. Again, it sucks that that's the best we've got, but until one of the younger guys truly steps up - that's it.

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There was no secret that the O-line was the first and foremost priority that needed to be addressed this offseason. This was the consensus around most of the football genre. Yet it remains the most stagnant part of our team. Yes, it has been addressed, but with players that all need development (even in their second year) and not ones that can make an immediate impact. Draft was not an option. It was spent on D-line (which I agree was needed-as far as Ray was concerned) and our inability to acquire impacting free agents where needed the most (Yes, I went there) was exposed.

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And, again, that is on Ozzie. You keep bringing Billick into your rant, but much of your criticism is misplaced.

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Originally Posted by 52decleetzu

Keep an eye on this situation: (hear that OZZIE!!)

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Yeah, I kept hearing the names of Liwienski and Rosenthal in the 2nd half on Friday night and was somewhat astonished that those guys were now back-ups.

I would definitely take a look at Rosenthal (also, he played for Fassel in NY) if he gets cut loose. IMO, OT is the more pressing need. Hell, I'd even offer Minn a lower round draft pick for their trouble. Granted, it's going to be tough for any OLmen to come onto the team now and get up to speed, so he may not be able to make an immediate impact. Still, we're one OT short at this point anyway, IMO, since we only have 3 viable ones on the roster. When you carry 9 OL on the 53-man roster, you usually are looking to carry 4 OTs, and after Ogden, Terry and Pashos, we've got no one that is deserving.

I've never held back on my dislike for Billick, here or on YBR. However, it seems convenient for you to miss my "nobody is exempt here" statement.

Hell, I was just asking the questions. Since you have all the answers, I'll stop.

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Originally Posted by Raineman

I've never held back on my dislike for Billick, here or on YBR. However, it seems convenient for you to miss my "nobody is exempt here" statement.

Hell, I was just asking the questions. Since you have all the answers, I'll stop.

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And, I took issue with your statement about Billick. I didn't ignore your statement about nobody is exempt, I directly addressed your criticism of Billick. And, you have failed to respond.

I'll ask again - given the way this team has been built, how is Billick "mortgaging the future"?

Look, there are plenty of things that Billick can be criticized for, I just thought this one was unfair.

BTW, if you're going to ask questions - and add criticism - then be prepared to back it up if someone disagrees with you. This is a discussion board, after all, isn't it?

This is not a line of circumstance. The Ravens have been content to stay the course. Right or wrong, this is the offensive line that the Ravens want.

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The Ravens have been content to stay the course. Right or wrong, this is the offensive line that the Ravens want.

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I agree to an extent. I think the Ravens were banking on 2 things happening:

1. That Mulitalo, Ogden, Flynn and Vincent would recover from injuries or take a new approach to conditioning this off-season and the result would be a return to their form of years past. Ogden hired a personal trainer and was reportedly in decent shape (which has partially or totally now been negated in the down-time following his father's passing). Mulitalo was injured to start the year last season and spent the entire off-season at the training facility. Vincent was injured last year.

2. The younger lineman drafted in the previous seasons would develop and either push the veterans or out-right replace them.

So I think it is somewhat inaccurate to state that the Ravens were "content" with the status quo. They realized changes were needed. However, their expectation (gamble?) was that the change would come from their current personnel or that those changes made in previous seasons - drafted lineman and new OL coach - would materialize.

To this point, it is not evident that these changes have worked and I agree it is very troubling factor heading into the season.

One note on "who's to blame?"...I agree that Billick can only play the players he's given, but anybody that understands how the Ravens work also understand that it is the coach's responsibility (and specifically the position coaches' responsibility) to provide info as to whether a certain player can be retained or if upgrades must be considered.

Now, whether Billick and Forrester were banging the table at the off-season meetings asking for new talent on the OL or whether they were telling Ozzie they had the players to succeed, we'll most likely never know.....until someone is replaced.

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To this point, it is not evident that these changes have worked and I agree it is very troubling factor heading into the season.

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I was very unhappy with the OL play last week and I think we have still had issues in every game, but I wouldn't say it is completely unimproved. The OL did play fairly well against a good Eagles DL and Giants DL. This could have just been a flat week. We haven't traveled well in a while, let's see if Billick can fix that. It might be more that than personnel.

looks like we might have some competition from one of their other former coaches:
http://www.azcardinals.com/fanzone/m...ead.php?t=9878

If you can't win with the "old" guys and do not put in the "new" guys, that to me, is mortaging the future. Call it whatever you want. This is the same line we lost with last year. I do not understand why anyone expects anything different from them. Put it on whoever you want to.

Everything on this team is "built to win now" just like it was last year. How can that be, when the most criticized part of our game (sans KB) was not addressed?

That said, I don't think BB is looking to next year because he HAS to win THIS year. I believe that will cause him to make decisions that may effect the future of the team after he is gone. (If in fact that happens) I wish I had a better way to get my point across, but right now, I don't.

The OL was what was much maligned and I'm still hoping for improvement this year but I was hoping for a personnel change that's not forth coming. My breakdown:

LT:
This is sorted now and I'm firm in the opinion that it's sorted in the future. I keep reading in various places about how Ogden had a bad year last year, this is all based on one game that was blown out of all proportions, the opener against Indy and the carry over from the previous Indy game. In the game last year it was particularly overblown, Freeney beat him three or four times from about 50 or so offensive snaps, OK that's more than we're used to but places like ESPN take that and overblow by showing the same play over and over and it seems like Ogden was beat like a government mule, when he actually wasn't. The best analysis of these two matchups I've read is at football outsiders, it breaks it down drive by drive and scores the matchup accordingly, Ogden actually won all round it the meeting last year. (I'll get the link if anyone wants it, just PM me.)

For the future I truly believe we're set with Adam Terry, he's not got the power and the leg drive to dominate in the run game but that'll come with time and he's shown some good positional blocking this year manoeuvering (sp.) his opponent so far this pre-season. His pass blocking technique is excellent and when Ogden chooses to step down we won't be left with a scrub at LT because Terry will be ready to be good pro player.

LG:
This is where the problems start, I love Mule and being the eternal optimist I'm hopeful that with his dropped weight, improved muscle:fat ratio and improved training attitude that we'll see an improved Edwin Mulitalo this year. However much he improves though unfortunately, I don't think we're gonna see a rise back to his 2003 form, that was his peak and I still think he'll struggle this year. His footwork is still poor and footwork isn't directly linked to weight. Against big DTs he's fine, always has been always will be, but against smaller DTs getting him moving laterally and also picking up blitzers or DEs coming on inside stunts I think Mule will still struggle this year. The lack of depth here really hurts as well, is Chris Chester ready yet? What's up with Jason Brown?

Looking to the future here it's got to be draft and free agency, Mule is coming to the end as an effective player on the OL and until I see Jason Brown this year I don't think we have the successor here.

C:
More issues, Flynn has looked better this pre-season from the minimal amounts I've seen but he's still getting pushed back by the big DTs. My Vikes friend told me that Pat Williams dominated this weekend and that isn't good news. The only glimmer of hope is that the Bungles DTs aren't great and the Browns have issues over the nose as well, but it's big bad news for facing Casey Hampton and Chris Hoke, constant double teams will be needed on whoever is at NT for the Hilljacks and that comprimises the other guard inside because I don't think that either Mule or Keydrick Vincent are particularly good with their footwork and picking up blitzers. Depth again is an issue here.

Looking to the future I thought Jason Brown was it and I thought it was coming this year, he was very good in his one start last year at Denver and I thought that showing would get him lots of first team snaps in camp, that hasn't come and perhaps his future lies at guard, either way I'd expected more noise to come from Brown trying to unseat a starter on the interior than I've heard. But perhaps I should have seen this coming with the acquisition of Chris Chester in the draft, for my money he's too undersized to be a guard so he's clearly meant to be that mobile centre for the future, we'll have to wait until next year on that one though me thinks.

RG:
Another weak spot on the interior, Keydrick Vincent was supposed to be the big signing at RG to upgrade this side of the line and he was woeful last year, didn't show the power in the blocks we expected and his mobility wasn't what we were led to believe either. I think he only signed a two year contract with us so unless we see a meteoric improvment this year I think this will be his last as a Raven. With the upgraded backfield (mainly by health but also the addition of Anderson) we should see more straight ahead running which may suit Vincent more, either way the improvement's got to come from somewhere or we're in a world of hurt on the interior again.

For the future again, Jason Brown, he can't play three spots but I hope he's able to claim a starter's spot at one of the three this year if the starters don't step up. Besides the Eli draft there is rarely a dreadful draft for interior O-linemen so our scouts should be able to pick someone out someone to come in and upgrade the interior, but with the pick of Chris Chester we may be seeing a change in focus from a physical line to a more mobile line, if so the question has to be asked whether it'll work against the physical defense in Pittsburgh and the growing D that will be built in the Patriot mould up in Cleveland.

RT:
Pashos isn't starting quality, that's pretty plain to see in my opinion. His run blocking is good but in pass pro he's flat footed and cannot cope with speed at all. I don't think there's too much you can say on him, he'd be a decent-ish backup to depend on in a stop gap situation but I'd be scared (as I am now) about going into the season with him as the only viable option at RT for 16 games.

For the future, I was annoyed we didn't get Marcus McNeil who I think will have an excellent (if somewhat shortish) NFL career, but that's in the past and nothing can be done so let's move on. RT is a tough position to plug (as the RT situations at many NFL teams attests to) simply because the best tackles play LT and RT's just aren't highly sought after because people think that the whole can be more easily plugged. With the draft it's an option again and someone like Justin Blalock of Texas would be an option to look at being an RT/G tweener who may well slip down draft boards next year.

On the OL at the mo the present looks bleak and the future looks bleak outside of LT, particularly with Jason Brown failing to make any noise in stealing a starting spot on the interior. I like the idea of a trade for getting more talent in but it simply isn't going to happen, not because we don't want it to but because OL are the least likely players to be traded for my money. They're the players who can most easily get injured (someone trips and rolls up a leg etc.) and consequently no-one will want to give away anyone of starting quality unless you're giving away a very good player in return because they probably won't have the depth or they may be just one game away from needing to make their coveted backup a key starter on their line.

We're in a tough spot but unfortunately we've just gotta play with the hand we've got. This line will either play well and the Front Office will be praised for sticking with them, or they'll continue to play poorly and FO will take a beating for not going and out and upgrading a clear weakness.

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Originally Posted by UKRavenStockers

This line will either play well and the Front Office will be praised for sticking with them, or they'll continue to play poorly and FO will take a beating for not going and out and upgrading a clear weakness.

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If that's not the truth, I don't know what is.

The OL is fine if there isn't heavy pressure...but of course everyone knows that and brings extra men or loads the box.

We're not getting that monkey off our back until we can finally start beating it. I thought the Giants drive was a shining beacon of hope.

Darkness fell in the vikings game.

Will there be hope? :crazy:

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Originally Posted by Raineman

If you can't win with the "old" guys and do not put in the "new" guys, that to me, is mortaging the future. Call it whatever you want. This is the same line we lost with last year. I do not understand why anyone expects anything different from them. Put it on whoever you want to.
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But, if the new guys are playing worse than the old guys in practice, then what good is playing them?

Do you think McNair or Ray or Ogden are going to be too pleased with playing these guys for the future, when for many of the players on this team, the future is NOW. After all, if it wasn't, why bring in McNair then? It's not just Billick that is playing for this year - it's a large part of the team.

And, again, Terry, Brown, Chester - all have 3 more years (at least) on the team, so it's not like they still aren't part of the future. There simply is no mortgaging going on here.

Look, I would love for some of the young guys to earn these spots and play well, but the bottom line is that they've got to beat out the competition. Given that Chester and Brown - because after all, that the only ones that we are really talking about - have both struggled against 2nd teamers, it unfortunately, appears that they simply aren't ready to take over the starting spots - even for starters who have played so poorly at times.

On the road, in a dome...Yes, our "tardes" are less-than-stellar...
It's as if on the day we drafted the best O-Lineman of his era, we cursed the unit as a whole...

Somebody Get Me a Doctor!