Hall of Fame 2012
Going to be announced Sat on NFLN at 5:30pm.
Jerome Bettis - no chance, but he is a Steeler so anything is possible.
Tim Brown - Should already be in
Jack Butler - no clue senior committee guy
Cris Carter - should already be in
Dermontti Dawson - LOOOONG overdue
Edward DeBartolo, Jr p- not a big fan of owners but whatever
Chris Doleman - LOOONG overdue
Kevin Greene - Should be in
Charles Haley - nope
Cortez Kennedy - nope
,Curtis Martin - not yet, should get in over Bettis for that era
Bill Parcells - 1st ballot not happening
Andre Reed - Hall of very good
Willie Roaf - 2nd year not happening
Will Shields - 1st ballot not happening
Dick Stanfel - no clue about him
Aeneas Williams - travesty he isn't in yet
It continues to disgust me how the voters are so stupid they value championships they way they do and keep players who are more than deserving out who don't have any.
This isn't fucking basketball, football has 50 players not 12and championships should be the LAST thing you look at. But time after time when you see someone who should be in that isn't, you can tie it to one thing....championships.
That said Haley who should in no way be in before about 6 other guys on the list will probably get in this year. It is absolutely ridiculous, but these idiot sportswriters will continue to spit on the careers of deserving players just because they weren't lucky enough to be on a great TEAM and win a ring. Or play in a small market that didn't get the press.
This year it does look like a lot of the snubs over the past years will get in though, due to all the first time eligible candidates on the list who have zero chance to get in that early. The bolded would be my 6.
Re: Hall of Fame 2012
Tell ya what if the voters fail to let Chris Carter in yet again, this voting process is a complete joke
Originally Posted by 52decleetzu
I hate the Steelers as much as anyone, but to say Bettis shouldn't get in?
Sixth all time in rushing yards over 13 seasons with over 90 TD's and a ring. Add into the equation this isn't exactly a stacked class compared to other years.
I think he stands a very good chance this year.
Bettis deserves to get in, but if the Hall is going to continue this "one player per position per year" nonsense then Bettis should wait until Curtis Martin gets in. Martin outperformed Bettis and he did so in fewer games.
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=39.369172,-76.761170
Re: Hall of Fame 2012
Bettis was an "accumulator" or a "compiler" of stats as they call it (google if you want a better explanation) and there is only 1 RB in the HOF (modern era)with less than a 4.0 ypc average out of 28 players. The one player who is in with less than 4.0? Floyd Little, who has been eligible for 31 YEARS before he got in last year. he got in for totals yards anyway and not what he did running the ball, and there was a heated debate as to whether he deserved to get in at all. So there is not ONE true RB in the HOF with anything lower than 4.1, and Bettis sits at 3.9.
Originally Posted by HoustonRaven
Totals mean nothing, averages mean everything when looking at stats. His totals aren't even that spectacular despite 4 years of garbage time at the end, as he was relegated to a strictly goalline fullback. I could go on and on maybe Luke Daniel can chime in him and myself have researched this stuff extensively over the past few years.
This is his first time eligible in the finals he has no chance. The mere fact he made it to the finals in his first year is ridiculous, he is the type of guy that should maybe get in after about 10 years, now he is set up for a few years of waiting instead.
Bettis was just another overrated Steeler, go pull up Curtis Martin and compare them across the board. Martin is better, just look at the consistency vs Bettis who was just hanging on his last 4 years "compiling" TD's from the 1 yd line and averaging about 3.3 a carry.
Look at the complete picture and don't be blinded by the Steeler mythology perpetrated by the media. He was a non factor out of the backfield, only averaged over 4 YPC 3 TIMES out of 13 years. 71 yards a game vs Martin's 84...not even close.
Is that "greatness"?
It will show how much of a joke the HOF has become when he gets in before Martin.
And this has nothing to do with me hating the Steelers, I have said for years it is a travesty and injustice a guy like Dermontii Dawson is not in. It has to do with the media and their "criteria" which goes back to a popularity anytime these idiots vote on ANY award.
Sounds like a little cherry picking. He's got a great shot getting in the next 3 years.
Appears that you're arguing your opinion on what admittance to the Hall 'should' be when it's fairly obvious the Hall will and does take players with his credentials on a regular basis.
Re: Hall of Fame 2012
I broke my laptop screen last night but I will respond in detail when I can get back on a computer. There is no cherry picking just facts, and it looks like for a change the voters got it right. Martin was better across the board and it really isn't close. Bettis not even making it past stage 1 should back that up. And these things I bring up aren't my criteria, if you read some archives of the pfr blog that is where a lot of it comes from.
Re: Hall of Fame 2012
Of all the names above, the only two I don't think are HOFers are Greene and Bettis. Don't know enough about Stanfel to say definitively.
There is simply no merit for Bettis being in the Hall of Fame. None whatsoever. A HOFer should be a great football player. Bettis was not that. He was a good football player for a while, but rarely bordered on great.
Consider the following bits of data:
1) Pro football reference rates him as the 386th best player in the history of football since 1950. There are roughly 180 post-1950 players in the Hall of Fame. So, even if there was a HOF, and a "backup hall of fame", there is no clearcut argument that Bettis belongs in either.
2) When you consider his production against other RBs that are also borderline HOFers (or not even viable HOF candidates), Bettis comes up shy as well. This shows you that PFR's approximate value does not discriminate against running backs. For instance, Edge James (hardly considered a first ballot HOFer) is ranked as the 60th best overall player of all-time and even Warrick Dunn, who will never sniff Canton, is ranked 187th.
3) DeCleetz mentioned it but Bettis' sub-4.0 YPC statistical line should doom him. That is a fairly important stat for a running back. When you consider the average RB in the NFL averages around 4.06 YPC, Bettis was actually performing at a below-replacement level for his career. How on earth can you endorse a player with that type of statistical void? It's not like in other sports, where there are other stats that determine your value. YPC is the singular measure of your qualitative efficiency and Bettis just doesn't stack up. I'm not 100% sure that Curtis Martin does either, but he offers more than Bettis in every area of evaluation.
4) People like to mention how Bettis is 6th all-time in rushing. He's also fourth in career carries.
5) Bettis only had one season, out of 13 as a pro, with a single-season AV of more than 12. His top three AV seasons were 15,12,11. By comparison, Ray Rice's three best AV seasons are 18,16,13. Rice has already had a better top-end value through four NFL seasons than Bettis did in his whole career. Funny how some of the people who talk about Bettis being a no-brainer also talk down Rice's Canton chances.
6) Bettis added nothing as a pass receiver. In 13 seasons, he had less than 1500 receiving yards. Again, using Rice as a barometer, Rice has already had 150% more receiving yards in 4 seasons than Bettis did in his long career. Of all HOF running backs since 1950, only Larry Csonka averaged less than 10 receiving yards per game. Bettis averaged 7.5 receiving yards/game for his career.
So what about Jerome Bettis makes him a hall of famer? The only answer is that quantitatively he racked up a lot of rushing yards. Naturally, they came despite a total lack of qualitative contributions or approximate value contributions. He wasn't efficient with how he ran the ball. He scored a low ratio of TDs for the amount of carries he accumulated (especially for a "short yardage" back), and he added no value in the passing game.
I'm not really sure why we are having this debate. Why aren't we debating why Eddie George got snubbed? They both retired right around the same time. At least George could catch the ball out of the backfield a little and had a few solid seasons where his AV was a least approaching HOF worthiness. From 98-00, George had back-to-back-to-back AV seasons of 12-15-14, far better than any stretch offered up by Bettis.
Re: Hall of Fame 2012
I was delighted to see Doleman get in. This guy was an elite player using every criteria available.
Chris' dad comes in and talks football with me at the dealership where I work quite regularly. Long before I first met him, I was on the Doleman for HOF bandwagon. When I first met him through a mutual friend about a year ago, I told him that I had a sentimental push for him to get into Canton because of how vastly underappreciated I felt his son was as a player. Really happy to see one of the all-time greats finally get his due.
Martin deserved to be in. A portrait of consistency. Using his AV-ometer he had seven years of 13 or better, which is impressive for a RB. Better than Bettis in every facet that you can evaluate a RB.
No arguments with Dawson.
Roaf was a no brainer. In my opinion, he was a far more qualified candidate than Dent on last year's ballot and deserved in before Dent did. He had four seasons of an AV of 14 or more, which is great for any O-lineman.
Kennedy surprised me as a selection. I didn't think he would get in this year. Part of me thinks he lacked the name recognition factor needed to get voted in. I also thought playing for the Seahawks would hurt him. It was highly encouraging to see that the HOF voters seem to be working more and more off of stats and ability, than name recognition, which might explain with Kennedy made it and Bettis didn't even make the final ten.
Personally, I thought Doleman, Tim Brown, and Roaf were the three most qualified finalists, with Aeneas Williams being a close 4th and Carter being 5th. Those would have been my five, along with Jack Butler. However, substituting Brown, Williams, and Carter for Martin, Dawson, and Kennedy doesn't rub me as being bad.
Re: Hall of Fame 2012
You just saved me a lot of typing. On a phone.
Couldn't have said it any better.
Kennedy shocked me as well.
Very happy that Dawson and Doleman finally got in. Both were tremendous players to watch and should have been there years ago.