The thing that is holding Flacco back....

**leachisabeast** · 11-26-2012, 03:42 PM

It may be Cam Cameron, but let's forget about Cam for one second and talk about Flacco's pocket presence and elusiveness and ability to avoid sacks (or lack of).

Flacco did a good job of this in his rookie year, he seemed a lot more mobile, and could escape pressure or make plays with his legs. Since then, he just looks like a statue out there. He is more of an athlete than people give him credit for, once he gets running, he's off. He isn't Roethlisberger, but he is certainly capable of avoiding pressure more than he does right now. If he could step up in the pocket more often, or get away from sacks, I think his statistics would look better, and he'd complete more passes down field. He could give more time for Torrey to get open down field too.

I believe Flacco has all the tools to break out of the "good" category, and emerge into the "elite" category, but I believe if it's ever going to happen, he's going to have to improve this aspect of his game.

**JustaslowZ06** · 11-26-2012, 03:45 PM

Hard to step up in the pocket when your C is getting pushed back into your lap every down. Just saying. And a undersized Gino isn't the answer either.

**leachisabeast** · 11-26-2012, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by JustaslowZ06

Hard to step up in the pocket when your C is getting pushed back into your lap every down. Just saying. And a undersized Gino isn't the answer either.

This could be more of a long term or next season type move, but I've been talking about Yanda moving to C, with KO moving inside to right guard and keep Jah Reid at left guard. Then draft either a left tackle in the draft which would move Oher to RT, or draft a pure RT and keep Oher on the left side. A lot of variables.

**arnie_uk** · 11-26-2012, 03:57 PM

The majority off the sacks yesterday were under three seconds, ko didn't even get a hand on the guy on the sacks he gave up. Nothing a quarterback can do there

**leachisabeast** · 11-26-2012, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by arnie_uk

The majority off the sacks yesterday were under three seconds, ko didn't even get a hand on the guy on the sacks he gave up. Nothing a quarterback can do there

Jen has been putting up with that crap since 2008 and always finds a way out of it.

**itsernst** · 11-26-2012, 04:06 PM

Gino Gradkowski seems like the heir apparent to the throne of center. Matt Birk has been bullied this year; I think a mauler at center is needed, and Gino fills that role.

**BigPlayReceiver** · 11-26-2012, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

This could be more of a long term or next season type move, but I've been talking about Yanda moving to C, with KO moving inside to right guard and keep Jah Reid at left guard. Then draft either a left tackle in the draft which would move Oher to RT, or draft a pure RT and keep Oher on the left side. A lot of variables.

Mobility needs to be emphasized in the OS for sure. Joe can move...we've all seen it.

WRT the OL, what we need is a solid duo or trio to rely on. Left side, right or middle, I don't care, but right now we don't have two or three adjacent guys that we can count on to blow open a hole, stuff a blitz or seal on a roll-out. I think it will take two additions to get there, b/c like others I don't think Gino is the answer quite yet at C, and both of our T's are weak. I would certainly like us to experiment with Jah-Yanda-KO on the interior during camp and PS.

**JustaslowZ06** · 11-26-2012, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by itsernst

Gino Gradkowski seems like the heir apparent to the throne of center. Matt Birk has been bullied this year; I think a mauler at center is needed, and Gino fills that role.

Gino is undersized. Just saying. And yes I know what he's listed at, but just looking on TV he doesn't look that big, certainly no 300+ pounds.

Edit: Think he needs a good 10-15 pounds of muscle to make it in our division, and who we play, esp the likes of Wilforks ad Co... Certainly doable in the offseason if he works at it.

**edgecrusher** · 11-26-2012, 04:12 PM

Maybe nothing is holding Flacco back? People still keep talking about some higher threshold that Flacco will reach once he fixes various other issues. Why not consider that he is in his fifth season and this is his ceiling? He is an above average QB who can win any football game but doesn't take the game over just by showing up. So he is not Brady or Manning but more like Rivers, Schaub, and Ryan. Seems simpler than coming up with a million external explanations.

**bmorecareful** · 11-26-2012, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by JustaslowZ06

Hard to step up in the pocket when your C is getting pushed back into your lap every down. Just saying. And a undersized Gino isn't the answer either.

This. Flacco's pocket presence has been pretty much continuously improving over the last few years. People USED to complain that he got happy feet and didn't take enough time to go through his progressions. Now they complain that he doesn't run around enough. I swear, Troy Smith must still have a lot of relatives around this town...

Originally Posted by arnie_uk

The majority off the sacks yesterday were under three seconds, ko didn't even get a hand on the guy on the sacks he gave up. Nothing a quarterback can do there

And this. /thread

**RavensNTerps** · 11-26-2012, 04:22 PM

Problem isn't the sacks, generally, it's the timing of them. Roethlisberger takes more sacks but is masterful in 3rd and long situations. Flacco is not. We get into 2nd and 10+ I kind of assume the drive is over immediately, which is ironic for the 4th and 29 huge play yesterday lol.

**londonraven** · 11-26-2012, 04:29 PM

I agree he is closing in on his ability ceiling. Although as we often see he can make all the passes when the game is on the line, but can be awful when it isn't.

Wold love to see a qb rating of his for drives where 'the game is on the line'. We often have big drops that tend to end a season which says it isnt on him so much.
That said yesterday throwing a check down 30 yards short of the first down wasn't a great play, altho obv it worked out.

**bmorecareful** · 11-26-2012, 04:31 PM

I don't think the OP's original argument is "THE thing holding Flacco back," but it could be contributory at times. Instead, let's talk about what OTHER things could potentially be holding Flacco back in a more significant way.

The one key thing I saw yesterday, and attribute it to Cam, Flacco, the receivers, or whatever, was that the offense looked terrible when they weren't throwing to the middle of the field. When they started throwing to the middle of the field, EVERYTHING seemed to click.

Sounds pretty obvious... but WHY? Why don't they use the middle of the field all game long? Clearly Cam is CAPABLE of drawing these plays up, and the players are CAPABLE of executing them. Also, they seem much more prone to use the middle of the field at home rather than on the road. How can that possibly be explained? Is it pure risk aversion--they are so terrified of throwing INTs to the crowded middle of the field that they won't even entertain the notion of trying?

**Ravenswintitle** · 11-26-2012, 04:37 PM

not sure if anyone heard Fouts saying that Harbaugh told him they wanted to turn that game into an AFCN slugfest. Long methodical drives, low scoring. They got what they wanted and miraculously it worked.

A fish stinks from the head or in this case smells like a rose

**elland** · 11-26-2012, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

Jen has been putting up with that crap since 2008 and always finds a way out of it.

Except when he is not playing, which seems to be happening 4 out 10 times and and a W every time.

**elland** · 11-26-2012, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by RavensNTerps

Problem isn't the sacks, generally, it's the timing of them. Roethlisberger takes more sacks but is masterful in 3rd and long situations. Flacco is not. We get into 2nd and 10+ I kind of assume the drive is over immediately, which is ironic for the 4th and 29 huge play yesterday lol.

And who is playing and who is not, seems pretty relevant to me. lol.

**leachisabeast** · 11-26-2012, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by bmorecareful

I don't think the OP's original argument is "THE thing holding Flacco back," but it could be contributory at times. Instead, let's talk about what OTHER things could potentially be holding Flacco back in a more significant way.

The one key thing I saw yesterday, and attribute it to Cam, Flacco, the receivers, or whatever, was that the offense looked terrible when they weren't throwing to the middle of the field. When they started throwing to the middle of the field, EVERYTHING seemed to click.

Sounds pretty obvious... but WHY? Why don't they use the middle of the field all game long? Clearly Cam is CAPABLE of drawing these plays up, and the players are CAPABLE of executing them. Also, they seem much more prone to use the middle of the field at home rather than on the road. How can that possibly be explained? Is it pure risk aversion--they are so terrified of throwing INTs to the crowded middle of the field that they won't even entertain the notion of trying?

Exactly...

I'm not saying this is the biggest thing holding Flacco back, because I believe it's the offensive system personally, but he could be a better player if he extends the play more often. Look at Indi last year, Flacco shown that he is clearly capable of running out of the pocket and making plays. I also agree that this offense needs to work the middle way more than we do, because we can be unstoppable with Boldin and Pitta working to their strengths in the slot.

**AirFlacco** · 11-26-2012, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by JustaslowZ06

Hard to step up in the pocket when your C is getting pushed back into your lap every down. Just saying. And a undersized Gino isn't the answer either.

Ditto.

I never understood that pick.

**ActualSpamBot** · 11-26-2012, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

Jen has been putting up with that crap since 2008 and always finds a way out of it.

Complaining that Joe isn't as good at escaping sacks and extending plays as Roethlisberger is akin to complaining that Ray Rice isn't as good at driving the pile as Earl Campbell.

Ben is maybe the best QB in NFL history at playing under pressure or with a man hanging off him.

Name me a single QB who can do what Ben does under pressure.

**lovefootball** · 11-26-2012, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot

Complaining that Joe isn't as good at escaping sacks and extending plays as Roethlisberger is akin to complaining that Ray Rice isn't as good at driving the pile as Earl Campbell.

Ben is maybe the best QB in NFL history at playing under pressure or with a man hanging off him.

Name me a single QB who can do what Ben does under pressure.

Being a drama queen is not being one of the best. Without that defense, Ben doesn't get the opportunities that he has had. He may have been the best two years ago, but his time is dwindling down. He's hurt more all the time and he didn't elude the two defenesive guys who put him out of the game. You can pick and choose what you want about br, but br is older, hurt more often, and is only as good as his receivers make him. Hell. P Manning is great, Brady is great,br is lucky.