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  1. #1
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    Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL



    Both the Chargers and the Ravens run the Ayr Coryell offense, and both offenses have been inconsistent over the years (the Chargers used to be a power house on offense when they had Tomlinson, and Vincent Jackson). After both offenses failed to get it going on Sunday for most of the game, and further more, the fact that the Ravens started lighting the Chargers up in the 4th quarter and OT when they went into a short timed passing game out of the spread offense, says to me that the whole philosophy of this offense needs to change (stating the obvious I know, but it needs to be said). That almost certainly means a change in OC. If we go on to win the SB, I think that Ozzie will probably re sign Cam for another 5 years of mediocrity and inconsistency on offnese, and we may never see Joe Flacco hit his ceiling.

    I know that many people on this board are big supporters of Norv Turner as an OC, and want him to come to Baltimore when he gets fired as the HC of the Chargers, but why? What have the Chargers done that sticks out to you in recent years? Philip Rivers was once a top 5 QB, and is now rumored to be traded in 2013, and has turned the ball over at will this year.

    Joe Flacco and this offense have been wildly inconsistent over the years, and have mostly been bailed out by a great defense or Ray Rice over the years, which has resulted in so many wins. Flacco has actually bailed us out of games when he calls his own shots in the spread/shotgun offense, and almost got us to the SB by coming out of the AC offense vs the Patriots in the AFCCG.

    Cam Cameron is bad and doesn't make sense at the best of times, but maybe any OC who believes in the AC wouldn't be a good fit for any team in todays NFL. The Lions run a hybrid AC, and do a pretty good job of it, but again, they aren't a winning team, and have been inconsistent as hell on offense regardless of the mass numbers they put. They have Calvin Johnson to throw to with Matthew Stafford throwing him the ball in a domed stadium. That offense never works in cold weather stadiums.

    The ONLY time the AC can work is when you have both a stud back (we do in Ray Rice), and a big, fast, and abnormal human being at WR like Calvin Johnson (we don't have one, even though Torrey is really promising, and Boldin being a better fit for WCO). Cap reasons, and the fact that we draft so low all the time makes it impossible for us to ever land a Calvin Johnson in the draft. The Chargers looked better when they had Vincent Jackson and Tomlinson at his best, and even then, they didn't get to the SB.

    I don't think this team is necessarily built for a WCO, but I am certainly tired of seeing the same old inconsistent AC offense. What we need to do is improve the run game, we need some help on the OL, and we need more consistent play in the passing game to open up the run game, because most of the time, teams are just taking Rice out of the equation. We need a guy like Antonio Brown to help out in our passing game, someone who can run awesome routes and one of those quick footed atheletes who can move the chains, that would go perfectly along with Torrey Smith, Boldin and Pitta. I really like Tavon Austin out of West Virginia, but I like Stedmain Baily in the 3rd round more.

    What I'd really like is more of the no huddle that we run at home, but some how find a way to run it on the road too, like the Patriots do. But we also need to have that power run scheme to back us up if shit goes wrong in the no huddle, because I'm not sure if our current Oline is up to the task of physically dominating other Dlines in the trenches, that the 49ers can do.

    This is just a boring day at work for me, so I decided to post this, what do you guys think? Please note this is not a thread to start arguing about whether or not Flacco is elite, average, or terrible, or how much of a terrible OC Cam is. This thread is intended to identify what the best offensive philosophy is for us going forward, and what personnel changes need to be made on offense in order to progress as a top flight offense that we see at the bank.




  2. #2

    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    I hate the AC. Go 1 back K-Gun like Manning or WC if you want to hang onto Leach. But AC is for dinosaurs.




  3. #3
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    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Silver View Post
    I hate the AC. Go 1 back K-Gun like Manning or WC if you want to hang onto Leach. But AC is for dinosaurs.
    I'm not sure if the WC is a good fit for Flacco though, he isn't a quick release type QB that is best making little dinky throws all game. He's best used taking shots down field or throwing strikes, the AC offense allows him to do those things, the problem is, it's such a dated offensive scheme.

    I guess some kind of hybrid like what GB run would be a good fit.




  4. #4

    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    I'm not sure if the WC is a good fit for Flacco though, he isn't a quick release type QB that is best making little dinky throws all game. He's best used taking shots down field or throwing strikes, the AC offense allows him to do those things, the problem is, it's such a dated offensive scheme.

    I guess some kind of hybrid like what GB run would be a good fit.
    Flacco looks good when he's in the no huddle getting the ball out as soon as possible (especially when they work the middle of the field).




  5. #5

    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    You can run any offense you want, but if the respective O-lines give up 5 and 6 sacks, the unit will struggle. Add to that a a few false starts and the efficiency goes down even further. I've just come to the belief that the 5 big mollies up front are the biggest determinant in a successful offense. If you can't block a defense consistently, you can't do anything on offense.

    San Diego and Norv Turner have just had their O-line decay in the last few years, starting 3 backups Sunday. Similarly, the Ravens have been in big transition up front the last 2 years, but really haven't been elite up front since 2009.

    It's not all the scheme, and it's not all the talent of the players you have, but I'd have to say it's mostly about the players.




  6. #6
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    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Good point on the o-line decay. TV showed the Packer's line getting
    Aaron Rogers killed. Same thing is happening to them. Our line
    looked a lot better than GBs but it's happening all over with the o-lines.
    UBER RAVENS FAN AND HISTORIAN GURU.




  7. #7
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    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    We need a legit LT IMO, and Oher needs to play RT. That alone will help this offense. Still not sold at all on the AC though.




  8. #8

    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco View Post
    Good point on the o-line decay. TV showed the Packer's line getting
    Aaron Rogers killed. Same thing is happening to them. Our line
    looked a lot better than GBs but it's happening all over with the o-lines.
    Which is why I'm a great proponent (as is leachisabeast) for fixing the OL in 2013.
    5 needs more time for his progressions, and as tough as he is, still the hits are piling up (30+ sacks/yr), PLUS we also need to f-in stop getting stuffed on short yardage situations.
    Fix the OL and this offense goes ape-isht home, away, on the surface of the moon, wherever...and I think that even with Cammie's non-rhythmic play calling, this offense can significantly increase its productivity. You know...FOUR full quarters of effectiveness, instead of one or two.

    I don't want to get wrapped up in system nomenclature. I'd rather look at skills and production. 82 running an out 2/3s on the time is fail. 88 running 2-3 yard outs is a waste of his beautiful hands and positional speed. From what I see live and on tape, Cammie doesn't consistently leverage or exploit match-ups. I also see a lot of guys motoring down just as they break open...which tells me that both our guys AND the DBs anticipate that Joe won't/can't progress across/down the field on any given pass play. That's a huge problem.

    Can Cammie learn new tricks? I have no reason to believe that he can. But like it's been said many times before, the only likely scenario of him going away is us falling short of the SB with only 2-3 FGs on the board. So I'm back to aggressively (i.e., pursuing whatever needs the FO determines) fixing the OL.




  9. #9

    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Quote Originally Posted by LC_Ravens_87 View Post
    You can run any offense you want, but if the respective O-lines give up 5 and 6 sacks, the unit will struggle. Add to that a a few false starts and the efficiency goes down even further. I've just come to the belief that the 5 big mollies up front are the biggest determinant in a successful offense. If you can't block a defense consistently, you can't do anything on offense.

    San Diego and Norv Turner have just had their O-line decay in the last few years, starting 3 backups Sunday. Similarly, the Ravens have been in big transition up front the last 2 years, but really haven't been elite up front since 2009.

    It's not all the scheme, and it's not all the talent of the players you have, but I'd have to say it's mostly about the players.
    This. Though play-calling is also a huge factor.

    Neither the Ravens nor the Chargers have the pass protection (O-Line, Tight Ends and Running Backs) for the Air Coryell.

    Because overall they're both just average with their pass protection, though with the Ravens it's more a lack of consistency. Either way though, average or inconsistent pass protection isn't good enough for the AC.




  10. #10
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    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Quote Originally Posted by PerpetuallyBored74 View Post
    This. Though play-calling is also a huge factor.

    Neither the Ravens nor the Chargers have the pass protection (O-Line, Tight Ends and Running Backs) for the Air Coryell.

    Because overall they're both just average with their pass protection, though with the Ravens it's more a lack of consistency. Either way though, average or inconsistent pass protection isn't good enough for the AC.
    Yeah and look how much better they look when we run the no huddle with quicker timed passes. The WCO would make this unit look much better than it is.




  11. #11

    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    I don't think we can go strictly WCO or AC, it has to be a combination of the two just based on Joe's strength's and the type of personnel we have.




  12. #12

    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco View Post
    I still beg to differ on the AC. CAM runs a combination of that such as the long bomb to Torrey and the West Coast offense such as the short pass to Rice cutting across the middle which he turned into a 29 yd gain. The D had to respect Torrey so much, it left the middle open
    for Joe to throw underneath.
    Eh...it was a dumpoff (Rice wasn't cutting anywhere...he was just drifting slowly out of the backfield and it was open because The Chargers were playing 15 yards off and it wasn't just Torrey that went deep...all 4 of our guys went deep (Jacoby, Q and Pitta)...it was basically the same play we run 3-4 times a game...the dreaded "all go" (BTW, it's a play that Bill Walsh ran as well). The result of that play really had nothing to do with design, it had all to do with the way the Chargers sucked at tackling and Rice's effort.

    Quote Originally Posted by LC_Ravens_87 View Post
    You can run any offense you want, but if the respective O-lines give up 5 and 6 sacks, the unit will struggle. Add to that a a few false starts and the efficiency goes down even further. I've just come to the belief that the 5 big mollies up front are the biggest determinant in a successful offense. If you can't block a defense consistently, you can't do anything on offense.

    San Diego and Norv Turner have just had their O-line decay in the last few years, starting 3 backups Sunday. Similarly, the Ravens have been in big transition up front the last 2 years, but really haven't been elite up front since 2009.

    It's not all the scheme, and it's not all the talent of the players you have, but I'd have to say it's mostly about the players.
    I like the WCO because it stresses quick decisions and throws...which minimize the OL play. Short, 3 step drops, taking the short passes and having an accurate QB who can get the ball to guys in position to get YAC.

    These LONG, 7 step play action passes take so freaking long to develop...most teams don't run that long play action action for that very reason...it gives defensive players too much time to get to the QB. Those plays were staples of teams like the Raiders and Chargers in the 70-s and early 80's...there is a reason why nobody does that anymore.

    I remember a quote from Rex this offseason saying that it's so hard to get to QB's these days unless you have a completely free rusher because QB's are getting rid of the ball so quick now days. We need to get with the program and get the ball out of Joe's hands quick.

    Unfortunately, Cam (and Harbaugh has bought into this) are ALL about "big chunk" plays, instead of ball possession and consistent positive yards.
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




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