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  1. #25
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    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL



    Quote Originally Posted by Bazooka Joe View Post
    Besides AC and West Coast, what other systems are there? Is Run and Shoot a system or part of the above mentioned? What does Caldwell run?
    Run and gun is basically pass 100 % of the time out of the shotgun, no body uses that scheme in the NFL.

    There is the spread option that we see from our offense when playing at home, or as we know it "the sugar huddle", you can pound the ball and go pass happy with that system. The issues with it are, you can't realistically run that offense for the full length of a game, and in hostile and loud environments. But if you can find a way around that like the Patriots do, it can one of the hardest things for any defense to defend against, it keeps everyone on the field, and wares down a defense. It keeps them guessing "run or pass", and especially when we have Ray Rice in the back field.

    There are other hybrid offensive systems that you can run like the 49ers run a power run scheme WCO for example. Detroit run a hybrid between the WCO and the AC, but predominantly the AC offense.

    Of course there are the gimmick college offenses that the likes of Tebow can run, but they don't belong in the NFL.




  2. #26
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    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    And there's another wrinkle to this.

    Cam doesn't run a true AC offense. So to judge the AC offense on what he's been doing (or not doing) is not fair to the system.

    He's never had the 2nd WR deep threat, thus has been relying too much on Smith to pick up the slack. The problem there is predictability, something we've all noticed from this offense.

    All the more reason I'd want Norv as our OC. He's knows the system FAR better than Cam will ever know it and it's a great response to the zone blitz we see twice a year from the Steelers.
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  3. #27
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    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Quote Originally Posted by Bazooka Joe View Post
    Besides AC and West Coast, what other systems are there? Is Run and Shoot a system or part of the above mentioned? What does Caldwell run?
    LOL Ground and pound

    You also have Mike Martz who would get his QB sacked often looking for downfield passes

    Also have to consider what formations are used.... the same play (route trees) can be run by different teams, but with different personell packages can look like a totally different play (2 TE vs no TE, but if you look at the downfield development receivers are moving in the same ways.

    I'd be interested to hear on Caldwell, I don't really know... didn't Manning do most of the decisions?
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  4. #28

    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle View Post
    1. it was one game
    2. Harb said he wanted it to be a low scoring grind-out AFCN type game. That part was by design
    That road performance, specifically the first 3 quarters is what this offense has been doing the entire year. Inefficient, conservative, predictable and frequent 3 and outs. We can't continue to endure longs droughts like that on the road. Did you not notice on several occassions the disparity in offensive stats(home vs road) CBS kept flashing. If Harbs said that during his presser, I'm calling BS on that.




  5. #29
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    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Quote Originally Posted by pslholder96 View Post
    That road performance, specifically the first 3 quarters is what this offense has been doing since 2008
    Fixed that for you.




  6. #30
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    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Quote Originally Posted by pslholder96 View Post
    That road performance, specifically the first 3 quarters is what this offense has been doing the entire year. Inefficient, conservative, predictable and frequent 3 and outs. We can't continue to endure longs droughts like that on the road. Did you not notice on several occassions the disparity in offensive stats(home vs road) CBS kept flashing. If Harbs said that during his presser, I'm calling BS on that.
    I also saw Flacco missing some throws badly, dropped passes and once when SD stacked the box and he still ran the draw for no gain; and once when he changed the play to run and it was completely stuffed. Plenty of finger pointing to go around

    Harbs said the team has the ability to win in multiple ways and against SD they wanted a grind out low scoring game. That's what they got.
    The offense is still top 10 in scoring
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  7. #31

    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Remember last season when Joe (almost) never passed on 1st or 2nd and goal?
    And now this season he has?
    Well, last season, we didn't have a veteran tight end, no 3rd WR, and even Boldin was hurt.
    This season, we have Pitta & Dickson with some experience, Jacoby has been excellent (overall) for a 3rd WR, and Boldin is healthy.

    So, now Cam feels comfortable relying on the passing game as much as the run in the red zone. But even now, most of Joe's TD passes at the goal line have been to the tight ends, the TDs by the WRs have been mostly the 20 yard+ kind.

    This is essentially the same approach Cam used in San Diego when Gates was catching a TD almost every game, with Tomlinson not far behind. Cam doesn't like to rely on WRs in the red zone unless they prove themselves to be reliable red zone targets.

    If Tommy Streeter develops, he may lead our WRs in TDs because of his height/size (our VJax) while Torrey will remain "the deep guy" (our Wallace) even if Torrey becomes the better all-around WR.

    Cam hasn't really changed, and there's no reason to think he ever will.




  8. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post

    I'm not sure if the WC is a good fit for Flacco though, he isn't a quick release type QB that is best making little dinky throws all game. He's best used taking shots down field or throwing strikes, the AC offense allows him to do those things, the problem is, it's such a dated offensive scheme.

    I guess some kind of hybrid like what GB run would be a good fit.
    He could have a quick release. Some olays he does get the ball out pretty quickly.

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  9. #33

    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    I 100% agree. The AC is intended to be a grind it out style offense. The backs are primarily used as pass blockers on passing plays. The reason why it has failed so miserably in Bmore is because they have never had a truly great Oline. In order for that system to work the Oline and running game has to be so good that the other team needs to stack the box to stop the run. That way when you play action you have 1 on 1 matchups. Ravens Oline has never been that good. When they play action pass the wrs are rarely if ever open. Last year when they finally got a wr that could win one on one matchups they had success going deep. This year teams are bracketing Smith and are able to do this because they don't need to load the box to stop the run. The only reason the offense has been serviceable is because Rice is such a good receiver. When they run play action pass and none of the receivers are open he becomes the safety valve. I don't know in today's salary cap football that you can ever really run that offense. It is too costly to retain the necessary oline. The AC puts a tremendous amount of pressure on the Oline which has consistently been the Ravens weakest unit.




  10. #34

    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Cam Cameron runs the most traditional Air Coryell in the entire NFL--in fact, his system is generally identical to that of the 79-85 Chargers under Coryell.

    I-formation offense or 2-TE offense, centered around two things: 1) running the ball between the tackles, and 2) deep pass patterns for the outside WRs with TEs and backs eating up the short space over the middle. Fouts' Chargers ran the ball more than they passed it, but (contrary to popular belief) the system is neither a run-first nor pass-first system--you can do more of either so long as you take advantage of the matchups (i.e. pass when the defense plays run and vice versa.)

    The Coryell offense really works when you have 2 wideouts that the defense must respect deep, a TE who is unstoppable over the middle and down the seams, and a multi-threat RB. All of them have to be better athletes than the guys defending them because there is very little variation in the plays since each skill position has essentially only one overall job in the offense.

    The Fouts Chargers had tremendous success with this offense because they had all the personnel needed to make it work. They had 2 deep threats at WR, a HOF TE that revolutionized the way the position was played with his athleticism, and a great pass-catching RB (Chuck Muncie). Not coincidentally, 5 of their 11 offensive starters were top 20 overall picks.

    The ultra-traditional Air Coryell that Cam Cameron runs most of the time is too antiquated to work in the salary cap era. It relies on every skill position player winning his one-on-one matchup and an OL that is equally adept blocking in the run and pass. The main schematic problem with it is that it does not use any horizontally breaking routes. All the routes are vertical, and receivers are encouraged to round off their routes to get greater depth. This goes counter to the modern route running technique, which is to sharply break your routes in or out to better fool the defender. The routes are also not designed to work in concert at all, they are all pure isolation patterns.

    Variants of the Air Coryell can work, but they need to be updated with modern route designs that break more sharply and work in tandem to set up route combinations. Coryell derivative offenses still work well and are used throughout the NFL. I believe that the reason the Ravens offense is so effective out of the no-huddle is that Flacco has learned a lot of the 2000's Colts playbook from Caldwell and is implementing it, possibly outside of the control of Cam Cameron.




  11. #35
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    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Quote Originally Posted by LC_Ravens_87 View Post
    This was the first game I can remember Torrey running not only 1 but 2 crossers and Joe hitting him on both of them. Not only that, but Smith was lined up in the slot both times. It's a different wrinkle and with a guy like Jacoby Jones out there as well, one that I hope to see again.
    Its amazing what happens when you utilize all of your toys. Torrey can do so much more than "9" routes all game. Not that he shouldn't run 9 routes, but he could be deadly in the slot (as almost evidenced in the SD game)

    Quote Originally Posted by LC_Ravens_87 View Post
    Torrey is clearly growing as a route runner, and I don't know if it's so much Cam won't call these types of plays, it's just that they weren't likely to work with Torrey still in the learning process as an NFL WR.
    Its all Cam IMO. Torrey actually used a quick "in" route from the slot on those crosses for the first time that I can remember. Not sure where I read it but one of the hallmarks of the AC offense is the receivers "rounding" their routes rather than hard breaks. Seems to me thats when we see our WR's not getting separation, this is the reason.
    Last edited by 4G63; 11-27-2012 at 02:09 PM.




  12. #36
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    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    I-formation offense or 2-TE offense, centered around two things: 1) running the ball between the tackles, and 2) deep pass patterns for the outside WRs with TEs and backs eating up the short space over the middle.
    I wish they used the I-form with Leach and Rice behind him. I think it would help with reads for Joe to check out of and the LB's would have to match up with Leach and Ray if Joe switched to the shotgun (with Rice and Leach beside him). I think it could be so much more versatile, even if you're just running out of it because it puts everyone on the field that are best at their position.




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