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  1. #37

    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL



    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post

    There is the spread option that we see from our offense when playing at home,
    Of course there are the gimmick college offenses that the likes of Tebow can run, but they don't belong in the NFL.
    The Spread option is what Tim Tebow ran at Florida and Cam Newton ran at Auburn. It gives the option of the quarterback taking the ball and running with it. And the sugar huddle isn't a type of offense, it is just a pace of play that be ran with any formation or playbook. The spread (not option) also isn't really an offensive philosophy, because we spread the field all of the time, yet the receivers are still running vertical (AC) routes.




  2. #38

    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Quote Originally Posted by LoganSF View Post
    The Spread option is what Tim Tebow ran at Florida and Cam Newton ran at Auburn. It gives the option of the quarterback taking the ball and running with it. And the sugar huddle isn't a type of offense, it is just a pace of play that be ran with any formation or playbook. The spread (not option) also isn't really an offensive philosophy, because we spread the field all of the time, yet the receivers are still running vertical (AC) routes.
    Yet...#5 running a draw or two, or a naked boot or two each game could be pretty effective.




  3. #39

    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Quote Originally Posted by 4G63 View Post
    Its all Cam IMO. Torrey actually used a quick "in" route from the slot on those crosses for the first time that I can remember. Not sure where I read it but one of the hallmarks of the AC offense is the receivers "rounding" their routes rather than hard breaks. Seems to me thats when we see our WR's not getting separation, this is the reason.
    You probably read it in the same article that I did, this one:
    http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/page/...r-torrey-smith

    Because it's such a long article (and it's a freebie) here's the relevant excerpt:

    The Ravens, unlike teams that use a West Coast passing attack, don't want their receivers making sharp, 90-degree breaks when they come out of their routes. Baltimore's Air Coryell offense asks its receivers to instead bend their routes while running full speed, a change that might seem subtle, but one that -- to a wide receiver -- is like trying to learn to write left-handed after spending your entire life as a righty.

    "I was taught in college to break down," [Torrey] Smith said. "There are other teams in the league that run it like we did in college. But the way we do it, we round everything off because it's faster. You're still making sharp cuts, but it requires a brand-new technique, and we didn't have an offseason to work on it."




  4. #40

    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    The ultra-traditional Air Coryell that Cam Cameron runs most of the time is too antiquated to work in the salary cap era. It relies on every skill position player winning his one-on-one matchup and an OL that is equally adept blocking in the run and pass. The main schematic problem with it is that it does not use any horizontally breaking routes. All the routes are vertical, and receivers are encouraged to round off their routes to get greater depth. This goes counter to the modern route running technique, which is to sharply break your routes in or out to better fool the defender. The routes are also not designed to work in concert at all, they are all pure isolation patterns.
    I disagree. You don't have to have a ton of studs to make the Coryell work, and Gibbs proved that repeatedly in Washington. What you do need is a solid offensive line, a good running game, and a good mix of receivers. They don't have to be great, though Monk certainly was.

    The Coryell is about dictating to the opponent, and that's what the Chargers did with Fouts and Co. and what Gibbs did with multiple personnel sets through the '80s. It's also about getting the offense into a rhythm. Pound the rock and throw for first downs, hit your fast guy/s deep when the defense creeps up.

    The Redskins ditched the fullback for a blocking tight end (thanks to LT), and ran with a lone set back and three wide-outs. Leach is too good a player to leave on the bench, but there's no reason the Coryell can't work effectively with two in the backfield, a tight end, and two wide-outs. The Ravens just have to quit trying to throw it deep every third down and half the second downs. Boldin and Smith can both be effective on quick slants and crossing routes to move the chains. Rice is a feature back. Pierce is capable of spelling Rice.




  5. #41
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    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Quote Originally Posted by bacchys View Post
    I disagree. You don't have to have a ton of studs to make the Coryell work, and Gibbs proved that repeatedly in Washington. What you do need is a solid offensive line, a good running game, and a good mix of receivers. They don't have to be great, though Monk certainly was.

    The Coryell is about dictating to the opponent, and that's what the Chargers did with Fouts and Co. and what Gibbs did with multiple personnel sets through the '80s. It's also about getting the offense into a rhythm. Pound the rock and throw for first downs, hit your fast guy/s deep when the defense creeps up.

    The Redskins ditched the fullback for a blocking tight end (thanks to LT), and ran with a lone set back and three wide-outs. Leach is too good a player to leave on the bench, but there's no reason the Coryell can't work effectively with two in the backfield, a tight end, and two wide-outs. The Ravens just have to quit trying to throw it deep every third down and half the second downs. Boldin and Smith can both be effective on quick slants and crossing routes to move the chains. Rice is a feature back. Pierce is capable of spelling Rice.
    That was the 80's, this is now. IMO it can only work if you have Ray Rice in the back field, Calvin Johnson and Torrey Smith or Mike Wallace at WR, Grontkowski at TE, and JO at LT leading a solid Oline. IMPOSSIBLE in the cap era.




  6. #42
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    The Colts ran a version of the AC, and Denver is running it now. St Louis under Mike Martz ran the weirdest version of it I've even seen, it used screens and draws where everyone else used a power run game. Bruce Arians ran a hybrid WC/AC concept in Pitt for a while before they moved to a vertical WCO and more or less ditched their power run game.

    The AC works. Just because a lot of teams don't run it doesn't mean anything. When the Ravens made the switch from the 4-3 to the 3-4 we were one of a very small handful of teams doing it. Now, half the league does. Things go in cycles and right now the WCO is at an apex, but just like the 3-4 was a good system in the early 2000s even though no one except Pitt was really embracing it, the AC can still put up points in buckets even though it's not a widely used system.
    My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging. -Hank Aaron




  7. #43
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    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    The Colts ran a version of the AC, and Denver is running it now. St Louis under Mike Martz ran the weirdest version of it I've even seen, it used screens and draws where everyone else used a power run game. Bruce Arians ran a hybrid WC/AC concept in Pitt for a while before they moved to a vertical WCO and more or less ditched their power run game.

    The AC works. Just because a lot of teams don't run it doesn't mean anything. When the Ravens made the switch from the 4-3 to the 3-4 we were one of a very small handful of teams doing it. Now, half the league does. Things go in cycles and right now the WCO is at an apex, but just like the 3-4 was a good system in the early 2000s even though no one except Pitt was really embracing it, the AC can still put up points in buckets even though it's not a widely used system.
    But wouldn't you prefer a verticle based WCO? Short passes to Torrey Smith and letting him sprint up the field like a Victor Cruz, and of course you would have Boldin, Pitta, and Rice for first down conversions, everyone would be playing to their strengths. It would also help our Oline out too with quicker timed passes, our Oline (not many are in todays league) are built to pass protect for long developing routes IMO.




  8. #44
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    Frankly I don't think our receivers are polished enough route runners (except perhaps for Boldin who is on the decline) nor is Flacco precise enough in his mechanics to put a major emphasis on timing routes. I would like to see a better use of the route tree and more creative formations.

    In other words, I think the best thing we could be offensively is the Colts during the Edge James years. An explosive, vertical offense with a strong running game complimenting it.
    My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging. -Hank Aaron




  9. #45

    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Both the Giants and the Pats run a version of the un and Shoot offense. Was reading up on it and the problem with it is you're forced to protect your QB with only 6 guys. However a hybrid which is what both NY and NE run Brady/Manning in the Gun with their RB to their side and 4 WR's, or 3 WR's and a TE split out would be very effective here. Problem being you just lost the use of the best FB in the league.




  10. #46

    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    So we've landed on the reasonable perception that our skills don't map well to our scheme...that is, our OL can't sustain 4-5 sec pass blocks, and our WRs can't consistently create space. Soooo...

    Screw it--I just scrapped the long post I had with a bunch of if-then and crap, b/c I think the most straightforward path is:

    1) Fix the OL so that either G-C-G or C-G-T is a top tier sub-unit. I'm not sure this can be accomplished in less than 3 moves for 2013.
    The Hope and Faith: Gino Gradkowski at C.
    Even more Hope and Faith: More hope and faith really. We keep the status quo and hope that out of Harewood, Reid, KO and Gino, two of them develop into solid players come September.

    2) There's no "big" WR that will be in the Draft or FA mix for us, so nab one of the three towering TEs (Eifert, Ertz or Fauria). No one of them block particularly well, but there's the big (albeit a bit slow) target that our AC variant system appartently needs. Will further help the RZ offense as well. With this path in mind, Dickson is ultimately out (starting with a low tenure for 2013), and Pitta is extended.
    The Hope and Faith: Streeter takes a very big step this summer.
    The Back-up Plan: Draft a smaller WR that can create space with his feet: Austin, Woods or Bailey.

    3) Expand the offense. Integrate the complete route tree (slants and digs especially), a lot more combo/rub routes, QB draws and boots. Cammie has actually tweaked the offense from year-to-year, but there's still a lot of tools being left in the shed.
    The Hope and Faith: Cammie continues to tweak in the direction of innovation and imagination...and maybe even spends 2013 in the coach's booth.
    Skinning the Cat: Cammie gets "fired" after we score only FGs in the Div round (but still win), FGs in the CG (but still win), and get shutout in the SB. Joe Lombardi is hired to replace.




  11. #47
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    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Quote Originally Posted by BigPlayReceiver View Post
    So we've landed on the reasonable perception that our skills don't map well to our scheme...that is, our OL can't sustain 4-5 sec pass blocks, and our WRs can't consistently create space. Soooo...

    Screw it--I just scrapped the long post I had with a bunch of if-then and crap, b/c I think the most straightforward path is:

    1) Fix the OL so that either G-C-G or C-G-T is a top tier sub-unit. I'm not sure this can be accomplished in less than 3 moves for 2013.
    The Hope and Faith: Gino Gradkowski at C.
    Even more Hope and Faith: More hope and faith really. We keep the status quo and hope that out of Harewood, Reid, KO and Gino, two of them develop into solid players come September.

    2) There's no "big" WR that will be in the Draft or FA mix for us, so nab one of the three towering TEs (Eifert, Ertz or Fauria). No one of them block particularly well, but there's the big (albeit a bit slow) target that our AC variant system appartently needs. Will further help the RZ offense as well. With this path in mind, Dickson is ultimately out (starting with a low tenure for 2013), and Pitta is extended.
    The Hope and Faith: Streeter takes a very big step this summer.
    The Back-up Plan: Draft a smaller WR that can create space with his feet: Austin, Woods or Bailey.

    3) Expand the offense. Integrate the complete route tree (slants and digs especially), a lot more combo/rub routes, QB draws and boots. Cammie has actually tweaked the offense from year-to-year, but there's still a lot of tools being left in the shed.
    The Hope and Faith: Cammie continues to tweak in the direction of innovation and imagination...and maybe even spends 2013 in the coach's booth.
    Skinning the Cat: Cammie gets "fired" after we score only FGs in the Div round (but still win), FGs in the CG (but still win), and get shutout in the SB. Joe Lombardi is hired to replace.
    You and I think much alike, this is exactly what I HOPE happens for the Ravens long term. I'm also a big fan of Fauria (listed as 6'7 lol), not the best of blockers, but better than Pitta at blocking IMO. He and Pitta would make a good tandem. We could look at getting Fauria in the 3rd round if we're lucky, because I still think ILB is a need in the 2nd round, maybe a Kevin Minter. First round IMO you take the franchises left tackle, there are a few, but the problem is, will they be around the area we are picking? I really like Eric Fisher. Has great size, and because he's from a small school he may drop to us, but from what I've seen of him on tape, he compares favorably with Joe Staley (a guy that the Ravens really really wanted.)




  12. #48

    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    But wouldn't you prefer a verticle based WCO? Short passes to Torrey Smith and letting him sprint up the field like a Victor Cruz, and of course you would have Boldin, Pitta, and Rice for first down conversions, everyone would be playing to their strengths. It would also help our Oline out too with quicker timed passes, our Oline (not many are in todays league) are built to pass protect for long developing routes IMO.
    I think it was against the stoolers where Torrey ran a couple of crossing patterns for solid gainers.

    I frankly don't understand running vertical routes with an OLINE that cannot block long enough for the receivers to run them.

    I also don't like routes run on the same side of the field close enough to allow for over under coverage on both.




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