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  1. #85

    Re: What is Joe worth?



    Quote Originally Posted by houstonravensfan View Post
    Joe is a good QB, but he will be overpaid as if he were a very good QB because the FO has left themselves with no choice.

    Unlike other teams (a very few other teams) we have no proven experienced backup, nor a young backup QB with the physical skills and college record to strongly suggest he could develop into a quality NFL QB. As a Ravens fan I'd like to think Tyrod could be a sold NFL QB, but even after a full bottle of Tormaresco Puglia (DAMN good red) I am not irrational enough to believe that. If we do not overpay Joe, where are we at QB?

    I hope I'm being overly pessimistic (I'll blame the wine) but it seems the FO failed to develop effective depth behind its key players -- Ray, Ed, Grubbs, Flacco. I'll admit we have Pierce behind Rice, but behind Ray -- UDFas; Ed --?; Grubbs -- Harewood? Jah?; Flacco -- Tyrod? Really?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevlar View Post
    I like Flacco and hope he stays a Raven. But it does seem kinda dumb that the Ravens have no fallback option in his walk year. If i were Flacco I would test the waters. The Ravens need him more than he needs them. He would get top five money with the franchise tag if the Ravens go that route. If not some desperate team that thinks they are only a decent QB away from competing might overspend for him.
    What is this notion of teams having a "fallback option" at QB? Franchise QBs are so rare that despite dozens of them being drafted each year, there are realistically less than 20 of them in the NFL right now. There is NO team in the NFL that legitimately has 2 franchise QBs (And no, the 49ers do not, they don't even have 1 ACTUl franchise QB.)

    Teams that have no QB have to get one and it's NOT an easy process at all. Most of them are 1st round picks, a few of them are high-dollar FAs that are a good bit older. This isn't some sort of unique thing, this is the modern NFL.

    If the Ravens can't or won't lock up Flacco long-term, there's really no other option apart from mortgaging their future to get one in the draft a la Washington. Even then, there's absolutely no guarantee that draftee would be an upgrade on Flacco.





  2. #86

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Flacco's not going anywhere.

    If the Ravens let him go and he becomes an elite/near elite QB for some other team, leading them to a Super Bowl victory or 2--and especially if he consistently beats the Ravens when he plays us, then guess what happens to Harbs and maybe even Ozzie?

    Well, if you don't know, you can ask Josh McDaniels and Brian Xanders, they could tell you




  3. Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    What is this notion of teams having a "fallback option" at QB? Franchise QBs are so rare that despite dozens of them being drafted each year, there are realistically less than 20 of them in the NFL right now. There is NO team in the NFL that legitimately has 2 franchise QBs (And no, the 49ers do not, they don't even have 1 ACTUl franchise QB.)

    Teams that have no QB have to get one and it's NOT an easy process at all. Most of them are 1st round picks, a few of them are high-dollar FAs that are a good bit older. This isn't some sort of unique thing, this is the modern NFL.

    If the Ravens can't or won't lock up Flacco long-term, there's really no other option apart from mortgaging their future to get one in the draft a la Washington. Even then, there's absolutely no guarantee that draftee would be an upgrade on Flacco.
    Where did you read me say that we should have two franchise QBS? I said “a very few other teams" have an experienced backup. Did you hear about the game today? The Steelers had to play their second "experienced backup" because their first "experienced backup" was out. And here's a news flash for you: their 3rd string experienced backup beat us. Now for extra credit, here is a pop quiz: who is our third string QB? How many starts has he had? Too tough for you? How many pro starts has our 2nd string QB had? Beginning to see a thread of meaning here?




  4. Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    What is this notion of teams having a "fallback option" at QB? Franchise QBs are so rare that despite dozens of them being drafted each year, there are realistically less than 20 of them in the NFL right now. There is NO team in the NFL that legitimately has 2 franchise QBs (And no, the 49ers do not, they don't even have 1 ACTUl franchise QB.)

    Teams that have no QB have to get one and it's NOT an easy process at all. Most of them are 1st round picks, a few of them are high-dollar FAs that are a good bit older. This isn't some sort of unique thing, this is the modern NFL.

    If the Ravens can't or won't lock up Flacco long-term, there's really no other option apart from mortgaging their future to get one in the draft a la Washington. Even then, there's absolutely no guarantee that draftee would be an upgrade on Flacco.
    This isn't true at all. The Patriots drafted a Mallet, 49ers Kaepernick, Seattle drafted Russel Wilson, even the Broncos just drafted a QB in the 2nd round. Its standard practice in this league to draft a QB in 2-3 rounds and try to develop them. If nothing else, you have a very good trade chip to strengthen your roster elsewhere since QB's are so valuable.

    The Ravens can lock up Flacco but they really should have drafted someone in the past couple years to at least see what they could develop while Flacco matured.




  5. #89

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoonwalkJenkins View Post
    This isn't true at all. The Patriots drafted a Mallet, 49ers Kaepernick, Seattle drafted Russel Wilson, even the Broncos just drafted a QB in the 2nd round. Its standard practice in this league to draft a QB in 2-3 rounds and try to develop them. If nothing else, you have a very good trade chip to strengthen your roster elsewhere since QB's are so valuable.

    The Ravens can lock up Flacco but they really should have drafted someone in the past couple years to at least see what they could develop while Flacco matured.
    Eggsactly. But we have the brain trust running the show that thought Kyle Boller and Anthony Wright was the way to go. Winning a Superbowl with Trent Dilfer at QB was probably the worst thing that could ever happen to the Ravens. They somehow seem convinced they can still get by on the cheap with the guy who touches the ball on every offensive down.




  6. #90

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevlar View Post
    Eggsactly. But we have the brain trust running the show that thought Kyle Boller and Anthony Wright was the way to go. Winning a Superbowl with Trent Dilfer at QB was probably the worst thing that could ever happen to the Ravens. They somehow seem convinced they can still get by on the cheap with the guy who touches the ball on every offensive down.
    How dare you question The Teflon Man?




  7. #91

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post

    If the Ravens can't or won't lock up Flacco long-term, there's really no other option apart from mortgaging their future to get one in the draft a la Washington. Even then, there's absolutely no guarantee that draftee would be an upgrade on Flacco.
    There are obviously other options.

    Regardless of how good you think Flacco is, one option is to pay a guy who is only 75% as good as Flacco only 40-50% of what Flacco would cost and spend the difference on other positions. Regardless of whether you think Flacco is better than Alex Smith, the issue is whether he is worth twice as much as an Alex Smith, or an aging veteran (like McNair going 13-3) because that might be what Flacco demands.

    The thing about the "we won't let him walk" statement is that it ignores the possibility that Joe asks for too much. There obviously is and should be a line to be drawn in terms of what to pay him. People that say "we will definitely lock him up" don't really ever mention exactly what they mean. I assume they mean both sides will be "reasonable," but I am not so sure Flacco's side will. I think if it had been, a deal already would have been signed.

    So again, let's say Joe wants 6 years - $100M with $35M guaranteed? Yes or no? To me that is clearly not a "no brainer" decision. In fact, I could easily see myself passing on that, if it were up to me, depending on how we finish the year.




  8. Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoonwalkJenkins View Post
    This isn't true at all. The Patriots drafted a Mallet, 49ers Kaepernick, Seattle drafted Russel Wilson, even the Broncos just drafted a QB in the 2nd round. Its standard practice in this league to draft a QB in 2-3 rounds and try to develop them. If nothing else, you have a very good trade chip to strengthen your roster elsewhere since QB's are so valuable.

    The Ravens can lock up Flacco but they really should have drafted someone in the past couple years to at least see what they could develop while Flacco matured.
    Thanks for the details. Our FO is like our QB: good, but not great.




  9. #93

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    There are obviously other options.

    Regardless of how good you think Flacco is, one option is to pay a guy who is only 75% as good as Flacco only 30% of what Flacco would cost and spend the difference on other positions. Regardless of whether you think Flacco is better than Alex Smith, the issue is whether he is worth twice as much as an Alex Smith, or an aging veteran (like McNair going 13-3) because that might be what Flacco demands.

    The thing about the "we won't let him walk" statement is that it ignores the possibility that Joe asks for too much. There obviously is and should be a line to be drawn in terms of what to pay him. People that say "we will definitely lock him up" don't really ever mention exactly what they mean. I assume they mean both sides will be "reasonable," but I am not so sure Flacco's side will. I think if it had been, a deal already would have been signed.

    So again, let's say Joe wants 6 years - $100M with $35M guaranteed? Yes or no? To me that is clearly not a "no brainer" decision. In fact, I could easily see myself passing on that, if it were up to me, depending on how we finish the year.
    Its a trickle down effect... Is Ed Reed worth his current contract? Ray Lewis? Boldin? Oz is truly gonna have to make some franchise altering decisions. Will they be the right ones? Hmmm.....

    One thing I do know is you gotta hit on your 2nd & 3rd round picks more times than not now if you wanna be a SB contender. Those guys are cheap when it comes to the salary cap, and if they're good, they can take you over the top (ie. Texans). Ravens.... Mmmmm.. some goods hits and some bad misses of late.




  10. #94

    Why Joe's the problem

    He is in his 5th season, has WR targets with speed and size and a good RB who catch out of the backfeild, but they still look lethargic on offense. We blame Cam, but it's Joe who can change the play and read the defense. If the offense isnt working, it's his job to tell
    Cam "this isnt working, we need to change and I'm not running this play, or we will play at this tempo." But he doesn't. He isn't man enough to do so. It's HIS offense, his contract, he can tell Cam to take a flying leap if he chooses. I just don't see enough confidence or leadership in him to take over a struggling offense, his job.
    As Johnny U said ' If you cant tell your coach to go to hell, you won't be a NFL Qb"

    I'll never forget the game in the playoffs where Manning and the Colts where big favorites vs Pittsburgh and trailing big with a 4th and 8 and Dungy sent the punt team on in the 4th Q, and Manning motioned them off the feild, got the TD. Then set the Colts up later for game tying FG, but Vanderjagt missed it. That was leadership and you knew who was in charge. Joe does not remotely have that
    type of personality.




  11. #95

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by ravensnhokies View Post
    Its a trickle down effect... Is Ed Reed worth his current contract? Ray Lewis? Boldin? Oz is truly gonna have to make some franchise altering decisions. Will they be the right ones? Hmmm.....

    One thing I do know is you gotta hit on your 2nd & 3rd round picks more times than not now if you wanna be a SB contender. Those guys are cheap when it comes to the salary cap, and if they're good, they can take you over the top (ie. Texans). Ravens.... Mmmmm.. some goods hits and some bad misses of late.
    Well, Ray is a special case (team leader and coach on the field and legend), and we still let him shop himself around. Reed, I agree, is going to ask for more than he is worth. But we'll see how the Ravens handle it. I suspect they handle it the same way as they did Ray except maybe not even match the competing offers (expect hometown discount). Now Boldin....wouldn't surprise me at all if the team parts ways, and I mean next year, let alone in terms of 2014 free agency.

    But QB money is way bigger (gauranteed especially) and therefore is way more risky. There is also a more likely chance that some dumb team will just blatantly overpay for a QB, even if it is foolish.

    I agree about the draft and the importance of keeping the quality(performance)-to-price ratio high. It is crucial.




  12. #96
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    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    There are obviously other options.

    Regardless of how good you think Flacco is, one option is to pay a guy who is only 75% as good as Flacco only 40-50% of what Flacco would cost and spend the difference on other positions. Regardless of whether you think Flacco is better than Alex Smith, the issue is whether he is worth twice as much as an Alex Smith, or an aging veteran (like McNair going 13-3) because that might be what Flacco demands.

    The thing about the "we won't let him walk" statement is that it ignores the possibility that Joe asks for too much. There obviously is and should be a line to be drawn in terms of what to pay him. People that say "we will definitely lock him up" don't really ever mention exactly what they mean. I assume they mean both sides will be "reasonable," but I am not so sure Flacco's side will. I think if it had been, a deal already would have been signed.

    So again, let's say Joe wants 6 years - $100M with $35M guaranteed? Yes or no? To me that is clearly not a "no brainer" decision. In fact, I could easily see myself passing on that, if it were up to me, depending on how we finish the year.
    I like this line of thought.

    It really amazes me what Jim Harbaugh has accomplished with that team. He took what everybody thought was a first round bust and turned him into a dependable and serviceable, if somewhat limited, QB. I'd take that system here in a heartbeat.

    With Flacco... if the Ravens keep Cam, is there anyone who thinks we'll ever get much better than what we've gotten? If they get rid of Cam, are we SURE Flacco will be better? Sure enough to spend a sizable percentage of the cap on it?

    Let's see how the season ends up. This team may have had a fire lit under it today, or it may crumble, or something in between. All I know is that road Joe inexplicably showed up at M&T today, and I hope I don't see that again. Must be karma for the last couple of acceptably passable road games...




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