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  1. #193

    Re: What is Joe worth?



    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    Torrey Smith was open at least 4 times downfield. One he dropped, three or more he had to turn into a DB to save Flacco an INT. He also was open when Flacco sailed one over his head allowing the defender to undercut his legs and make him land on his shoulder (one of several back foot floaters in the game).

    As certain as there will be criticism of Flacco after a loss (because we rarely if ever lose when he plays remotely well, unlike a lot of other QBs in the league), there will be someone insinuating that if not for "drops" (always exaggerated and also something that occurs across the league), Flacco would have looked great.

    Not many people are saying the defense played well. They didn't. But the "defense" isn't up for a potentially crippling contract after the season. There is not wide-ranging disagreement regarding the quality of the "defense." The defense, while worse than normal this year, is not an enigma.

    Almost everyone realizes that the defense could have won the game with better play. But a lot of people are resistant to admitting that Flacco could have won the game with better play. Hence the heated discussions.

    The QB = magnified. Inconsistent, puzzling QB (performances) = more magnified. Said QB entering FA = epic magnification.
    It's always "tit for tat" with you. The fact that Smith was open on one play doesn't mitigate his dropping a ball on another play; football games aren't like equations that have to balance themselves out. I'm not disputing that Flacco had a bad game, I'm only pointing out the magnitude of response is vastly different between Flacco and everyone else.

    And yeah, there's no doubt that Flacco is due for more criticism as a result of his being the QB and an impending FA, but there is literally NO discussion OTHER THAN Flacco and the offense occurring at this time, and the defense has at least one big name player set to hit FA who had a very uneven night last night--Ed Reed.

    And in closing, you are very prone to strawman arguments. There is literally NO ONE HERE "resistant to admitting that Flacco could have won the game with better play." If he hit on one of those deep balls he missed the game could have been very different. But again, football games aren't really played like that. If Torrey Smith catches the sure TD Flacco might not have NEEDED to play better... and vice-versa, ad infinitum...




  2. #194
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    Re: How has Caldwell benefited Flacco?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Merged the five separate Flacco threads into one ....

    Carry on ....
    If you did the same with every "Cam" thread there would only be 2 threads on the board
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  3. #195

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    It's always "tit for tat" with you.
    Huh? Are you implying people shouldn't offer counterpoints to your points? Is that what you are going for with the unnecessary CAPSLOCK usage?


    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    The fact that Smith was open on one play doesn't mitigate his dropping a ball on another play; football games aren't like equations that have to balance themselves out.
    Huh? No one said anything about balancing something out. I didn't say Smith's drop should be subtracted from Flacco's three horrible deep throws, leaving Smith blameless and Flacco being "net-blamed" for 2 horrible throws. So you are simply confused here.

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    I'm not disputing that Flacco had a bad game, I'm only pointing out the magnitude of response is vastly different between Flacco and everyone else.
    You did not "only" point that out, or I would have responded "only" with my last paragraph about the magnitude. You offered the standard and predictable excuses in your post complaining about the standard and predictable criticisms after poor play.

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    And yeah, there's no doubt that Flacco is due for more criticism as a result of his being the QB and an impending FA, but there is literally NO discussion OTHER THAN Flacco and the offense occurring at this time, and the defense has at least one big name player set to hit FA who had a very uneven night last night--Ed Reed.
    This is because, as I said, there is little disagreement about Reed (combined with the already-stipulated fact that QB is more important). Discussions are prolonged when people are arguing. When everyone thinks the same thing then the thread gets a few 's and then dies.

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    And in closing, you are very prone to strawman arguments. There is literally NO ONE HERE "resistant to admitting that Flacco could have won the game with better play." If he hit on one of those deep balls he missed the game could have been very different. But again, football games aren't really played like that. If Torrey Smith catches the sure TD Flacco might not have NEEDED to play better... and vice-versa, ad infinitum...
    I am not prone to strawman arguments at all. You are certainly prone to needless CAPSLOCK usage in an attempt to argue your points. There is "no one resistant to admitting Flacco could have won the game," you say right before saying that "football games aren't played like that" in dismissing the thing you are claiming everyone will (but don't) admit.

    Football games are played exacty like that. When your QB plays a game that poorly you don't often win (though we win more than most in these cases). When you are facing Charlie Batch (or Sanchez or Blaine Gabbert, etc) then the game becomes winnable with decent play by the rest of the team. We didn't get enough of either.

    Remember you started this with a post implying people are being unreasonable ("but COME ON, people. Seriously") and predictable in criticizing Flacco. I responded to say that it isn't unreasonable and the excuse-making is as predictable. My points still stand. They weren't very enlightening points, admittedly, but they were perfectly appropriate considering what they were addressing.
    Last edited by Haloti92; 12-03-2012 at 04:33 PM.




  4. #196
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    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    Remember you started this with a post implying people are being unreasonable ("but COME ON, people. Seriously") and predictable in criticizing Flacco. I responded to say that it isn't unreasonable and the excuse-making is as predictable. My points still stand. They weren't very enlightening points, admittedly, but they were perfectly appropriate considering what they were addressing.
    About 80 % of this board make excuses up for Flacco ever day, then claim that everyone is against him after a loss after blaming every single person around Flacco, and want to believe "what could be" if we had another OC. I think a lot of that may be true, he would most likely look a lot better in a Sean Payton lead offense, but just how good may never be revealed, but I doubt he'd be as good as someone like Drew Brees as I'm sure a lot of people around here would like to believe.

    Either way, Flacco may be the biggest mystery in the NFL right now.




  5. #197
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    Re: What is Joe worth?

    flacco need to get his shit together too but his caoches aint doing a damn thing to help him, right now harbaugh need to pull his fuck head out of his ass and put Mckinney back at LT, Oher back to RT, KO at gaurd, honeslty they need to bench birks ass too because he's laying on his fucking back every play. Since Cam aint going no where soon atleast give this Offense a fighting chance.




  6. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    Torrey Smith was open at least 4 times downfield. One he dropped, three or more he had to turn into a DB to save Flacco an INT. He also was open when Flacco sailed one over his head allowing the defender to undercut his legs and make him land on his shoulder (one of several back foot floaters in the game).
    One downfield pass was a PI call.

    And the one that sailed over Torrey's head happened because Torrey stopped his route cold and turned around to look for the ball. And he was double covered and not wide open. none of us were sure why Torrey stopped like that, but if he kept running he would have had a play on the ball.

    Sorry to correct on a couple of these, but they happened on our side of the field where my seats are.



    Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2




  7. #199

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    I just can't help but comment on how after ANY loss, ANY loss, much less an ugly WIN, you can REST ASSURED there will be a Flacco thread, it will have dozens and dozens of posts, and a lot of them will be about how excited a lot of fans are to see Flacco screw up.

    The defense gives up just shy of 300 yards to Charlie freaking Batch, including 10 unanswered points sandwiched around halftime, 2 for 2 TDs in the red zone, and a 6 minute drive to ice the game. They LITERALLY DON'T COVER ANYBODY in the middle of the field. Yet no thread.

    Something like 7 dropped passes altogether from the other skill position players... nobody open downfield literally the WHOLE GAME... and yet no thread.

    I understand he's the QB and his mistakes are magnified, but COME ON, people. Seriously.






  8. #200

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    Torrey Smith was open at least 4 times downfield. One he dropped, three or more he had to turn into a DB to save Flacco an INT. He also was open when Flacco sailed one over his head allowing the defender to undercut his legs and make him land on his shoulder (one of several back foot floaters in the game)..
    This is just wrong, absolutely wrong. The first pass was in Torrey's hands and he dropped it, Taylor was right on him and he was never wide open, the pass may have been slighty underthrown but it was very catachable. The second pass in question would actually be the one over his head on an out, that was a bad pass. The third was the underthrow to the endzone and was the only one where he had to play pass defender. The fourth one, if you watch the play, Smith looks at the defender covering him and then looks for the ball, even Simms thought he had lost the ball that fell to his right just out of reach. if he had been looking for the ball and not at the back, he likely would have adjusted and caught it. The fifth one he dropped in the endzone.

    That tells me that he is responsible for two drops and one mis read of the ball, he did not have to prevent 3 INTs as those balls were not close to being picked. Joe threw a few bad passes but please don't make stuff up just to suppoprt that he played badly. Some of you really need to get your eyes checked I think.




  9. #201
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    Re: What is Joe worth?

    anyone see Jaw's segment on MNF pregame? He showed how Charlie Batch used his legs to extend plays over and over, giving the receivers time to get open. Flacco stood like a statue waiting for his receivers to get open.

    He's going to have to use his legs to extend plays or otherwise we'll get more of the same
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  10. #202

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by RavenMan View Post
    This is just wrong, absolutely wrong. The first pass was in Torrey's hands and he dropped it, Taylor was right on him and he was never wide open, the pass may have been slighty underthrown but it was very catachable. The second pass in question would actually be the one over his head on an out, that was a bad pass. The third was the underthrow to the endzone and was the only one where he had to play pass defender. The fourth one, if you watch the play, Smith looks at the defender covering him and then looks for the ball, even Simms thought he had lost the ball that fell to his right just out of reach. if he had been looking for the ball and not at the back, he likely would have adjusted and caught it. The fifth one he dropped in the endzone.

    That tells me that he is responsible for two drops and one mis read of the ball, he did not have to prevent 3 INTs as those balls were not close to being picked. Joe threw a few bad passes but please don't make stuff up just to suppoprt that he played badly. Some of you really need to get your eyes checked I think.

    The first pass, Smith had two full steps on Taylor and was angling toward the post. Flacco underthrew it a bit, but more importantly he threw it so that Smith had to straighten out his route instead of leading him away from Taylor. It allowed Taylor to close the distance and defend the play. Whether someone "could have caught" the ball has nothing to do with whether it was good throw. Taylor "could have caught" the ball for an INT as well, and likely would have if Smith didn't adjust. And there was simply no need for total accuracy as long as it was thrown to the middle of the field, Smith was ahead and could have run under it.

    The second pass was bad.

    I am not sure which was the interference call but that was also a dubious throw, though it didn't matter

    The fourth, I will need to watch the play, only saw it at the stadium live.

    The fifth was drop.

    No, that tells me he is responsible for one drop, where drop is defined as an error, not simply a failure to make a huge play.

    He had to prevent two, maybe three INTs or maybe I am lumping in a deep ball to Jones or Boldin to get to three, from memory. I will need to re-watch the game to check.

    When you throw a ball where the defender and the WR have equal chance of catching it then I consider an incomplete result a pass defense for the WR. There were several in this category.

    Joe threw more than a "few" bad passes, please don't make stuff up just to defend him; he threw more bad passes than good ones if you subtract the checkdowns. Yes, I often come to the same conclusion regarding people's eyesight. It is preconceived bias affecting the vision, I assume. Of course, I have no preconceived bias.
    Last edited by Haloti92; 12-03-2012 at 08:19 PM.




  11. #203

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle View Post
    anyone see Jaw's segment on MNF pregame? He showed how Charlie Batch used his legs to extend plays over and over, giving the receivers time to get open. Flacco stood like a statue waiting for his receivers to get open.

    He's going to have to use his legs to extend plays or otherwise we'll get more of the same
    Yeah, and I think he used to do this better earlier in his career. I am not even talking about running or rolling out, but sliding or stepping up in the pocket for the extra second. I think it may have to do with shell-shock. It definitely gets worse when the game is one where every third pass play is a quickly deteriorating pocket. It seems Joe starts to assume that will be the case on every play, which I suppose is natural, but it doesn't help on the plays where the pocket holds up for a little while before slowly collapsing (especially from the edges).




  12. #204
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    Re: The "Flacco Thread" (Merged from 5 threads)

    Quote Originally Posted by StingerNLG View Post
    One downfield pass was a PI call.

    And the one that sailed over Torrey's head happened because Torrey stopped his route cold and turned around to look for the ball. And he was double covered and not wide open. none of us were sure why Torrey stopped like that, but if he kept running he would have had a play on the ball.

    Sorry to correct on a couple of these, but they happened on our side of the field where my seats are.



    Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
    Are you talking about the play where the defender took Torrey's legs out from under him? If so that was clearly a comeback route by Torrey. You can tell by the way both Torrey and the defender broke on the ball. Just a terrible throw by Flacco. They talked about this on Ravens Wrap-up on WBAL.

    Also Joe missed Torrey twice deep down the field. Torrey had a step on the defender both times. Joe just underthrew the ball.

    His mechanics were terrible yesterday. Probably one of the worst games(mechanics wise) Joe has ever had. He threw off his back foot, didn't step into his throws, and didn't square his shoulders. Those issues resulted in the overthrows and under throws.




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