The "Flacco Thread" (Merged from 5 threads)

[RavensQB]

I too had a great deal of faith in Joe but he has not taken the leadership role that would be expected of an elite QB. Franchise him and then trade for a 1st round pick if possible but Joe is not going to lead this team to the Super Bowl. He just does not have "it".

Hard to do that when the personel that needs to be on the field is removed at KEY TIMES.

I hate CAM alot... But Harbs contiunes to let it happen. Ozzie continues to let it happen, And last but not least so does Biscuit. You can only blame one thing for so long. But at some point you have to look at WHO is in charge.

Coaching lost this last game. TOP to Bottom!!!!!!

[JCroUSAF]

Give me a new offensive coordinator and system. Then give me a quality offensive line. Then give me a rebuilt defense. And if the inconsistencies are still then well "talk" about getting a new qb. This thread is a joke, ravens fans are spoiled, we've been to the playoffs the last 4 years and afc championship game twice. If you all think this is all on joe you aren't very smart. Give me any oc that knows how to make adjustments. Shit ill take a 13 yr old madden genius over what we have.

[JCroUSAF]

Hard to do that when the personel that needs to be on the field is removed at KEY TIMES.

I hate CAM alot... But Harbs contiunes to let it happen. Ozzie continues to let it happen, And last but not least so does Biscuit. You can only blame one thing for so long. But at some point you have to look at WHO is in charge.

Coaching lost this last game. TOP to Bottom!!!!!!

I have defended harbaugh but you are correct this is rediculous. We as ravens fans have been taught to never doubt Ozzie, but this year not enough was done to keep quality talent on the team. Its not ozzies fault our draft picks the last couple years have been busts.why harbaugh isn't correcting Cameron makes me think th problem is harbaugh?

[RavenScallywag]

I'm no longer opposed to considering a change at QB, but it IS a risk...

Everyone likes to talk about getting an elite QB, like it's something easy to do. Let's run down the starters of the other 31 NFL teams:

Bills: Fitzpatrick, 7TH ROUND. Graded as an average starter
Dolphins: Tannehill, 1ST ROUND, 8TH PICK. Too early to tell
Patriots: Brady, 6TH ROUND. Elite
Jets: Mess. Sanchez is 1ST ROUND, 5TH PICK. Obviously not doing well, as he's being benched.
Broncos: P. Manning, 1ST ROUND, 1ST PICK. Elite
Chargers: P. Rivers, 1ST ROUND, 4TH PICK. Graded as great (debatable).
Chiefs: Brady Quinn, 1ST ROUND, 22ND PICK. Former bust, now seems to be below average.
Raiders: Carson Palmer, 1ST ROUND, 1ST PICK. Graded as above average.
Browns: Brandon Weeden, 1ST ROUND, 22ND PICK. Too early to tell
Bengals: Andy Dalton, 2ND ROUND, 3RD PICK. Graded as above average.
Steelers: Ben Roethlisberger, 1ST ROUND, 11TH PICK. Elite to great QB
Colts: Andrew Luck, 1ST ROUND, 1ST PICK. Too early to tell, but no worse than above average.
Jaguars: Chad Henne, 2ND ROUND, late pick. Former bust, now below average.
Texans: Matt Schaub, 3RD ROUND. Graded as great QB
Titans: Jake Locker, 1ST ROUND, 8TH PICK. Too early to tell, but about average right now.

That's just the AFC, but let's look at some trends here...8 of 16 teams have a starter picked in the FIRST TWELVE PICKS of their draft. If you focus on just the "elite or great QB" category, you've got Brady, BR, Schaub, Rivers?, maybe Luck. 5/16 teams, and 3 of those are top 12 picks.

My long winded point here is to show that:

1. If you want a shot at the can't miss QB prospects, you have to have an ABYSMAL season. And as we saw in 2008, that may not be enough, because you also have to be prepared to mortgage future draft picks to maneuver, ala Redskins this year for RG3.
2. Even if you take a QB in top 10, that's no guarantee of success.
3. Great QBs are not falling off trees. Look at a team like the Redskins, who went about 20 some years between finding great franchise QBs.

So, if you want to dump Joe and start over, okay. But, you better be prepared to live with a couple more Kyle Bollers and Anthony Wrights, because it's very rare to hit on a great QB if you pick later in the rounds. I had this conversation with a coworker who just said "Tom Brady wasn't a 1st round pick!". Yeah, and how many 6th round picks are showing up in the Hall of Fame elite category?

If you want to dump Joe to get an elite QB, you might as well look at the college prospects for that "can't miss" type QB, then tank your season before they come into the draft so that you can position to take them.

[RavenScallywag]

Also should be noted, Gabbert of the Jags was 1st round 10th pick before being injured/benched for Henne.

[Random Thoughts]

Give me a new offensive coordinator and system. Then give me a quality offensive line. Then give me a rebuilt defense. And if the inconsistencies are still then well "talk" about getting a new qb. This thread is a joke, ravens fans are spoiled, we've been to the playoffs the last 4 years and afc championship game twice. If you all think this is all on joe you aren't very smart. Give me any oc that knows how to make adjustments. Shit ill take a 13 yr old madden genius over what we have.

LMFAO, your last comment was funny as shit.

Anyway...
In your case, any quarterback should be able to do well in that system. If the qb does not flourish in that system, then that person should consider another line of work.

To be fair, Joe brought this on him with his repeated claim that he is a top 5 quarterback. Additionally, he essentially said that he wanted the fate of the game to be in his hand. His play this season, obviously, has not backed that up.

Also, Joe made his shares of mistakes. Let's take last Sunday as an example. On a play action, he could've run for a first down or beyond, but he chose to launch a low percentage bomb across his body. Another, he threw an ill advised interception where he could have run and slid. Another, he had to be able to sense the rush on the sack and strip.

Throughout the season, I havent seen him being able to step up that pocket. Granted that our interior line has not been great, but there were times when there was space to step up, such as the play where he overthrew Torrey Smith that could have seriously injured Smith.

[Ravenswintitle]

last year was the time to grab a young QB because there were several. This year the draft has almost nothing. And there are a lot of teams who need help.

I doubt the Ravens would want to change QBs right now but even if they do it would be very difficult right now

[Kevlar]

I like Joe. I think he is a solid QB. The only thing bad about Joe is that people want to try and say he is elite. He ain't. He is pretty good though. Just like Cutler, Vick, Palmer, etc. Nothing wrong with a mid-tier QB. But yes, you should have a capable backup if you don't have a star. You should always be looking for the next Favre, Brees, Brady...which Tyrod Taylor ain't!

[Random Thoughts]

last year was the time to grab a young QB because there were several. This year the draft has almost nothing. And there are a lot of teams who need help.

I doubt the Ravens would want to change QBs right now but even if they do it would be very difficult right now

That is true; however, I think there might be a qb in this year class. I do not know, but we will know in coming weeks.

Anyway, I am trying to see what does the Ravens see in Troy Smith-- I meant Tyrod Taylor. Regardless, I hope we pick up a qb in the next draft class.

[lobachevsky]

Joe is not the problem... Go look at his College videos..... That is all

I'm not in the Flacco-bashers' camp, but I have to point out that that is an utterly specious argument. When folks are wondering if Joe is the second coming of Jeff George, it's pretty clear that they're not questioning his physical abilities but the potential to take his game to a higher (or at least more consistent) level. Flacco's performance against the defenses of football powerhouses like William & Mary, West Chester, Monmouth, New Hampshire, Richmond, & Villanova (the last 3 of which he lost to in his senior year) may be a testament to his arm strength but says next to nothing about his ability to recognize NFL-level defenses & find & exploit their weaknesses--which I don't think anyone can deny has been Maddeningly inconsistent throughout his pro career.

[NC Raven]

Joe IS good enough to win a SB. If Lee Evans had caught that perfectly thrown pass....

His main problem is CAM CAMERON. Cam knows offense, as would any primate who you sit in a dark room for thousands of hours with game film. He has knowledge, but he isn't all that smart. Just like you could train a machine to play poker, it couldn't have the guile to out wit opponents in real time with high stakes. THAT is where Cam fails Joe. He makes good game plans, sometimes, but can't adjust at all. The play calls are mind boggling at times and they set Joe up for failure. No doubt in my mind that if you give him a Sean Payton or Josh McDaniels, or Tom Clements, you would see a much better player. I already like the improvements he's shown from the influence of Caldwell, and hope Caldwell stays around (or God help us, takes over as OC from Cam next year....)

That said, Joe isn't perfect and has his drawbacks. I'd put him in a category more like Eli Mannning -- Eli makes some horrible decisions and bad throws, needs his WRs to make huge, crazy one on one plays to bail him out far too often, and needs a LOT of weapons to be successful. And even then he still has total clunker games. But you can win with Eli. You can also win with Joe.

Odds are not good of finding a better QB any time soon, based on where we draft.

Nobody in this upcoming draft class is as good as Joe. Geno Smith and Matt Barkely are the only potential starters in the group and neither IMHO has the potential to reach the levels Joe has already reached. After that in the next couple years there's what, Tyler Bray? Tahj Boyd at 6'1? Teddy Bridgewater? The current NCAA QB crop is poor.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

I can't stand Cam's offensive philosophy and like everybody else, I want him gone. I do think he is probably holding Joe back to a degree.

However, I also am not obsolving Joe here...he does seem to have plateued and it's more than simply saying "nobody is open" or "look at the drops". He has drops, but someone posted here that as of 2 weeks ago, we had something like the 3rd fewest drops in the league...every single QB has to deal with quite a few drops...and it seems like people completely ignored that because they keep bringing up drops as a key reason why he is struggling.

Just mechanically, I don't see the improvement I wanted to see with things like pocket awareness...not stepping into his throws. He rarely uses his feet to step up, or away from pressure. If he feels pressure, he just runs out of the pocket. Too often his passes sail high, which is a result of poor mechanics. He also doesn't do a very good job of protecting the ball in the pocket.

In all, I agree that if you have a very good team around him, he can do it...like I have said numerous times, Matt Schaub is the comparison and where I think his max is. Can be very good at times, but is not capable of carrying a team with big holes like the elite guys.

[Ravens27Girl]

I don't care what QB you bring in, they will not thrive under Cam's offensive system. Period. Until Cam is gone, we will not truly know if Joe is as good as he gets. Something tells me without Cam, Flacco will begin progressing. He CAN be what we need to get us to the big dance (a la the AFCCG last year) but Ozzie needs to be certain he has armed him with the tools and weapons he needs to be effective. If he has that and still can't get to the next level, then we should start looking for another QB.

[bmorecareful]

It's not unreasonable to be disillusioned with Joe. IF he has plateaued, IF he continues to have 8 good games and 8 bad games a year, IF this is the best we're ever going to get, then he is not a QB you want long-term. I've defended Flacco a lot on this board because perspective easily gets lost and a lot of people have an overly simplistic view of the way football games work. But there's no getting around it--if this is what Flacco is, then we have a major problem.

I don't believe this is what Flacco is and I have evidence to support it. When Flacco has been put into position to succeed, he has looked like one of the best QBs in the league. How can we watch this guy carve teams up out of the no-huddle, hit 6 or 7 passes in a row to the middle of the field, and just generally have complete mastery of the offense--and then the next game, go ice cold throwing sideline outs and poorly-timed deep balls? How can we be content with a coaching staff that allows that to happen? I doubt Joe will ever be as consistently excellent as guys like Manning, Brady, and Rodgers, but all of them went through slumps this year. All of them air mail some balls, take some sacks, and generally look terrible when they're uncomfortable. The difference is, when those QBs start getting uncomfortable and not playing at their best, their coaches recognize that the team's entire fate revolves around fixing that problem, and more often than not they fix it.

This team has NEVER legitimately made an effort to go all in on Joe Flacco and TREAT him like an elite quarterback... maybe that's because he's not one, but guys don't become elite overnight. They need support. New England has meticulously cultivated their OL over the past 10 years. New Orleans is continually bringing in offensive talent. Green Bay has the deepest WR corps in the league. Manning's teams have consistently prioritized surrounding him with talent #1. And most of all, ALL of those teams were coached first and foremost to get their QB comfortable and playing to his strengths.

Yes, the Ravens have drafted offensive talent, but have they really gone all out? The only real offensive free agent they signed was Anquan Boldin, who was an elite WR in Arizona but totally underwhelming here in Baltimore, partly because he is not used correctly. They have Ray Rice but they refuse to build game plans that feature him in such a way as to open the passing game up for Flacco. They refuse to go no-huddle or use the middle of the field. They refuse to adjust mid-game when Flacco's confidence is being eroded by DBs sitting on the out routes and teams pressuring him right up the middle.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Before you, me, and the Ravens REALLY give up on Joe Flacco, franchise him for one more year and make an ACTUAL EFFORT to build this team around him. Bring in a new offensive coaching staff. Try to develop some young talent, spend some draft picks on offense if necessary! Bring in a free agent or two. And if Flacco flops, fine--you'll have pieces on offense to bring in a new QB and try to get HIM comfortable and playing at his best.

[lobachevsky]

Too often his passes sail high, which is a result of poor mechanics.

A pass thrown too high on a sideline pattern falls harmlessly out of bounds. A pass thrown too high in the middle of the field has PICK ME written all over it. Y'think there maybe might be a reason Cam doesn't call routes over the middle?

[Ravens27Girl]

A pass thrown too high on a sideline pattern falls harmlessly out of bounds. A pass thrown too high in the middle of the field has PICK ME written all over it. Y'think there maybe might be a reason Cam doesn't call routes over the middle?

Passes thrown too high on a consistent basis is on Caldwell to work with Joe on. What do we pay this man for? However, this does not justify or excuse Cam from not playing the middle of the field. That's on Cam, not Flacco.

[wickedsolo]

A pass thrown too high on a sideline pattern falls harmlessly out of bounds. A pass thrown too high in the middle of the field has PICK ME written all over it. Y'think there maybe might be a reason Cam doesn't call routes over the middle?

Several of those high-sailing passes to the sideline are also because Flacco has no choice but to try and put it in a position where a Raven receiver might have a shot at it.

Defenders all season have been undercutting a lot of those sideline routes. If Flacco were to NOT throw it high, it would almost surely be a pick.

[Terpsfan82]

I think Flacco's problems are an indictment of Harbaugh. Championship teams have symbiotic relationships that exist between HC and quarterback, from Walsh/Montana to Parcells/Simms to even Ditka/McMahon. Modern day you can name Belichek/Brady, Mccarthy/Rodgers and even Tomlin/Roethlisberger. At some point, the Head Coach has to entrust his franchise quarterback to make a play and win a game. Not only that, the entire team has to know that the quarterback is the man, and that his HC is behind him. Not some coordinator. I'm waiting for that day when Flacco changes a play that Cam calls, comes to sidelines, gets reprimanded by him and says "fuck you!" in front of the whole team. But that day will never come, because Harbaugh would never support him. He still thinks its all about the coaches. If I'm Flacco, I'm out.

[pslholder96]

I'm also waiting for Joe to step up his game but it's hard for him to do that in a system that takes away that step. Part of me is wishing Joe could just take on a "screw this and I'm taking over mentality" and elevate his game in spite of Cam looking over his shoulder. Wishful thinking on my part. Joe has certainly had an up and down season. Mechanically he can make all the throws but for some odd reason I think his deep throws down the middle of the field have a little too much air in them. That's probably just my "eye" test.
While I hope we finish strong I'm anxious to see how life without Cam turns out for Joe. He's not being put in a position to succeed so his margin for error is very minute.

[Justlovemybirds]

Chris Collingsworth pointed out in the first Ravens/Steelers game how Steelers had Ike Taylor playing over the top of Torrey and having Ryan Clark undercut the route, next game against San Diego they did the exact same thing, Balt/Pitt II? Pitt drop the LB's to undercut those routes.

3 games in a row, 3 similar game-plans for stopping the sideline attack, 1 game (SD) where they decided to use the middle of the field when they were forced to.