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  1. #253
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    Re: I'm losing my faith in Joe Flacco



    I don't care what QB you bring in, they will not thrive under Cam's offensive system. Period. Until Cam is gone, we will not truly know if Joe is as good as he gets. Something tells me without Cam, Flacco will begin progressing. He CAN be what we need to get us to the big dance (a la the AFCCG last year) but Ozzie needs to be certain he has armed him with the tools and weapons he needs to be effective. If he has that and still can't get to the next level, then we should start looking for another QB.





  2. #254

    Re: I'm losing my faith in Joe Flacco

    It's not unreasonable to be disillusioned with Joe. IF he has plateaued, IF he continues to have 8 good games and 8 bad games a year, IF this is the best we're ever going to get, then he is not a QB you want long-term. I've defended Flacco a lot on this board because perspective easily gets lost and a lot of people have an overly simplistic view of the way football games work. But there's no getting around it--if this is what Flacco is, then we have a major problem.

    I don't believe this is what Flacco is and I have evidence to support it. When Flacco has been put into position to succeed, he has looked like one of the best QBs in the league. How can we watch this guy carve teams up out of the no-huddle, hit 6 or 7 passes in a row to the middle of the field, and just generally have complete mastery of the offense--and then the next game, go ice cold throwing sideline outs and poorly-timed deep balls? How can we be content with a coaching staff that allows that to happen? I doubt Joe will ever be as consistently excellent as guys like Manning, Brady, and Rodgers, but all of them went through slumps this year. All of them air mail some balls, take some sacks, and generally look terrible when they're uncomfortable. The difference is, when those QBs start getting uncomfortable and not playing at their best, their coaches recognize that the team's entire fate revolves around fixing that problem, and more often than not they fix it.

    This team has NEVER legitimately made an effort to go all in on Joe Flacco and TREAT him like an elite quarterback... maybe that's because he's not one, but guys don't become elite overnight. They need support. New England has meticulously cultivated their OL over the past 10 years. New Orleans is continually bringing in offensive talent. Green Bay has the deepest WR corps in the league. Manning's teams have consistently prioritized surrounding him with talent #1. And most of all, ALL of those teams were coached first and foremost to get their QB comfortable and playing to his strengths.

    Yes, the Ravens have drafted offensive talent, but have they really gone all out? The only real offensive free agent they signed was Anquan Boldin, who was an elite WR in Arizona but totally underwhelming here in Baltimore, partly because he is not used correctly. They have Ray Rice but they refuse to build game plans that feature him in such a way as to open the passing game up for Flacco. They refuse to go no-huddle or use the middle of the field. They refuse to adjust mid-game when Flacco's confidence is being eroded by DBs sitting on the out routes and teams pressuring him right up the middle.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. Before you, me, and the Ravens REALLY give up on Joe Flacco, franchise him for one more year and make an ACTUAL EFFORT to build this team around him. Bring in a new offensive coaching staff. Try to develop some young talent, spend some draft picks on offense if necessary! Bring in a free agent or two. And if Flacco flops, fine--you'll have pieces on offense to bring in a new QB and try to get HIM comfortable and playing at his best.




  3. #255
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    Re: I'm losing my faith in Joe Flacco

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    Too often his passes sail high, which is a result of poor mechanics.
    A pass thrown too high on a sideline pattern falls harmlessly out of bounds. A pass thrown too high in the middle of the field has PICK ME written all over it. Y'think there maybe might be a reason Cam doesn't call routes over the middle?




  4. #256
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    Re: I'm losing my faith in Joe Flacco

    Quote Originally Posted by lobachevsky View Post
    A pass thrown too high on a sideline pattern falls harmlessly out of bounds. A pass thrown too high in the middle of the field has PICK ME written all over it. Y'think there maybe might be a reason Cam doesn't call routes over the middle?
    Passes thrown too high on a consistent basis is on Caldwell to work with Joe on. What do we pay this man for? However, this does not justify or excuse Cam from not playing the middle of the field. That's on Cam, not Flacco.




  5. #257
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    Re: I'm losing my faith in Joe Flacco

    Quote Originally Posted by lobachevsky View Post
    A pass thrown too high on a sideline pattern falls harmlessly out of bounds. A pass thrown too high in the middle of the field has PICK ME written all over it. Y'think there maybe might be a reason Cam doesn't call routes over the middle?
    Several of those high-sailing passes to the sideline are also because Flacco has no choice but to try and put it in a position where a Raven receiver might have a shot at it.

    Defenders all season have been undercutting a lot of those sideline routes. If Flacco were to NOT throw it high, it would almost surely be a pick.
    Milk is for babies. When you grow up, you have to drink beer.

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  6. #258
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    Re: I'm losing my faith in Joe Flacco

    I think Flacco's problems are an indictment of Harbaugh. Championship teams have symbiotic relationships that exist between HC and quarterback, from Walsh/Montana to Parcells/Simms to even Ditka/McMahon. Modern day you can name Belichek/Brady, Mccarthy/Rodgers and even Tomlin/Roethlisberger. At some point, the Head Coach has to entrust his franchise quarterback to make a play and win a game. Not only that, the entire team has to know that the quarterback is the man, and that his HC is behind him. Not some coordinator. I'm waiting for that day when Flacco changes a play that Cam calls, comes to sidelines, gets reprimanded by him and says "fuck you!" in front of the whole team. But that day will never come, because Harbaugh would never support him. He still thinks its all about the coaches. If I'm Flacco, I'm out.




  7. #259

    Re: I'm losing my faith in Joe Flacco

    I'm also waiting for Joe to step up his game but it's hard for him to do that in a system that takes away that step. Part of me is wishing Joe could just take on a "screw this and I'm taking over mentality" and elevate his game in spite of Cam looking over his shoulder. Wishful thinking on my part. Joe has certainly had an up and down season. Mechanically he can make all the throws but for some odd reason I think his deep throws down the middle of the field have a little too much air in them. That's probably just my "eye" test.
    While I hope we finish strong I'm anxious to see how life without Cam turns out for Joe. He's not being put in a position to succeed so his margin for error is very minute.




  8. #260

    Re: I'm losing my faith in Joe Flacco

    Chris Collingsworth pointed out in the first Ravens/Steelers game how Steelers had Ike Taylor playing over the top of Torrey and having Ryan Clark undercut the route, next game against San Diego they did the exact same thing, Balt/Pitt II? Pitt drop the LB's to undercut those routes.

    3 games in a row, 3 similar game-plans for stopping the sideline attack, 1 game (SD) where they decided to use the middle of the field when they were forced to.




  9. #261

    Re: I'm losing my faith in Joe Flacco

    Look at Joe in 2010. He had a very good year with 25 TD/10 INT and a QBR in the low 90s. 4 of the 5 receivers that he used most that year (Stallworth, Mason, Housh, Heap) are out of the league, so I think it's a safe assessment that his progress was genuine and not a byproduct of having extreme talent around him.

    That was the Jim Zorn year though, where he had a buffer between him and our idiot O.C. I think a lot of our expectations were based on that year, where Joe was given a support structure more similar to what is given to other teams. Since Zorn was ridiculously fired, Joe has played okay, but is definitely more similar to a middle-of-the-pack QB than a top 6-8 guy.

    When you look at it in this llight, it does make you wonder how much of his lack of progress you can really blame on him. We have tried to draft pieces to help him, yet haven't given him the one thing that any QB needs to grow...competent coaching. What does it say about Harbaugh that Flacco showed such solid progress between year #2 and #3 and then his position coach is fired? I guess that should have been the precursor to the fact that merit is not a factor in coaching evaluations within the organization.




  10. #262

    Re: I'm losing my faith in Joe Flacco

    Like most people on this board, I'd like to see Joe work with a new OC. But, in order to do that, Cameron will have to go and Joe will have to be re-signed or tagged. The problem with the re-sign is obviouse (hugh chunk of money) and the problem with the tag is that the one year average for QB pay will be somewhere between $16-20M. Can the Ravens afford that without blowing up the rest of the team for years to come? I'm not sure of the solution, but will one extra year of Joe with a new OC tell us enough?




  11. #263

    Re: I'm losing my faith in Joe Flacco

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeDaniel View Post
    Look at Joe in 2010. He had a very good year with 25 TD/10 INT and a QBR in the low 90s. 4 of the 5 receivers that he used most that year (Stallworth, Mason, Housh, Heap) are out of the league, so I think it's a safe assessment that his progress was genuine and not a byproduct of having extreme talent around him.

    That was the Jim Zorn year though, where he had a buffer between him and our idiot O.C. I think a lot of our expectations were based on that year, where Joe was given a support structure more similar to what is given to other teams. Since Zorn was ridiculously fired, Joe has played okay, but is definitely more similar to a middle-of-the-pack QB than a top 6-8 guy.

    When you look at it in this llight, it does make you wonder how much of his lack of progress you can really blame on him. We have tried to draft pieces to help him, yet haven't given him the one thing that any QB needs to grow...competent coaching. What does it say about Harbaugh that Flacco showed such solid progress between year #2 and #3 and then his position coach is fired? I guess that should have been the precursor to the fact that merit is not a factor in coaching evaluations within the organization.
    Completely agree with everything here. But another thing that changed after 2010 is that Joe is being asked or allowed to throw it a lot more. He had 53 more attempts in 2011 over 2010 (489 to 542, an increase of 10.8%) and only had 6 more completions to show for them (and 5 less TDs and 2 more INTs).

    We played better defenses overall in 2011 so that could be part of it along with Zorn getting fired as you said, but I think the going pass happy (relatively) might have been by design to see if it could be handled. Obviously with Cameron, no Zorn, different supporting cast, tougher defenses, it didn't pan out.

    And this year he is on pace for a further increase to 568 attempts. I have no idea why we are throwing so much more, but it could be to evaluate Flacco before the big contract committment. But as you and others have mentioned, the coaching may (probably does) prevent any fair assessment of his abilities. Simply passing more in a flawed scheme is not a good test. In this case it has lead to more incompletions (lower completion percentage) and therefore a lower QBR, but what does that really tell us considering our scheme/coaching?




  12. #264
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    Re: I'm losing my faith in Joe Flacco

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    Completely agree with everything here. But another thing that changed after 2010 is that Joe is being asked or allowed to throw it a lot more. He had 53 more attempts in 2011 over 2010 (489 to 542, an increase of 10.8%) and only had 6 more completions to show for them (and 5 less TDs and 2 more INTs).

    We played better defenses overall in 2011 so that could be part of it along with Zorn getting fired as you said, but I think the going pass happy (relatively) might have been by design to see if it could be handled. Obviously with Cameron, no Zorn, different supporting cast, tougher defenses, it didn't pan out.


    And this year he is on pace for a further increase to 568 attempts. I have no idea why we are throwing so much more, but it could be to evaluate Flacco before the big contract committment. But as you and others have mentioned, the coaching may (probably does) prevent any fair assessment of his abilities. Simply passing more in a flawed scheme is not a good test. In this case it has lead to more incompletions (lower completion percentage) and therefore a lower QBR, but what does that really tell us considering our scheme/coaching?
    You bring up a very interesting point.

    I'd like to piggy back on this and state that they have further limited themselves by not maintaining a power run-blocking offensive line. So, when the passing game doesn't necessarily work out and they are forced to run the rock...they can't. They hardly EVER run behind Oher and Jah (or whoever is playing LG). I don't think that is a coincidence, but it is an issue because if a majority of the runs are going behind Yanda and KO, then that - once again - makes the offense even easier to predict from a defensive stance.
    Milk is for babies. When you grow up, you have to drink beer.

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