The "Flacco Thread" (Merged from 5 threads)

[LukeDaniel]

Look at Joe in 2010. He had a very good year with 25 TD/10 INT and a QBR in the low 90s. 4 of the 5 receivers that he used most that year (Stallworth, Mason, Housh, Heap) are out of the league, so I think it's a safe assessment that his progress was genuine and not a byproduct of having extreme talent around him.

That was the Jim Zorn year though, where he had a buffer between him and our idiot O.C. I think a lot of our expectations were based on that year, where Joe was given a support structure more similar to what is given to other teams. Since Zorn was ridiculously fired, Joe has played okay, but is definitely more similar to a middle-of-the-pack QB than a top 6-8 guy.

When you look at it in this llight, it does make you wonder how much of his lack of progress you can really blame on him. We have tried to draft pieces to help him, yet haven't given him the one thing that any QB needs to grow...competent coaching. What does it say about Harbaugh that Flacco showed such solid progress between year #2 and #3 and then his position coach is fired? I guess that should have been the precursor to the fact that merit is not a factor in coaching evaluations within the organization.

[Gabe]

Like most people on this board, I'd like to see Joe work with a new OC. But, in order to do that, Cameron will have to go and Joe will have to be re-signed or tagged. The problem with the re-sign is obviouse (hugh chunk of money) and the problem with the tag is that the one year average for QB pay will be somewhere between $16-20M. Can the Ravens afford that without blowing up the rest of the team for years to come? I'm not sure of the solution, but will one extra year of Joe with a new OC tell us enough?

[Haloti92]

Look at Joe in 2010. He had a very good year with 25 TD/10 INT and a QBR in the low 90s. 4 of the 5 receivers that he used most that year (Stallworth, Mason, Housh, Heap) are out of the league, so I think it's a safe assessment that his progress was genuine and not a byproduct of having extreme talent around him.

That was the Jim Zorn year though, where he had a buffer between him and our idiot O.C. I think a lot of our expectations were based on that year, where Joe was given a support structure more similar to what is given to other teams. Since Zorn was ridiculously fired, Joe has played okay, but is definitely more similar to a middle-of-the-pack QB than a top 6-8 guy.

When you look at it in this llight, it does make you wonder how much of his lack of progress you can really blame on him. We have tried to draft pieces to help him, yet haven't given him the one thing that any QB needs to grow...competent coaching. What does it say about Harbaugh that Flacco showed such solid progress between year #2 and #3 and then his position coach is fired? I guess that should have been the precursor to the fact that merit is not a factor in coaching evaluations within the organization.

Completely agree with everything here. But another thing that changed after 2010 is that Joe is being asked or allowed to throw it a lot more. He had 53 more attempts in 2011 over 2010 (489 to 542, an increase of 10.8%) and only had 6 more completions to show for them (and 5 less TDs and 2 more INTs).

We played better defenses overall in 2011 so that could be part of it along with Zorn getting fired as you said, but I think the going pass happy (relatively) might have been by design to see if it could be handled. Obviously with Cameron, no Zorn, different supporting cast, tougher defenses, it didn't pan out.

And this year he is on pace for a further increase to 568 attempts. I have no idea why we are throwing so much more, but it could be to evaluate Flacco before the big contract committment. But as you and others have mentioned, the coaching may (probably does) prevent any fair assessment of his abilities. Simply passing more in a flawed scheme is not a good test. In this case it has lead to more incompletions (lower completion percentage) and therefore a lower QBR, but what does that really tell us considering our scheme/coaching?

[wickedsolo]

Completely agree with everything here. But another thing that changed after 2010 is that Joe is being asked or allowed to throw it a lot more. He had 53 more attempts in 2011 over 2010 (489 to 542, an increase of 10.8%) and only had 6 more completions to show for them (and 5 less TDs and 2 more INTs).

We played better defenses overall in 2011 so that could be part of it along with Zorn getting fired as you said, but I think the going pass happy (relatively) might have been by design to see if it could be handled. Obviously with Cameron, no Zorn, different supporting cast, tougher defenses, it didn't pan out.

And this year he is on pace for a further increase to 568 attempts. I have no idea why we are throwing so much more, but it could be to evaluate Flacco before the big contract committment. But as you and others have mentioned, the coaching may (probably does) prevent any fair assessment of his abilities. Simply passing more in a flawed scheme is not a good test. In this case it has lead to more incompletions (lower completion percentage) and therefore a lower QBR, but what does that really tell us considering our scheme/coaching?

You bring up a very interesting point.

I'd like to piggy back on this and state that they have further limited themselves by not maintaining a power run-blocking offensive line. So, when the passing game doesn't necessarily work out and they are forced to run the rock...they can't. They hardly EVER run behind Oher and Jah (or whoever is playing LG). I don't think that is a coincidence, but it is an issue because if a majority of the runs are going behind Yanda and KO, then that - once again - makes the offense even easier to predict from a defensive stance.

[Kevlar]

Completely agree with everything here. But another thing that changed after 2010 is that Joe is being asked or allowed to throw it a lot more. He had 53 more attempts in 2011 over 2010 (489 to 542, an increase of 10.8%) and only had 6 more completions to show for them (and 5 less TDs and 2 more INTs).

We played better defenses overall in 2011 so that could be part of it along with Zorn getting fired as you said, but I think the going pass happy (relatively) might have been by design to see if it could be handled. Obviously with Cameron, no Zorn, different supporting cast, tougher defenses, it didn't pan out.

And this year he is on pace for a further increase to 568 attempts. I have no idea why we are throwing so much more, but it could be to evaluate Flacco before the big contract committment. But as you and others have mentioned, the coaching may (probably does) prevent any fair assessment of his abilities. Simply passing more in a flawed scheme is not a good test. In this case it has lead to more incompletions (lower completion percentage) and therefore a lower QBR, but what does that really tell us considering our scheme/coaching?

I think one of Joe's problems is that he is telegraphing his plays. Defenders are sitting on his routes. He is getting more experienced, but his tendencies are starting to show more as well.

I don't like to compare Joe to a guy like Peyton Manning, but look at part of what makes Manning so successful. You don't know what that guy is going to do. His team looks like they are going through a chinese fire drill at the line of scrimmage while he is barking out all sorts of crazy jibberish. Most of that is just for show. Their #1 priority is to confuse the defense. Even if they do end up in a regular set and run a regular play after the show, they have managed to create some confusion and misdirection in the defense.

The Ravens defense used to do something similar back in its hey day. Jumping around, changing positions, you didn't know where the blitz was coming from. Did it give them an edge? It certainly seemed like it.

Maybe this team needs a little organized chaos on the offensive side of the ball. Like Peyton.

[BigPlayReceiver]

Several of those high-sailing passes to the sideline are also because Flacco has no choice but to try and put it in a position where a Raven receiver might have a shot at it.

Defenders all season have been undercutting a lot of those sideline routes. If Flacco were to NOT throw it high, it would almost surely be a pick.

Exactly this.

G3

[bacchys]

Maybe this team needs a little organized chaos on the offensive side of the ball. Like Peyton.

The Ravens need to at least do what the Chargers did against us last year and include more pre-snap motion in their offense. If you know you want a three receiver set with two wide-outs on the strong side, line the slot up on the weak and motion him over. At least Flacco and the receivers will get information about the coverage before the snap.

[JMUpurkfool]

I went back and watched the All 22 last night.

On the strip sack there was no one open. Flacco held the ball for three seconds and was about to take off or just take a sack when he got hit.

The Steelers D was in 2 man under with a 3 man rush, which means safeties deep covering each half and 6 players in man coverage underneath. Oher was beaten cleanly by Harrison.

Flacco was throwing off his back foot all night. There was at least 6 or 7 plays that were designed to be sideline throws. The Steelers did not blitz at all on these early down throws which left their OLB's shooting underneath these routes. It was easy to see that Joe felt rushed to get the throw off. I thought Cam called a great play in the first quarter to Boldin on a post which Flacco just overthrew. He called it there and never came back to it.

I'm a Joe supporter but he was just off on Sunday. His room for error was very small but he didn't play up to par. We actually ran the ball pretty well. I don't understand why we continued to throw the ball.

One other thing... for Torrey Smith to become a great receiver he needs to improve his "Go Get It". "Go Get It" is when the ball is perfectly thrown and the receiver needs to time his jump and grab the ball at it's highest point. Torrey does not do this. If the ball is a bit under thrown or misplaced he just slows down or bends his route, he is always trying to catch the ball in stride. Sometimes you need to turn and jump and grab that ball.

[Paintballguy]

Sometimes you need to turn and jump and grab that ball.

Torrey did that in the San Diego game to basically win the game. Not sure why he wasn't in the Steelers game.

[JMUpurkfool]

Torrey did that in the San Diego game to basically win the game. Not sure why he wasn't in the Steelers game.

He does a better job on the fade routes but he never does that on the posts. He has almost allowed two interceptions against the Steelers on this route because he was waiting for the ball to come down while the DB jumped to get the ball at it's highest point.

[Ravenswintitle]

I went back and watched the All 22 last night.

On the strip sack there was no one open. Flacco held the ball for three seconds and was about to take off or just take a sack when he got hit.

The Steelers D was in 2 man under with a 3 man rush, which means safeties deep covering each half and 6 players in man coverage underneath. Oher was beaten cleanly by Harrison.

Flacco was throwing off his back foot all night. There was at least 6 or 7 plays that were designed to be sideline throws. The Steelers did not blitz at all on these early down throws which left their OLB's shooting underneath these routes. It was easy to see that Joe felt rushed to get the throw off. I thought Cam called a great play in the first quarter to Boldin on a post which Flacco just overthrew. He called it there and never came back to it.

I'm a Joe supporter but he was just off on Sunday. His room for error was very small but he didn't play up to par. We actually ran the ball pretty well. I don't understand why we continued to throw the ball.

One other thing... for Torrey Smith to become a great receiver he needs to improve his "Go Get It". "Go Get It" is when the ball is perfectly thrown and the receiver needs to time his jump and grab the ball at it's highest point. Torrey does not do this. If the ball is a bit under thrown or misplaced he just slows down or bends his route, he is always trying to catch the ball in stride. Sometimes you need to turn and jump and grab that ball.

good post, I remember one play where we really needed to convert and he threw it short to Torrey on the sideline. If he'd just come back toward the ball he would've had it uncontested. But Joe did sail some balls last week. The pass D this weekend is much less stellar so I'm hoping he takes advantage.

[ravensnhokies]

I noticed a few Steelers defenders coming low at Joe. He was spooked b/c of it. I think that's why he was throwing off his back foot and thus the ball sailing high. If he stepped into his throws like he should of, Joe might have gotten hurt ala Pollard/Brady. Still probably wouldnt have gotten a personal foul.

[StingerNLG]

A pass thrown too high on a sideline pattern falls harmlessly out of bounds. A pass thrown too high in the middle of the field has PICK ME written all over it. Y'think there maybe might be a reason Cam doesn't call routes over the middle?

Yet his stats over the middle are far better than they are outside the hashmarks. So that doesn't hold water.

[TTRaven]

He does a better job on the fade routes but he never does that on the posts. He has almost allowed two interceptions against the Steelers on this route because he was waiting for the ball to come down while the DB jumped to get the ball at it's highest point.

Torrey didn't almost allow 2 interceptions. They were horribly underthrown balls by Flacco. You can't expect your receiver to run full speed, stop, comeback to the ball, and locate it when he's running a post route.

Torrey was beating his man all day. Joe just couldn't get the ball to him.

[wickedsolo]

Torrey didn't almost allow 2 interceptions. They were horribly underthrown balls by Flacco. You can't expect your receiver to run full speed, stop, comeback to the ball, and locate it when he's running a post route.

Torrey was beating his man all day. Joe just couldn't get the ball to him.

Except for when Joe threw a pass that hit him in the hands in the end zone and he dropped it.

[StingerNLG]

Except for when Joe threw a pass that hit him in the hands in the end zone and he dropped it.

Or when Joe throws a good ball and Torrey stops his route cold and just turns around.

[lobachevsky]

Yet his stats over the middle are far better than they are outside the hashmarks. So that doesn't hold water.

Au contraire, mon frere. My point had to do with pure physics & geometry--"stats" have nothing to do with it. Tipped passes in the middle get picked more often no matter who the QB is, because they're still in the field of play. Add to that the fact that Ravens receivers rarely get separation, so there's always at least one defender in the vicinity....

Anyone beside me remember the game here vs Indy some years back when the Ravens were driving late for what looked like the sure tying or winning score & Joe chucked one into the middle right into the arms of a Colts LB? Yeah, yeah, I know, anecdotal evidence, but a pretty fair example of what can go horribly wrong.

[TTRaven]

Except for when Joe threw a pass that hit him in the hands in the end zone and he dropped it.

Ok so 1 dropped pass by Torrey. There was no excuse for dropping that pass. That doesn't excuse the other horribly inaccurate passes by Flacco though.

[StingerNLG]

Au contraire, mon frere. My point had to do with pure physics & geometry--"stats" have nothing to do with it. Tipped passes in the middle get picked more often no matter who the QB is, because they're still in the field of play. Add to that the fact that Ravens receivers rarely get separation, so there's always at least one defender in the vicinity....

Anyone beside me remember the game here vs Indy some years back when the Ravens were driving late for what looked like the sure tying or winning score & Joe chucked one into the middle right into the arms of a Colts LB? Yeah, yeah, I know, anecdotal evidence, but a pretty fair example of what can go horribly wrong.

I understand that. But ALL QB's throw picks over the middle of the field. Every single one. Including the great ones. But that should not be a reason for an OC or HC to be afraid to take that chance. Using the stats was just my way of fortifying my argument.

Quarterbacks throw interceptions. Joe Flacco will throw interceptions before the end of the year. I guarantee it. So will 31 other QB's in the league.

[wickedsolo]

Ok so 1 dropped pass by Torrey. There was no excuse for dropping that pass. That doesn't excuse the other horribly inaccurate passes by Flacco though.

I'm not saying it does, but everyone is so quick to point out all of the throws that didn't work and hardly ever talk about the fact that Flacco does throw some really nice passes out there that just get flat out dropped.

3 years now this offense has had some major issues with dropped passes. THREE DAMN YEARS.

I can understand a drop here and there, but man...this offense goes through droughts of drops and there have been drops that have ended games or severely impacted games for us.