The "Flacco Thread" (Merged from 5 threads)

**darb72** · 11-30-2012, 04:44 AM

Nah, the Dolphins have Tannyhill. That kid is looking like he might be a keeper. Luck and RGIII are having great years but Tannyhill is showing that he belongs at the QB position.

**rharris1986** · 11-30-2012, 07:30 AM

What is a quarterback worth who has won 58 of his last 84 games - that's a 69% winning percentage. There is NO quarterback in the NFL who has won more games over the same period. If Joe were ever to hit the open market he would be snatched up in a heartbeat by any one of a number of QB deficient teams. Joe would be a Jet by the end of the first day of free agency!.

Originally Posted by AmishlandRavenFan

Watching Drew Brees and Matt Ryan this evening has got me thinking (which is always dangerous):

1) Is Joe a top 10 QB? top 15?
2) If the answer to one of the questions above is "yes," does a franchise tag make any sense? (more of a rhetorical question)
3) What do we do if we let him test the FA market, and someone is willing to pay him "above market?"

**Paintballguy** · 11-30-2012, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by AmishlandRavenFan

Watching Drew Brees and Matt Ryan this evening has got me thinking (which is always dangerous):

1) Is Joe a top 10 QB? top 15?
2) If the answer to one of the questions above is "yes," does a franchise tag make any sense? (more of a rhetorical question)
3) What do we do if we let him test the FA market, and someone is willing to pay him "above market?"

Watching Drew Brees and Matt Ryan, I saw Brees throw 5 picks and blew an opportunity to score points at the end of the first half due to horrible clock management. Then, I saw Matt Ryan throw for an ugly 165 yards and a td against a bad saints defense.

**Corey** · 11-30-2012, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by StingerNLG

There is no comparison to those two contracts though. Peyton got paid a ton, Joe won't get that.

But the alternative is to let Joe walk and then what? Who is coming in here to keep the Ravens going to the playoffs? That's the other piece to this. If the Ravens let Joe walk, who QB's this team?

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk 2

I am pretty sure I said that I didn't want to see him go. The point I am making is Joe's contract is damned if you do and if you don't. If you break the bank and pay him similar to Drew Brees, which I am sure his agent is aiming for, you don't have the money to put the talent around him that he needs to succeed. If you don't pay him your without a QB. Either way your not winning.

**NCRAVEN** · 11-30-2012, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by StingerNLG

There is no comparison to those two contracts though. Peyton got paid a ton, Joe won't get that.

But the alternative is to let Joe walk and then what? Who is coming in here to keep the Ravens going to the playoffs? That's the other piece to this. If the Ravens let Joe walk, who QB's this team?

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk 2

Alex Smith might be available. Just sayin'...

Q, ripping me a new one for my semi-serious semi joke in 3,2....

**alienrace** · 11-30-2012, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by Corey

I am pretty sure I said that I didn't want to see him go. The point I am making is Joe's contract is damned if you do and if you don't. If you break the bank and pay him similar to Drew Brees, which I am sure his agent is aiming for, you don't have the money to put the talent around him that he needs to succeed. If you don't pay him your without a QB. Either way your not winning.

This is the same dilemma that most franchises face when they draft a franchise QB who wins games. The Ravens have been very good about keeping their stars without putting them in cap hell, and I think they'll structure things favorably for themselves.

**webbrick2007** · 11-30-2012, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by rharris1986

What is a quarterback worth who has won 58 of his last 84 games - that's a 69% winning percentage. There is NO quarterback in the NFL who has won more games over the same period. If Joe were ever to hit the open market he would be snatched up in a heartbeat by any one of a number of QB deficient teams. Joe would be a Jet by the end of the first day of free agency!.

So tired of hearing how Joe Flacco is responsible for the Ravens winning %
The fact is that Joe has been consitently ranked in the 15-20 range (based on QB rating).
He has been bad on the road, and bad in the majority of the Ravens playoff games.
We can get to the playoffs with Joe, but I don't think he'll ever win the SB

and the bottom line is that as he takes a bigger chunk of the salary cap the talent around him will decline... and I think the Ravens will have trouble maintaining their recent success.

He (and the koolaid drinking fan base) needs to realize that he is not an elite QB, and if he negotiates an elite salary the Ravens will not be able to keep the talent around him that he needs to win

**NCRAVEN** · 11-30-2012, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by webbrick2007

So tired of hearing how Joe Flacco is responsible for the Ravens winning %
The fact is that Joe has been consitently ranked in the 15-20 range (based on QB rating).
He has been bad on the road, and bad in the majority of the Ravens playoff games.
We can get to the playoffs with Joe, but I don't think he'll ever win the SB

and the bottom line is that as he takes a bigger chunk of the salary cap the talent around him will decline... and I think the Ravens will have trouble maintaining their recent success.

He (and the koolaid drinking fan base) needs to realize that he is not an elite QB, and if he negotiates an elite salary the Ravens will not be able to keep the talent around him that he needs to win

I am not arguing Joe is an "elite" QB (whatever that means). But I am not sure how fair it is to knock him for road playoff games when 5 of his 9 playoff games were in his first in second year.

**webbrick2007** · 11-30-2012, 09:43 AM

Big Ben won the superbowl in his second year
Eli Manning won the suberbowl in his third year
That's what Elite QB's do

although I choke on giving a single player credit for a team accomplishment.

Did Trent Dilfer win a Super Bowl?

The point is there are very few QB's who can carry a team (Brady, Peyton, Ben, Rogers...)

I don't think Flacco is going to carry you to a SB, so you better be able to afford premium talent (defensive) elsewhere to make the TEAM successful.

**NCRAVEN** · 11-30-2012, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by webbrick2007

Big Ben won the superbowl in his second year
Eli Manning won the suberbowl in his third year
That's what Elite QB's do

although I choke on giving a single player credit for a team accomplishment.

Did Trent Dilfer win a Super Bowl?

The point is there are very few QB's who can carry a team (Brady, Peyton, Ben, Rogers...)

I don't think Flacco is going to carry you to a SB, so you better be able to afford premium talent (defensive) elsewhere to make the TEAM successful.

Really, this is what elite QB's do?

2005 Superbowl B. Roethlisberger
C/ATT YDS AVG TD INT
9/21 123 5.9 0 2

Now go away troll.

**bacchys** · 11-30-2012, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by webbrick2007

Big Ben won the superbowl in his second year
Eli Manning won the suberbowl in his third year
That's what Elite QB's do

although I choke on giving a single player credit for a team accomplishment.

Did Trent Dilfer win a Super Bowl?

The point is there are very few QB's who can carry a team (Brady, Peyton, Ben, Rogers...)

I don't think Flacco is going to carry you to a SB, so you better be able to afford premium talent (defensive) elsewhere to make the TEAM successful.

You should have choked more. QB's don't win SB's. Teams do. The "elite" E. Manning needed a miracle ball-to-helmet catch from a bit player to win the first time. Brady and P. Manning rode their running games and defenses to SB victories, and the two years the Patriots relied on Brady to win they lost to E. Manning and the Giants. Both Giants victories stemmed more from the dominance of their defensive lines in those years than the offensive prowess of their QB- and in both E. Manning's biggest plays involve heroic catches.

The opening salvo in the Ravens victory was a long touchdown pass from Dilfer to Stokely, something which never seems to get mentioned in recounts of that demolishment of the Giants by the Ravens.

The closest I've ever seen a QB come to winning a SB was Elway in the '80s. Those Broncos teams weren't bad, but they wouldn't have sniffed the SB without Elway. The Bengals and Browns both were better teams in those years.

The "elite" arguments are mostly garbage. Flacco's a good quarterback. He's not a great one. You don't need to be a great quarterback to win Super Bowls. Troy Aikman has three rings, and he wasn't great, imo. He was very good, however. Great players, and this includes QB's, make those around them better. P.Manning and Brady are both great. Roethlisberger is sort-of great: in certain situations he is. In others, not so much. He won his first SB handing the ball off to Bettis and Fast Willie. He's the best I've ever seen after getting hit by a defender. He's good otherwise. In situations where other QB's would be on the ground (including P.Manning and Brady), Roethlisberger is still able to make plays downfield.

Flacco has some of that ability to shake off would-be sackers, but not close to Roethlisberger. He's more like Daunte Culpepper: he's big enough you need to get a solid hit or grab on him, but he lacks the lower body strength of Roethlisberger to just tear out of the grasp or absorb and bounce off of hard hits. He has a stronger, more accurate arm than Roethlisberger, however, and when both have time to survey the field I think Flacco is the better QB.

**webbrick2007** · 11-30-2012, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by NCRAVEN

Really, this is what elite QB's do?

Now go away troll.

You make my point for me... Ben did not win the superbowl, anymore than Joe Flacco won the New England game that Ray Rice ran for 200 yards... or last week when Ray Rice turned a checkdown into a 30 yard game.

It's a team game, if Joe Flacco gets a top 5 QB salary the team talent and record will decline, even Ben and Brady are struggling to get to the SB now that they consume a large % of theire teams cap.

Just think the Ravens need to be very careful in how much money they give to Flacco. Sorry if my opinion doensn't align with your view of the world.

**NCRAVEN** · 11-30-2012, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by webbrick2007

You make my point for me... Ben did not win the superbowl, anymore than Joe Flacco won the New England game that Ray Rice ran for 200 yards... or last week when Ray Rice turned a checkdown into a 30 yard game.

It's a team game, if Joe Flacco gets a top 5 QB salary the team talent and record will decline, even Ben and Brady are struggling to get to the SB now that they consume a large % of theire teams cap.

Just think the Ravens need to be very careful in how much money they give to Flacco. Sorry if my opinion doensn't align with your view of the world.

You had more than one point.

First point was Flacco is not "elite" thus he won't carry us to a Super Bowl. And "elite" QB's win super bowls in their second year. In his second year, Big Jen was anything but, especially in the Super Bowl.

**bacchys** · 11-30-2012, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by webbrick2007

You make my point for me... Ben did not win the superbowl, anymore than Joe Flacco won the New England game that Ray Rice ran for 200 yards... or last week when Ray Rice turned a checkdown into a 30 yard game.

It's a team game, if Joe Flacco gets a top 5 QB salary the team talent and record will decline, even Ben and Brady are struggling to get to the SB now that they consume a large % of theire teams cap.

Just think the Ravens need to be very careful in how much money they give to Flacco. Sorry if my opinion doensn't align with your view of the world.

Flacco contributed to the win in San Diego. The entire game wasn't just Rice running for 30 yards. He hit a number of big third downs before and after that play, and it wasn't his play that backed the Ravens up to 4th and 29.

But I agree with your point: the Ravens can't afford to overpay Flacco, and he's not going to be a top 5 QB if his contract freezes out getting and keeping good players.

**Bazooka Joe** · 11-30-2012, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by NCRAVEN

Alex Smith might be available. Just sayin'...

Q, ripping me a new one for my semi-serious semi joke in 3,2....

Kyle Boller is available too.

**StingerNLG** · 11-30-2012, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by PerpetuallyBored74

Replace Titans and Seahawks with Vikings and Jets, and you're right on the money.

No way the Jets would give up on Mark Sanchez. If they won't bench him with all this going on, they aren't replacing him yet.

The Vikings I thought about, but the Seahawks would change QB's before the Vikings.

**Bazooka Joe** · 11-30-2012, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by webbrick2007

You make my point for me... Ben did not win the superbowl, anymore than Joe Flacco won the New England game that Ray Rice ran for 200 yards... or last week when Ray Rice turned a checkdown into a 30 yard game.

It's a team game, if Joe Flacco gets a top 5 QB salary the team talent and record will decline, even Ben and Brady are struggling to get to the SB now that they consume a large % of theire teams cap.

Just think the Ravens need to be very careful in how much money they give to Flacco. Sorry if my opinion doensn't align with your view of the world.

The Ravens are great because Flacco is a great QB. Flacco is great because he plays on a great team.

"Elite" is the koolaid that media hands out to numb brains like yourself.

Is Flacco amongst the greatest QB to ever play? Only time will tell that story. Elway didn't become legendary until the end of his career.

Elway was a winner.
Unitas was a winner.
Flacco is a winner!

**StingerNLG** · 11-30-2012, 10:43 AM

Woah.... Wait a second. First you said:

Originally Posted by webbrick2007

Big Ben won the superbowl in his second year
Eli Manning won the suberbowl in his third year
That's what Elite QB's do

Then you said:

although I choke on giving a single player credit for a team accomplishment.

Did Trent Dilfer win a Super Bowl?

You realize the main reason Ben not only went to the SB but one it was on the back of Jerome Bettis right? Because "elite" QB's also don't have the lowest pass attempt and pass yardage stats in the entire league the year they win a SuperBowl.

So if we are going to be fair here, then Ben Rothlisberger is NOT the reason the Steelers won that SB. And if we are comparing stats, then Ben Rothlisberger was NOT an "elite" QB that year. In fact, Joe Flacco's overall stats were BETTER than Ben's that year. So if Ben was "elite", then so was Joe.

**StingerNLG** · 11-30-2012, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Corey

I am pretty sure I said that I didn't want to see him go. The point I am making is Joe's contract is damned if you do and if you don't. If you break the bank and pay him similar to Drew Brees, which I am sure his agent is aiming for, you don't have the money to put the talent around him that he needs to succeed. If you don't pay him your without a QB. Either way your not winning.

I know you weren't. It was more a general question. I think Joe will get the number that works for him and works for the Ravens cap too. I tend to think guys like Joe and Rice realize that while they want to get paid, it has to be to a point that they can keep the other weapons that make the offense work. We shall see.

Originally Posted by NCRAVEN

Alex Smith might be available. Just sayin'...

Q, ripping me a new one for my semi-serious semi joke in 3,2....

Heh.

**Ravenswintitle** · 11-30-2012, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by rharris1986

What is a quarterback worth who has won 58 of his last 84 games - that's a 69% winning percentage. There is NO quarterback in the NFL who has won more games over the same period.

and you were cussing and spitting with each win -ha! It's Cam's fault that Joe won all those games ya know...