Football and Faith

[JohnBKistler]

All I'm saying is that it is implied in the quote is that there is a correlation between belief in a God and outcomes in sports. It doesn't really make a lot of sense to me, just as it doesn't make a lot of sense to JohnBKistler that this would make people who don't share that belief feel uncomfortable.

Well, if you are uncomfortable because Harbaugh is outspoken with his religious beliefs, or that he believes "God is in our huddle" (which I think is an incorrect interpretation of what he was saying, but who knows for sure?) I can understand that. Hell, as a Christian, I am uncomfortable with other Christians that feel they need a bull-horn on main street to practice our religion. I am more of a walk-the-walk parishioner.

If you are uncomfortable because you think that his beliefs are mandated to the team and that non-conformity has consequences. Well, yeah, until someone can provide any sort of evidence to support that claim, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[TheExtraPoint]

The sentiment "I support others rights to believe what they want" is generally honest, but usually hides the preposition, "as long as they don't take their belief seriously."

Reactions like the one ExtraPoint is having show what happens when someone shows they take their belief seriously.

Typical high-minded nonsense. In reality, there's a difference between respecting someone's right to their convictions (whatever their nature) and merely wondering about the implications of interjecting those convictions into what has historically been an areligious arena.

What would Frank Zappa think?

[NCRAVEN]

That's above my paygrade my friend, and not my argument.

All I'm saying is that it is implied in the quote is that there is a correlation between belief in a God and outcomes in sports. It doesn't really make a lot of sense to me, just as it doesn't make a lot of sense to JohnBKistler that this would make people who don't share that belief feel uncomfortable.

By your take and by mine, I think it's clearly in the interpretation of the quote.

We all have our bias' and whether you see it or not, you seem to be to read too much into what he's saying, maybe to confirm your bias. What that is I don't know, I could speculate (and of course, I feel I already do know) but lets just not do that for now.

[NCRAVEN]

Typical high-minded nonsense. In reality, there's a difference between respecting someone's right to their convictions (whatever their nature) and merely wondering about the implications of interjecting those convictions into what has historically been an areligious arena.

What would Frank Zappa think?

Not saying you're guilty of this, but What Sir is saying, has clearly been displayed in this thread.

[JMUpurkfool]

Speaking on the replies about whether prayers are directed towards swaying the outcome of a game:

I know that the prayers are not directly saying, "Dear Lord, make us win today!"

The prayers are well intended usually stating how "we pray you keep both teams safe" and "allow us to play up to our abilities that you have instilled in us."

I acknowledge that I was off base there.

I greatly appreciated Coach Harbaugh's remarks about respecting his players rights to believe what they wished and to share their opinions freely. It seems backwards to me that he would then go and turn around to make a blanket statement like this.

The majority of Ravens players and coaches are probably some form of Christian. But his statement is unfair to those that aren't. It's not a huge deal but it can hurt to feel like you are an outsider because of your beliefs.

I think there are numerous types of hobbies or activities that are great to be team wide morale builders. I don't think something like religion should be one of those things.

I guess it comes down to personal preference. My preference is for our favorite team to not alienate anybody, accidental or otherwise.

[NCRAVEN]

I think there are numerous types of hobbies or activities that are great to be team wide morale builders. I don't think something like religion should be one of those things.

Maybe it's semantics, but I don't think it's religion specifically. Moreso faith in God or a God, spiritual if you will.

Not a big deal, just a bit of a literal person.

[JMUpurkfool]

I appreciate that this has remained pretty respectful. Tough topic obviously.

There's no hard evidence that the organization would favor a Theist player over an Agnostic or Atheist player.

I would certainly say that it's possible, even from a subconscious standpoint. Harbaugh, Newsome, and Decosta have been very open about the fact that they look into a players upbringing and background when they are scouting them. They tend to bring in players who have persevered tough times. It's not unthinkable to reason that faith has come up in these conversations before.

I think that's probably one of the last things they would even consider looking at but if all other things were equal who would Harbaugh be more likely to take?

This is completely hypothetical but I think it merits discussion.

[ActualSpamBot]

Not saying you're guilty of this, but What Sir is saying, has clearly been displayed in this thread.

By who? One lone nut who was promptly shut down by both sides?

[JMUpurkfool]

Maybe it's semantics, but I don't think it's religion specifically. Moreso faith in God or a God, spiritual if you will.

Not a big deal, just a bit of a literal person.

I don't think Harbaugh is referring to just any God though. I haven't heard him relate any stories to the media about Muhammad or Krishna. Over the past five years I have heard him recall countless biblical stories in press conferences and locker room speeches.

I guess I should have put 'Christianity' in place of 'religion'.

[NCRAVEN]

I don't think Harbaugh is referring to just any God though. I haven't heard him relate any stories to the media about Muhammad or Krishna. Over the past five years I have heard him recall countless biblical stories in press conferences and locker room speeches.

I guess I should have put 'Christianity' in place of 'religion'.

Muhammad is a prophet, Muslims and Christian's believe in the same God. Not trying to argue, just trying to stay factual.

But I haven't heard (not saying there aren't any) of Harbaugh talk about Jesus. My Main point though is there is a difference between between spiritual and religious.

1. Believe in God
2. Believe in God and Jesus was His son or b) Believe in God and Mohammed or etc.
3. Believing in a specific religion, baptist, catholic etc.

[NCRAVEN]

By who? One lone nut who was promptly shut down by both sides?

Guilty conscience, Spam?

[Random Thoughts]

Muhammad is a prophet, Muslims and Christian's believe in the same God. Not trying to argue, just trying to stay factual.

But I haven't heard (not saying there aren't any) of Harbaugh talk about Jesus. My Main point though is there is a difference between between spiritual and religious.

1. Believe in God
2. Believe in God and Jesus was His son or b) Believe in God and Mohammed or etc.
3. Believing in a specific religion, baptist, catholic etc.

That is true, but one could reasonably deduce that John was referring to Christian faith based on his constant biblical references.

[lobachevsky]

Until someone can provide me with evidence that a player's faith, or lack thereof, determines whether he is drafted, signed, played, benched or cut, this must remain a baseless claim.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I made no "claim", not even a conjecture--I simply wondered "out loud" if there is any relationship. Is there any basis for thinking there is? There wasn't until Harbaugh "opened the door" to that sort of speculation by needlessly making the situation so public as to be nearly unavoidable.

Please ignore lob, he's making rational unbelievers look like shrill, militant nutters.

Please ignore ActualSpamBot, he clearly did not understand my post.

I have no problems with an individual's beliefs so long as he doesn't go out of his/her way to foist them on others. But when the head coach of a sports team that represents my home town (not an avowedly religious institution like Notre Dame or TCU or Southern Methodist) goes out of his way to institute in his operation, not just a spiritual structure but a religious structure associated with one particular religion, and then goes out of his way to publicize it, it is neither "shrill" nor "militant" for a non-believer to express deep misgivings.

[NCRAVEN]

The sentiment "I support others rights to believe what they want" is generally honest, but usually hides the preposition, "as long as they don't take their belief seriously."

Reactions like the one ExtraPoint is having show what happens when someone shows they take their belief seriously.

I think you could change this to.
"I support others rights to believe what they want" but "as long as they don't ever talk about them in public."

[RedSkins Fury]

Please ignore lob, he's making rational unbelievers look like shrill, militant nutters.

Actually, I agree with him. I think his post is well thought out and written. I do agree that some of his views and/or fears may be on the extreme side of thinking, but what he fears is not unheard of. I certainly hope that these things aren't happening within the organization.

[Sirdowski]

Actually, I agree with him. I think his post is well thought out and written. I do agree that some of his views and/or fears may be on the extreme side of thinking, but what he fears is not unheard of. I certainly hope that these things aren't happening within the organization.

I think this reaffirms my point.

Typical high-minded nonsense. In reality, there's a difference between respecting someone's right to their convictions (whatever their nature) and merely wondering about the implications of interjecting those convictions into what has historically been an areligious arena.

What would Frank Zappa think?

I'd say "merely wondering" is an intentional understatement.

While I find Zappa amusing, he was a sociopath, so I'd say his opinion would be predictable to say the least.

[JohnBKistler]

Please don't put words in my mouth. I made no "claim", not even a conjecture--I simply wondered "out loud" if there is any relationship. Is there any basis for thinking there is? There wasn't until Harbaugh "opened the door" to that sort of speculation by needlessly making the situation so public as to be nearly unavoidable.

Ok...I changed my post from "claim" to "speculation".

[AirFlacco]

As a Christian, I don't see the pre-game prayer as a prayer to ask for a win. The outcome of the game is almost besides the point. It is a prayer to perform well with your god-given talents, and to be true to yourself, your teammates and your coaches. In my mind, this is no different than someone saying a prayer to themselves before a work day, or a big meeting, or a speech. "Give me the strength to do X."

Well, I would hope that he would be paying attention to the individuals that make up the team, as well as the individuals on the other team.

I think the whole "God is for US and against THEM" gets overplayed sometimes.

From what I've heard from the players themselves (my nephews know Matt Stover and I've talked to him) is they pray for each other during the game and that no one will
get seriously hurt. God doesn't care who wins a football game but he does care about everyone in the game.

Players from both teams gathered for years after the game and you seldom if ever saw it on TV but nobody is asking
God for a win. They just want to play their best and that nobody gets hurt.

[darb72]

So Lob is perfectly alright with people having different opinions than his, as long as they never mention them? Not surprising from a liberal, but whatever.

[darb72]

From what I've heard from the players themselves is they pray for each other during the game and that no one will
get seriously hurt. God doesn't care who wins a football game but he does care about everyone in the game.

Players from both teams gathered for years after the game and you seldom ever saw it on TV but nobody is asking
God for a win. They just want to play their best and that nobody gets hurt.

After every game I played in high school and college, players from both teams would meet in the middle of the field and pray together. Lob doesn't think we should be allowed to do that.