Football and Faith

[AirFlacco]

Yea, there's plenty who will agree with him but not us.

[lobachevsky]

...as a Christian, I am uncomfortable with other Christians that feel they need a bull-horn on main street to practice our religion. I am more of a walk-the-walk parishioner.

And non-believers like me have no bone to pick with believers like you. I never had a problem with Matt Stover pointing to heaven after each kick--he acknowledged the Creator he believes in, & left it there. Heck, like most everyone else I shed a tear when Jermaine Lewis did the same as he crossed the goal line in SB35, even though I don't believe his unborn son is in heaven (because I don't believe that such a heaven exists).

If you are uncomfortable because you think that his beliefs are mandated to the team and that non-conformity has consequences. Well, yeah, until someone can provide any sort of evidence to support that claim, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I beg to differ, John--to me it makes a whole heckuva lot of sense. It's one thing for the team to say, We want to support our athletes in their faith & so we have chapel & Bible study & a Christian chaplain available to all who care to take part.

But when the Head Coach goes out of his way to publicly proclaim that those activities are "a big part of who we are," it's not a stretch to conclude that unless a player participates in these things he's not really part of the team. If you're the 52nd or 53rd guy on the roster, hanging on to your NFL dream for dear life, & you have a philosophical problem with this, the pressure to conform must be immense.

And this is what I find so incomprehensible about Harbaugh going public about this. What did it accomplish, other than to put even more pressure on any player with reservations to "get with the program"? How can anyone be certain there won't be consequences for those who can't or won't?

[JMUpurkfool]

After every game I played in high school and college, players from both teams would meet in the middle of the field and pray together. Lob doesn't think we should be allowed to do that.

Talk about pulling something out of thin air.

You can pray if you want to. It shouldn't be something mandated by authority.

I'm positive the Ravens don't require every player and coach to pray, but when he says what he did he is speaking for the team as a whole. I think it would be wise for him to stay away from speaking for everybody on matters like this.

[lobachevsky]

So Lob is perfectly alright with people having different opinions than his, as long as they never mention them? Not surprising from a liberal, but whatever.

Typical rightwinger, trying to shove words in my mouth & then crap on me for saying them.

Matt Stover is by all accounts every bit as devout a Christian as Tim Tebow, but no non-believing Ravens fan I know ever had a problem with him pointing to the sky after every kick & acknowledging the Creator he believes in.

For every non-believer who (you want to believe) only respects others' beliefs if they never mention them, there are a dozen believers who only respect non-believers' views so long as they can say to themselves "Believe what you will, I'm going to heaven when I die & you're gonna burn in hell." Nice people.

I don't really care what you believe or how ludicrous it seems to me so long as you treat your fellow man with decency & respect. A lot of people who call themselves Christians are in dire need of a refresher course on just what that means. They ought to start by rereading what their Savior actually said, most especially Matthew 25:31-46.

[NCRAVEN]

I don't really care what you believe or how ludicrous it seems to me so long as you treat your fellow man with decency & respect. A lot of people who call themselves Christians are in dire need of a refresher course on just what that means. They ought to start by rereading what their Savior actually said, most especially Matthew 25:31-46.

But you do care if they share them in public, right?

I mean, I see you qualified in with a subjective term "go out of his/their way" but you could say that any time you wanted, could you not?

I have no problems with an individual's beliefs so long as he doesn't go out of his/her way to foist them on others. But when the head coach of a sports team that represents my home town (not an avowedly religious institution like Notre Dame or TCU or Southern Methodist) goes out of his way to institute in his operation, not just a spiritual structure but a religious structure associated with one particular religion, and then goes out of his way to publicize it, it is neither "shrill" nor "militant" for a non-believer to express deep misgivings.

[JMUpurkfool]

But you do care if they share them in public, right?

I mean, I see you qualified in with a subjective term "go out of his/their way" but you could say that any time you wanted, could you not?

I don't think you understand. Harbaugh didn't say, "I have faith in god."

He said "To see it pay off like that, with that kind of success, is more of a validation of faith and trust in one another and in God. I don’t like to say it too much because I know some people don’t like to hear that, but it’s a big part of who we are as a team."

He shared what he believes to be the team's beliefs are. Unfortunately, it's not possible that all 100 or so people involved in the Ravens organization share the same beliefs.

[AirFlacco]

I posted a thread soon after HARBs came here that he was a Christian based on one of the first
interviews he did and it was with the Wash Post. It described his office and he had a Bible verse on his wall behind his desk and a Daily Devotional on his desk. All those were detailed in the article and signs that he is a Christian.

HARBs does believe in God and his brother spoke at Promise Keepers and his dad was the
AD or Assist AD at Marquette a Cath College, I think it was and that's where his sister JOni met her husband who is now head basketball coach at Indiana.

There's no doubt in my mind HARBs entire family is Christian and they're strict
Catholics and thus the faith reference in the locker room and he's used plenty of
Bible verses as part of his motivational speeches.

Other Christian coaches like Joe Gibbs and Tom Landry held Bible studies on the players
day off. Some came, most didn't.

Joe Ehrmann of the old Colts became a Christian as a result of Stan White after his
brother died and he had serious issues with life. He later joined Stan's Bible Study and is
now on the pastorial staff of Grace Fellowship Church in Timonium, MD or was and even
got them their new pastor when they were without one, a former roommate at Dallas
Theological Seminary. Joe also had a inner city ministry called THE DOOR.

[NCRAVEN]

I don't think you understand. Harbaugh didn't say, "I have faith in god."

He said "To see it pay off like that, with that kind of success, is more of a validation of faith and trust in one another and in God. I don’t like to say it too much because I know some people don’t like to hear that, but it’s a big part of who we are as a team."

He shared what he believes to be the team's beliefs are. Unfortunately, it's not possible that all 100 or so people involved in the Ravens organization share the same beliefs.

He also said who we are as a team, not as an organization.

And I gotta say, to me, while I think the conversation about the subject in general has been a good conversation. But when it comes to comes to what Harbaugh said publicly it's not really a big deal. And what he says is a big (read: not the only part) part of who we are as a team, so anyone not spiritual/religious doesn't have to feel left out. It makes me think of when I sold cars years ago when managers would bitch about shit in meetings "if it doesn't apply, let it fly". If you're not spiritual or religious than pay no mind to what we say...

[ActualSpamBot]

After every game I played in high school and college, players from both teams would meet in the middle of the field and pray together. Lob doesn't think we should be allowed to do that.

Huh? Where the fuck did you pull that from?

[JMUpurkfool]

He also said who we are as a team, not as an organization.

And I gotta say, to me, while I think the conversation about the subject in general has been a good conversation. But when it comes to comes to what Harbaugh said publicly it's not really a big deal. And what he says is a big (read: not the only part) part of who we are as a team, so anyone not spiritual/religious doesn't have to feel left out. It makes me think of when I sold cars years ago when managers would bitch about shit in meetings "if it doesn't apply, let it fly". If you're not spiritual or religious than pay no mind to what we say...

Organization and team are synonymous in this situation.

[NCRAVEN]

Organization and team are synonymous in this situation.

Did he say organization?

[JMUpurkfool]

Did he say organization?

What do you think is the difference?

The article states that the faith starts at the top with the Head Coach and GM.

It's semantics anyway.

[darb72]

Huh? Where the fuck did you pull that from?

From the same place Lob came up with the idea that Harbaugh is going to punish any players for not going to church. Faith was a big part of the teams I played on way back when. Again, notice the words BIG PART OF. As in not the whole thing, just a part. We had atheist folks on those teams and they were our brothers in the trenches.

When Harbaugh says that faith is a big part of what the Ravens do, I'm perfectly alright with it and doubt anybody is made to feel left out. If memory serves, not to long ago there was a non-starter who spoke publicly about gay marriage. You think Aynowayimspellingthisname would have done that if he thought the team would cut him? In fact, I believe the organization came out and said they supported his right to say what ever the hell he wanted. Now when Harbaugh says that faith is a big part of the team (there's that phrase again) people are crying foul because they hold different view points.

So yeah, I think Lob has a real problem with anybody saying something that is counter to his beliefs.

[darb72]

Typical rightwinger, trying to shove words in my mouth & then crap on me for saying them.

Matt Stover is by all accounts every bit as devout a Christian as Tim Tebow, but no non-believing Ravens fan I know ever had a problem with him pointing to the sky after every kick & acknowledging the Creator he believes in.

For every non-believer who (you want to believe) only respects others' beliefs if they never mention them, there are a dozen believers who only respect non-believers' views so long as they can say to themselves "Believe what you will, I'm going to heaven when I die & you're gonna burn in hell." Nice people.

I don't really care what you believe or how ludicrous it seems to me so long as you treat your fellow man with decency & respect. A lot of people who call themselves Christians are in dire need of a refresher course on just what that means. They ought to start by rereading what their Savior actually said, most especially Matthew 25:31-46.

Who shoved words in your mouth? You are decrying public acts of faith so it's obvious to everyone what you'd do if you saw players praying after a game.

Now if you want to watch someone make a mountain out of a molehill, watch this....

"If you're the 52nd or 53rd guy on the roster, hanging on to your NFL dream for dear life, & you have a philosophical problem with this, the pressure to conform must be immense."

"What did it accomplish, other than to put even more pressure on any player with reservations to "get with the program"? How can anyone be certain there won't be consequences for those who can't or won't?"

Wow, whoever said that made a few leaps in logic that defy common sense. I mean they are seriously arguing that because the coach said faith is BIG PART OF the team, anybody who doesn't have faith will be punished. Uh-huh. I take back that original sentence. That's not a leap in logic. That's hopping on an airplane and leaving logic waving sadly on the tarmac wondering if you'll remember to send a postcard.

As for treating your fellow man with common decency and respect, doesn't that include letting him form his own opinions being allowed to say them out loud?

[lobachevsky]

Once again, darb72 decides he knows what my words mean & tries to shit on me for it. Maybe he should take a hint from something Artemus Ward (Lincoln's favorite humorist) wrote: “It ain't so much the things we don't know that get us in trouble. It's the things we know that ain't so.”

I know he's a lost cause, but FTR, as JMUpurkfool pointed out very well above, there is a huuuuge difference between asserting one's faith in God & saying publicly that "it's a big part of who we are as a team."

Anyone who thinks you can publicly go on record with a statement like that without putting enormous pressure on your players to conform with is, at best, someone who's never found him/herself among people who s/he wanted to bond with (or a boss whom s/he wanted or needed to please) but who believed or acted in ways s/he couldn't agree with.

In fact, anyone with two brain cells to rub together might wonder if Harbaugh's intent in "going public" with this team-faith notion was to do precisely that--to crank up the pressure on any Raven who hasn't completely bought in.

"As for treating your fellow man with common decency and respect, doesn't that include letting him form his own opinions being allowed to say them out loud?" IIRC that is guaranteed by the First Amendment, which reads in full: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Let us note what the Constitution does not guarantee: The right to have what one says taken seriously, or allowed to pass without comment or challenge. Nor the right not to have one's intelligence & personal qualities judged & found wanting based on what one has said. (Here's a quote often attributed [probably wrongly] to Honest Abe: Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.)

As for praying at the 50-yard line or anywhere else in public, anyone who self-identifies as a Christian might just want to stop & consider what Jesus of Nazareth said about that sort of thing, as recounted in Matthew 6:5-6: And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.

So many self-identified Christians seem to think more of the petty, rigid, brutal, vengeful acts of the deity depicted in the Old Testament than of what their Savior is reported to have said in the New. No wonder Gandhi said, I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.

[Random Thoughts]

I cannot find the exact quotation, but Thomas Jefferson said that religion should be a private domain between a man and his "god". He said it in a letter to a friend. Although Jefferson championed religious tolerance (one of two accomplishments that he wanted people to remember him by), he was very guarded about his religion.

I know this subject veers from the OP, but bear with me for a minute.

I do not have a problem if John shared his religious values with anyone, but I have a problem when it is "extended" to others. By that, I meant having an office visibly decorates with biblical anecdotes or such (an office is a public domain, it does not belong to John, but the organization) or hosting a team-wide praying session. I am mindful that these are not (I hope not) mandate, but it is questionable at best when anyone does that in a public domain, especially a leading figure.

It does not matter semantically whether John did not explicitly espouse his faith to the Ravens organization, but he has repeatedly made constant biblical references or divine being references. In that process, as a leading figure, he did not make it clear that such faith is his, alone, and does not reflect the organization.

Faith, like politics, should be mentioned minimally not with regularity, especially in a team setting (such as press conferences, locker rooms, et cetera). He can talk about that front of his house or church for all that I care, but not with the Ravens logo anywhere behind and/on him, please.

[Random Thoughts]

Loba,

I liked your recent post, and it resonates well with me, especially with the Gandhi reference.

Off the point, I wonder if the Christians would actually believe in their Christ if the Christ appears before them? or would they condemn their "Christ" as the "Christ" was during his life?

That is another discussion, but anyway... .that was a great post, really.

[NCRAVEN]

What do you think is the difference?

The article states that the faith starts at the top with the Head Coach and GM.

It's semantics anyway.

The only reason I pointed it out is because, you said he was talking about the team, and then people in the organization, which is the difference, team = players, organization = players, front office, scouts, etc.

Not a big deal he just said team, not organization.

[Sirdowski]

In fact, anyone with two brain cells to rub together might wonder if Harbaugh's intent in "going public" with this team-faith notion was to do precisely that--to crank up the pressure on any Raven who hasn't completely bought in.

Seriously dude, appealing to conspiracy?

I bet that's what the famous Harbaugh doghouse is about too. Guys who wouldn't say their hail Mary's at practice. Damn heathens get what they deserve.

[AirFlacco]

Loba,

I liked your recent post, and it resonates well with me, especially with the Gandhi reference.

Off the point, I wonder if the Christians would actually believe in their Christ if the Christ appears before them? or would they condemn their "Christ" as the "Christ" was during his life?

Christ does appear before us every day in different shapes and forms, not physically but thru signs and circumstances. In my own life he just answered a major prayer dealing with a health issue. In my brother's case where he lost his church after pastoring it for 23 years, he was forced out of the house where he was getting free rent for 3 years by the town vet. He sold it to the Amish and they wanted to be in by Christmas. Both he and his wife work and had no time to look for a house but God led them to a beautiful home. It will be the first home they ever owned because they lived in the parsonage free of rent for 23 years. God answered both our prayers in timely fashion.

Christ did appear before the Christians that believed in him at the time. He healed the sick, cured the lame and raised the dead. They saw these miracles and believed. The Pharisees did not and crucified him.

When he rose he said you believe because you see, blessed are those who believe but cannot see.

That's us.

I joked in here and in person that I'd be one of the Christians in heaven by the skin of my teeth and I'd probably lose any crowns I earned because of some bad stuff. After God just answered this monumental prayer, I no longer worry about being in heaven like that because if he's still answering my prayers and taking care of me than he still loves me and I'm going to be a lot higher in heaven than hanging by the skin of my teeth and I'll keep some of those crowns to boot.