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  1. #13

    Re: Football and Faith



    Quote Originally Posted by TheExtraPoint View Post
    What I do wonder is about how that resonates with people (inside or outside the organization) who don't believe in their coach's God, God in general, or that a God would be particularly concerned with his team's ability to work hard, do their job, and ultimately play a game.
    Well, because I do believe in the same god as Harbaugh, the question isn't really directed towards me.

    But I will say this, as a fan of the Baltimore Ravens, I do not put my time, my money and my emotional investment into the team to find any sort of spiritual reward (there are other channels in my life for that). I do it to be entertained and to enjoy their successes (of course, I also agonize when they fail). In return, I only ask from them one thing: a professional effort on and off the field. With very little exception, I think I have gotten that from the Ravens. And the wins are a nice by-product.

    The fact that Harbaugh is very out-front with his religion doesn't necessarily cause me to be more invested in the team. I don't think Billick ever referenced god as part of his coaching, and I was very happy with the job he did, for the most part.

    So until someone shows me an example of how Harbaugh's religious faith determines how the team is managed, I see this as more or less a non-issue.
    Last edited by JohnBKistler; 11-30-2012 at 11:35 AM.





  2. #14
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    Please ignore lob, he's making rational unbelievers look like shrill, militant nutters.

    As for the original premise, I agree with OP that as a non believer, I feel a certain discomfort when I'm expected to participate or be included in other people's religious practices like team prayers or statements like Harbaugh's that paint every single player, coach, and staff member into the category of "believer" whether they are or not. It creates a feeling of "better play along" that is about as much fun as pretending to enjoy a bad meal to spare a host's feelings.

    Now obviously John has much more access to the team and thus knows more than I how his statement will be perceived by the only people who's opinion of him ACTUALLY matter, but I can state unequivocally that had I been a member of that team or coaching staff, I would feel cut out of the larger whole by his decision to bring God into a professional secular environment.

    Ray Lewis's tendency to do the same thing is one of the reasons I always found his words hokey, even when his actions were awe inspiring. After Jermaine Lewis's son Geronimo was still born, I remember seeing a clip of Ray telling Jermaine that that was proof that God had great rewards in store for the Ravens. As if a team winning a game was worth the loss of one's child. If someone said that to me to justify the still birth of my kid, I can't imagine I would quite be able to control my reaction.

    I guess what I'm saying is that if you have faith, great. Enjoy it. But for those of us who don't, it can be very tricky water trying to incorporate religion and secular systems together without leaving someone feeling put out.
    My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging. -Hank Aaron




  3. #15
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    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by TheExtraPoint View Post

    “To see it pay off like that, with that kind of success, is more of a validation of faith and trust in one another and in God. I don’t like to say it too much because I know some people don’t like to hear that, but it’s a big part of who we are as a team."

    In my view there are inferences there. Inferences that a God has an explicit role in success and in outcomes. And more to the point what I view as an insinuation that these outcomes would not have taken place without a specific belief in God. I don't begrudge the coach or the team that view, even if I disagree with it.
    I don't see it that way at all. I see him saying to see "it" (payoff like that) is seeing the shared belief that has made a the bond among the players thus making the TEAM better, is more validation of a God, maybe a bit of confirmation bias on Harbaughs part, but I know way read that as we believe in God more - so he helps us win.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  4. #16

    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    I don't see it that way at all. I see him saying to see "it" is seeing the shared belief that has made a the bond among the players thus making the TEAM better, is more validation of a God, maybe a bit of confirmation bias on Harbaughs part, but I know way read that as we believe in God more - so he helps us win.
    I never said it's about who believes in God "more".




  5. #17
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    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by TheExtraPoint View Post
    I never said it's about who believes in God "more".
    Well... why else would God help them win over another team doing the same thing?
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  6. #18
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    The sentiment "I support others rights to believe what they want" is generally honest, but usually hides the preposition, "as long as they don't take their belief seriously."

    Reactions like the one ExtraPoint is having show what happens when someone shows they take their belief seriously.
    “Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.”

    –Eleanor Roosevelt




  7. #19

    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    As for the original premise, I agree with OP that as a non believer, I feel a certain discomfort when I'm expected to participate or be included in other people's religious practices like team prayers or statements like Harbaugh's that paint every single player, coach, and staff member into the category of "believer" whether they are or not. It creates a feeling of "better play along" that is about as much fun as pretending to enjoy a bad meal to spare a host's feelings.
    I understand the point you are trying to make, and I agree. But is that the case here? Look at the picture. I see about 20 players and 1 or 2 coaches. Ummm...where is everybody else if they are expected to participate? In fact, of those players that are pictured, it looks like only a handful are truly "invested" in what Harbaugh is saying. Most are just standing there. Several have their back to him!!!

    As far as the pre-game prayer. Again, are the players expected to actually participate? Or just be in the room? I suspect some players do pray to God (or their God) for spiritual motivation. Some may meditate. Some may play Grand Theft Auto. As a Christian, doesn't make any difference to me...

    Harbaugh is obviously a religious person..and he brings that to his work. If some want to use that as a validation of their own faith, or if it makes them more of Ravens fan, whatever. Fine with me. But until someone brings me evidence that this in any way impacts how the team is managed, I still say this is much to do about nothing.

    I guess what I'm saying is that if you have faith, great. Enjoy it. But for those of us who don't, it can be very tricky water trying to incorporate religion and secular systems together without leaving someone feeling put out.
    I think it can be tricky for all involved.




  8. #20

    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Well... why else would God help them win over another team doing the same thing?
    That's above my paygrade my friend, and not my argument.

    All I'm saying is that it is implied in the quote is that there is a correlation between belief in a God and outcomes in sports. It doesn't really make a lot of sense to me, just as it doesn't make a lot of sense to JohnBKistler that this would make people who don't share that belief feel uncomfortable.




  9. #21

    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by TheExtraPoint View Post
    All I'm saying is that it is implied in the quote is that there is a correlation between belief in a God and outcomes in sports. It doesn't really make a lot of sense to me, just as it doesn't make a lot of sense to JohnBKistler that this would make people who don't share that belief feel uncomfortable.
    Well, if you are uncomfortable because Harbaugh is outspoken with his religious beliefs, or that he believes "God is in our huddle" (which I think is an incorrect interpretation of what he was saying, but who knows for sure?) I can understand that. Hell, as a Christian, I am uncomfortable with other Christians that feel they need a bull-horn on main street to practice our religion. I am more of a walk-the-walk parishioner.

    If you are uncomfortable because you think that his beliefs are mandated to the team and that non-conformity has consequences. Well, yeah, until someone can provide any sort of evidence to support that claim, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.




  10. #22

    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Sirdowski View Post
    The sentiment "I support others rights to believe what they want" is generally honest, but usually hides the preposition, "as long as they don't take their belief seriously."

    Reactions like the one ExtraPoint is having show what happens when someone shows they take their belief seriously.
    Typical high-minded nonsense. In reality, there's a difference between respecting someone's right to their convictions (whatever their nature) and merely wondering about the implications of interjecting those convictions into what has historically been an areligious arena.

    What would Frank Zappa think?




  11. #23
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    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by TheExtraPoint View Post
    That's above my paygrade my friend, and not my argument.

    All I'm saying is that it is implied in the quote is that there is a correlation between belief in a God and outcomes in sports. It doesn't really make a lot of sense to me, just as it doesn't make a lot of sense to JohnBKistler that this would make people who don't share that belief feel uncomfortable.
    By your take and by mine, I think it's clearly in the interpretation of the quote.

    We all have our bias' and whether you see it or not, you seem to be to read too much into what he's saying, maybe to confirm your bias. What that is I don't know, I could speculate (and of course, I feel I already do know) but lets just not do that for now.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  12. #24
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    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by TheExtraPoint View Post
    Typical high-minded nonsense. In reality, there's a difference between respecting someone's right to their convictions (whatever their nature) and merely wondering about the implications of interjecting those convictions into what has historically been an areligious arena.

    What would Frank Zappa think?
    Not saying you're guilty of this, but What Sir is saying, has clearly been displayed in this thread.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




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