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  1. #25

    Re: Football and Faith



    Speaking on the replies about whether prayers are directed towards swaying the outcome of a game:

    I know that the prayers are not directly saying, "Dear Lord, make us win today!"

    The prayers are well intended usually stating how "we pray you keep both teams safe" and "allow us to play up to our abilities that you have instilled in us."

    I acknowledge that I was off base there.

    I greatly appreciated Coach Harbaugh's remarks about respecting his players rights to believe what they wished and to share their opinions freely. It seems backwards to me that he would then go and turn around to make a blanket statement like this.

    The majority of Ravens players and coaches are probably some form of Christian. But his statement is unfair to those that aren't. It's not a huge deal but it can hurt to feel like you are an outsider because of your beliefs.

    I think there are numerous types of hobbies or activities that are great to be team wide morale builders. I don't think something like religion should be one of those things.

    I guess it comes down to personal preference. My preference is for our favorite team to not alienate anybody, accidental or otherwise.




  2. #26
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    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by JMUpurkfool View Post
    I think there are numerous types of hobbies or activities that are great to be team wide morale builders. I don't think something like religion should be one of those things.
    Maybe it's semantics, but I don't think it's religion specifically. Moreso faith in God or a God, spiritual if you will.

    Not a big deal, just a bit of a literal person.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  3. #27

    Re: Football and Faith

    I appreciate that this has remained pretty respectful. Tough topic obviously.

    There's no hard evidence that the organization would favor a Theist player over an Agnostic or Atheist player.

    I would certainly say that it's possible, even from a subconscious standpoint. Harbaugh, Newsome, and Decosta have been very open about the fact that they look into a players upbringing and background when they are scouting them. They tend to bring in players who have persevered tough times. It's not unthinkable to reason that faith has come up in these conversations before.

    I think that's probably one of the last things they would even consider looking at but if all other things were equal who would Harbaugh be more likely to take?

    This is completely hypothetical but I think it merits discussion.




  4. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Not saying you're guilty of this, but What Sir is saying, has clearly been displayed in this thread.
    By who? One lone nut who was promptly shut down by both sides?
    My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging. -Hank Aaron




  5. #29

    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Maybe it's semantics, but I don't think it's religion specifically. Moreso faith in God or a God, spiritual if you will.

    Not a big deal, just a bit of a literal person.
    I don't think Harbaugh is referring to just any God though. I haven't heard him relate any stories to the media about Muhammad or Krishna. Over the past five years I have heard him recall countless biblical stories in press conferences and locker room speeches.

    I guess I should have put 'Christianity' in place of 'religion'.




  6. #30
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    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by JMUpurkfool View Post
    I don't think Harbaugh is referring to just any God though. I haven't heard him relate any stories to the media about Muhammad or Krishna. Over the past five years I have heard him recall countless biblical stories in press conferences and locker room speeches.

    I guess I should have put 'Christianity' in place of 'religion'.
    Muhammad is a prophet, Muslims and Christian's believe in the same God. Not trying to argue, just trying to stay factual.

    But I haven't heard (not saying there aren't any) of Harbaugh talk about Jesus. My Main point though is there is a difference between between spiritual and religious.

    1. Believe in God
    2. Believe in God and Jesus was His son or b) Believe in God and Mohammed or etc.
    3. Believing in a specific religion, baptist, catholic etc.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  7. #31
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    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    By who? One lone nut who was promptly shut down by both sides?
    Guilty conscience, Spam?
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  8. #32

    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Muhammad is a prophet, Muslims and Christian's believe in the same God. Not trying to argue, just trying to stay factual.

    But I haven't heard (not saying there aren't any) of Harbaugh talk about Jesus. My Main point though is there is a difference between between spiritual and religious.

    1. Believe in God
    2. Believe in God and Jesus was His son or b) Believe in God and Mohammed or etc.
    3. Believing in a specific religion, baptist, catholic etc.
    That is true, but one could reasonably deduce that John was referring to Christian faith based on his constant biblical references.




  9. #33
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    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBKistler View Post
    Until someone can provide me with evidence that a player's faith, or lack thereof, determines whether he is drafted, signed, played, benched or cut, this must remain a baseless claim.
    Please don't put words in my mouth. I made no "claim", not even a conjecture--I simply wondered "out loud" if there is any relationship. Is there any basis for thinking there is? There wasn't until Harbaugh "opened the door" to that sort of speculation by needlessly making the situation so public as to be nearly unavoidable.

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    Please ignore lob, he's making rational unbelievers look like shrill, militant nutters.
    Please ignore ActualSpamBot, he clearly did not understand my post.

    I have no problems with an individual's beliefs so long as he doesn't go out of his/her way to foist them on others. But when the head coach of a sports team that represents my home town (not an avowedly religious institution like Notre Dame or TCU or Southern Methodist) goes out of his way to institute in his operation, not just a spiritual structure but a religious structure associated with one particular religion, and then goes out of his way to publicize it, it is neither "shrill" nor "militant" for a non-believer to express deep misgivings.




  10. #34
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    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Sirdowski View Post
    The sentiment "I support others rights to believe what they want" is generally honest, but usually hides the preposition, "as long as they don't take their belief seriously."

    Reactions like the one ExtraPoint is having show what happens when someone shows they take their belief seriously.
    I think you could change this to.
    "I support others rights to believe what they want" but "as long as they don't ever talk about them in public."
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  11. #35

    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    Please ignore lob, he's making rational unbelievers look like shrill, militant nutters.
    Actually, I agree with him. I think his post is well thought out and written. I do agree that some of his views and/or fears may be on the extreme side of thinking, but what he fears is not unheard of. I certainly hope that these things aren't happening within the organization.




  12. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedSkins Fury View Post
    Actually, I agree with him. I think his post is well thought out and written. I do agree that some of his views and/or fears may be on the extreme side of thinking, but what he fears is not unheard of. I certainly hope that these things aren't happening within the organization.
    I think this reaffirms my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheExtraPoint View Post
    Typical high-minded nonsense. In reality, there's a difference between respecting someone's right to their convictions (whatever their nature) and merely wondering about the implications of interjecting those convictions into what has historically been an areligious arena.

    What would Frank Zappa think?
    I'd say "merely wondering" is an intentional understatement.

    While I find Zappa amusing, he was a sociopath, so I'd say his opinion would be predictable to say the least.
    “Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.”

    –Eleanor Roosevelt




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