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  1. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by darb72 View Post
    After every game I played in high school and college, players from both teams would meet in the middle of the field and pray together. Lob doesn't think we should be allowed to do that.
    Huh? Where the fuck did you pull that from?
    My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging. -Hank Aaron




  2. #50

    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    He also said who we are as a team, not as an organization.

    And I gotta say, to me, while I think the conversation about the subject in general has been a good conversation. But when it comes to comes to what Harbaugh said publicly it's not really a big deal. And what he says is a big (read: not the only part) part of who we are as a team, so anyone not spiritual/religious doesn't have to feel left out. It makes me think of when I sold cars years ago when managers would bitch about shit in meetings "if it doesn't apply, let it fly". If you're not spiritual or religious than pay no mind to what we say...
    Organization and team are synonymous in this situation.




  3. #51
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    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by JMUpurkfool View Post
    Organization and team are synonymous in this situation.
    Did he say organization?
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  4. #52

    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Did he say organization?
    What do you think is the difference?

    The article states that the faith starts at the top with the Head Coach and GM.

    It's semantics anyway.




  5. #53

    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    Huh? Where the fuck did you pull that from?
    From the same place Lob came up with the idea that Harbaugh is going to punish any players for not going to church. Faith was a big part of the teams I played on way back when. Again, notice the words BIG PART OF. As in not the whole thing, just a part. We had atheist folks on those teams and they were our brothers in the trenches.

    When Harbaugh says that faith is a big part of what the Ravens do, I'm perfectly alright with it and doubt anybody is made to feel left out. If memory serves, not to long ago there was a non-starter who spoke publicly about gay marriage. You think Aynowayimspellingthisname would have done that if he thought the team would cut him? In fact, I believe the organization came out and said they supported his right to say what ever the hell he wanted. Now when Harbaugh says that faith is a big part of the team (there's that phrase again) people are crying foul because they hold different view points.

    So yeah, I think Lob has a real problem with anybody saying something that is counter to his beliefs.




  6. #54

    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by lobachevsky View Post
    Typical rightwinger, trying to shove words in my mouth & then crap on me for saying them.

    Matt Stover is by all accounts every bit as devout a Christian as Tim Tebow, but no non-believing Ravens fan I know ever had a problem with him pointing to the sky after every kick & acknowledging the Creator he believes in.

    For every non-believer who (you want to believe) only respects others' beliefs if they never mention them, there are a dozen believers who only respect non-believers' views so long as they can say to themselves "Believe what you will, I'm going to heaven when I die & you're gonna burn in hell." Nice people.

    I don't really care what you believe or how ludicrous it seems to me so long as you treat your fellow man with decency & respect. A lot of people who call themselves Christians are in dire need of a refresher course on just what that means. They ought to start by rereading what their Savior actually said, most especially Matthew 25:31-46.
    Who shoved words in your mouth? You are decrying public acts of faith so it's obvious to everyone what you'd do if you saw players praying after a game.

    Now if you want to watch someone make a mountain out of a molehill, watch this....

    "If you're the 52nd or 53rd guy on the roster, hanging on to your NFL dream for dear life, & you have a philosophical problem with this, the pressure to conform must be immense."

    "What did it accomplish, other than to put even more pressure on any player with reservations to "get with the program"? How can anyone be certain there won't be consequences for those who can't or won't?"

    Wow, whoever said that made a few leaps in logic that defy common sense. I mean they are seriously arguing that because the coach said faith is BIG PART OF the team, anybody who doesn't have faith will be punished. Uh-huh. I take back that original sentence. That's not a leap in logic. That's hopping on an airplane and leaving logic waving sadly on the tarmac wondering if you'll remember to send a postcard.

    As for treating your fellow man with common decency and respect, doesn't that include letting him form his own opinions being allowed to say them out loud?




  7. #55
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    Re: Football and Faith

    Once again, darb72 decides he knows what my words mean & tries to shit on me for it. Maybe he should take a hint from something Artemus Ward (Lincoln's favorite humorist) wrote: “It ain't so much the things we don't know that get us in trouble. It's the things we know that ain't so.”

    I know he's a lost cause, but FTR, as JMUpurkfool pointed out very well above, there is a huuuuge difference between asserting one's faith in God & saying publicly that "it's a big part of who we are as a team."

    Anyone who thinks you can publicly go on record with a statement like that without putting enormous pressure on your players to conform with is, at best, someone who's never found him/herself among people who s/he wanted to bond with (or a boss whom s/he wanted or needed to please) but who believed or acted in ways s/he couldn't agree with.

    In fact, anyone with two brain cells to rub together might wonder if Harbaugh's intent in "going public" with this team-faith notion was to do precisely that--to crank up the pressure on any Raven who hasn't completely bought in.

    "As for treating your fellow man with common decency and respect, doesn't that include letting him form his own opinions being allowed to say them out loud?" IIRC that is guaranteed by the First Amendment, which reads in full: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    Let us note what the Constitution does not guarantee: The right to have what one says taken seriously, or allowed to pass without comment or challenge. Nor the right not to have one's intelligence & personal qualities judged & found wanting based on what one has said. (Here's a quote often attributed [probably wrongly] to Honest Abe: Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.)

    As for praying at the 50-yard line or anywhere else in public, anyone who self-identifies as a Christian might just want to stop & consider what Jesus of Nazareth said about that sort of thing, as recounted in Matthew 6:5-6: And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.

    So many self-identified Christians seem to think more of the petty, rigid, brutal, vengeful acts of the deity depicted in the Old Testament than of what their Savior is reported to have said in the New. No wonder Gandhi said, I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.




  8. #56

    Re: Football and Faith

    I cannot find the exact quotation, but Thomas Jefferson said that religion should be a private domain between a man and his "god". He said it in a letter to a friend. Although Jefferson championed religious tolerance (one of two accomplishments that he wanted people to remember him by), he was very guarded about his religion.

    I know this subject veers from the OP, but bear with me for a minute.

    I do not have a problem if John shared his religious values with anyone, but I have a problem when it is "extended" to others. By that, I meant having an office visibly decorates with biblical anecdotes or such (an office is a public domain, it does not belong to John, but the organization) or hosting a team-wide praying session. I am mindful that these are not (I hope not) mandate, but it is questionable at best when anyone does that in a public domain, especially a leading figure.

    It does not matter semantically whether John did not explicitly espouse his faith to the Ravens organization, but he has repeatedly made constant biblical references or divine being references. In that process, as a leading figure, he did not make it clear that such faith is his, alone, and does not reflect the organization.

    Faith, like politics, should be mentioned minimally not with regularity, especially in a team setting (such as press conferences, locker rooms, et cetera). He can talk about that front of his house or church for all that I care, but not with the Ravens logo anywhere behind and/on him, please.




  9. #57

    Re: Football and Faith

    Loba,

    I liked your recent post, and it resonates well with me, especially with the Gandhi reference.

    Off the point, I wonder if the Christians would actually believe in their Christ if the Christ appears before them? or would they condemn their "Christ" as the "Christ" was during his life?

    That is another discussion, but anyway... .that was a great post, really.




  10. #58
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    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by JMUpurkfool View Post
    What do you think is the difference?

    The article states that the faith starts at the top with the Head Coach and GM.

    It's semantics anyway.
    The only reason I pointed it out is because, you said he was talking about the team, and then people in the organization, which is the difference, team = players, organization = players, front office, scouts, etc.

    Not a big deal he just said team, not organization.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  11. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by lobachevsky View Post

    In fact, anyone with two brain cells to rub together might wonder if Harbaugh's intent in "going public" with this team-faith notion was to do precisely that--to crank up the pressure on any Raven who hasn't completely bought in.
    Seriously dude, appealing to conspiracy?

    I bet that's what the famous Harbaugh doghouse is about too. Guys who wouldn't say their hail Mary's at practice. Damn heathens get what they deserve.
    “Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.”

    –Eleanor Roosevelt




  12. #60
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    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Random Thoughts View Post
    Loba,

    I liked your recent post, and it resonates well with me, especially with the Gandhi reference.

    Off the point, I wonder if the Christians would actually believe in their Christ if the Christ appears before them? or would they condemn their "Christ" as the "Christ" was during his life?
    Christ does appear before us every day in different shapes and forms, not physically but thru signs and circumstances. In my own life he just answered a major prayer dealing with a health issue. In my brother's case where he lost his church after pastoring it for 23 years, he was forced out of the house where he was getting free rent for 3 years by the town vet. He sold it to the Amish and they wanted to be in by Christmas. Both he and his wife work and had no time to look for a house but God led them to a beautiful home. It will be the first home they ever owned because they lived in the parsonage free of rent for 23 years. God answered both our prayers in timely fashion.

    Christ did appear before the Christians that believed in him at the time. He healed the sick, cured the lame and raised the dead. They saw these miracles and believed. The Pharisees did not and crucified him.

    When he rose he said you believe because you see, blessed are those who believe but cannot see.

    That's us.

    I joked in here and in person that I'd be one of the Christians in heaven by the skin of my teeth and I'd probably lose any crowns I earned because of some bad stuff. After God just answered this monumental prayer, I no longer worry about being in heaven like that because if he's still answering my prayers and taking care of me than he still loves me and I'm going to be a lot higher in heaven than hanging by the skin of my teeth and I'll keep some of those crowns to boot.
    Last edited by AirFlacco; 12-01-2012 at 05:10 PM.
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