Overpaying Flacco could sink the Ravens

**Paintballguy** · 12-05-2012, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by Jsmoove

Ravens fucked up on this one for years we never had a decent QB so we don't know how to handle these situation its like Wicked said a few post back, they don't know what they have with Joe, under Cam system joe doesn't fit, now its his contract year under the same system and he has regressed, now they don't know what he could have looked like in other system to further evaluate if this is the real Joe or is there more to Joe. They should have shit canned Cam last season and go with someone new that way they could see where they are at with Joe. Now the question is what are they going to do, they got some tough decisions to make, Ed Reed could be gone, Ray could be gone, Jones, Boldin and then they have the unkown of Flacco can he get better with a new system? or is he going be the same ole average Joe?

Agreed. They really screwed up by not canning Cameron last year. I wanted them to take a look at Bruce Arians and look at what he is doing in Indy now.

**Raveninwoodlawn** · 12-05-2012, 09:09 AM

IMHO, the Ravens royally fucked themselves by not firing Cam 2 years ago.

There is an underlying belief (a strong one by many fans on this board) that Joe just isn't going to get any better under this system with Cam. That's really all it is though...belief.

They had a chance to really see what they have a couple years ago...to see for sure. Personally, while I think Cam is holding Joe back to a degree, I also think that Joe has some real imitations. That said, now the team is really backed into a corner here.

This isn't the Chargers situation where they could let go of an above average Drew Brees (that's really all he was at the time). They had invested a top 4 pick for Rivers who had sat for 2 years in preparation for the starting job.

We don't have anybody and would likely have to go with freaking Tyrod Taylor or a random rookie who wouldn't be a high draft pick.

So they have to sign him and he has the organization by the balls and they know it...and it's all their fault.

**Captain Silver** · 12-05-2012, 09:18 AM

Non-story. Joe has shown the brilliance to win games despite the idiot Harbaugh and his lackey Cam Cameron.

Hopefully we will get coaching here that has no fear to pull the trigger. Peyton Manning would look like shit under this regime.

**NCRAVEN** · 12-05-2012, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by Captain Silver

Non-story. Joe has shown the brilliance to win games despite the idiot Harbaugh and his lackey Cam Cameron.

Hopefully we will get coaching here that has no fear to pull the trigger. Peyton Manning would look like shit under this regime.

I don't think anyone could really argue against this. I mean Manning might make a few better decisions here and there, like choosing not to throw a deep ball, but everytime I see Joe chuck one deep, no one is really open underneath.

**JohnBKistler** · 12-05-2012, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn

They had a chance to really see what they have a couple years ago...to see for sure. Personally, while I think Cam is holding Joe back to a degree, I also think that Joe has some real imitations. That said, now the team is really backed into a corner here.

Just thinking out loud....but is it possible the Ravens feel they already know what they have in Flacco? An above-average QB that is prone to maddeningly inconsistent performances?

It seems like the premise is that the Ravens have this big decision to make. Maybe they've already made it ("right player, right price") and they are more than prepared to move along without him next season. Remember, this is an organization (general manager) that felt confident enough with giving one first year head coach Scott Mitchell and Tony Banks, and another first year head coach Kyle Boller and Troy Smith.

**Dirt1** · 12-05-2012, 09:29 AM

IMO, the Ravens are going to franchise Flacco, and then wait to see what kind of money other QBs like Cutler and Matt Ryan get. Ryan is not a FA until 2014, but the speculation is that the Falcons are going to extend him this off-season. The Ravens can overpay Flacco to a point, but if he wants Top 3 QB money, they have to be prepared to move on from him.

**Terpsfan82** · 12-05-2012, 09:29 AM

There are only two quarterbacks in the league who wouldn't look lost in this offense, IMO. Peyton (who would morph the offense into his own version) and Rodgers. Flacco is not good enough to do what they want him to do, which is, run Cam's system and be consistent. But that's not an indictment. Like I said earlier, I believe there are only 2 quarterbacks who can. On the other hand, Harbaugh (and Cam to some degree, but mainly Harbaugh, since he's the HC) is not good enough to coach his franchise quarterback up to the level needed to win a Super Bowl. And there are at least 12 head coaches who could. So to me it isn't a question of over paying Flacco. It's a question of determining if he has the right people around him and then deciding what to do about it.

**Corey** · 12-05-2012, 09:31 AM

I made this same argument in another thread. Flacco is to good a player and difficult to replace for the Ravens to just let him walk. But he's not so good that you can tie a significant portion of your cap and him, which keeps you from upgrading the players around him. Flacco needs a good team to succeed. He's not going to put the team on his shoulders and carry them like Brees or Brady. And that's ok. The problem, when it all boils down to it, is Flacco's opinion of himself and his abilities is far higher than what it actually is.

Flacco is on pace to throw for what 25 TD's. If your paying 18 million a year, you have to get more than that.

**Dirt1** · 12-05-2012, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by Corey

I made this same argument in another thread. Flacco is to good a player and difficult to replace for the Ravens to just let him walk. But he's not so good that you can tie a significant portion of your cap and him, which keeps you from upgrading the players around him. Flacco needs a good team to succeed. He's not going to put the team on his shoulders and carry them like Brees or Brady. And that's ok. The problem, when it all boils down to it, is Flacco's opinion of himself and his abilities is far higher than what it actually is.

Flacco is on pace to throw for what 25 TD's. If your paying 18 million a year, you have to get more than that.

According to ESPN, Flacco is ranked #19 in the league so far this year in terms of passing stats. IMO, Flacco would need to rank a lot higher than that to justify kind of money he wants. If the Ravens want to be a run-first/balanced offense, then do they really need a $100+ million QB?

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/pl...rterbackRating

**ravensnhokies** · 12-05-2012, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by TL24x7

Some would say that the coaching staff has held Flacco back – specifically Cam Cameron. On the surface it’s hard to argue with that but might there be a reason that the team has held Flacco back? Does the coaching staff see his limitations and therefore they dummy down the offense?

While most will tag Cameron with a plethora of disparaging nicknames, some of which can’t even be printed here, let’s face it, the guy knows more about football than 99% of the fans out there. This has been his life for nearly 30 years and even if he was a 1-15, one year and done head coach, he was one of only 32 coaches of his kind at one point in his career.

So it stands to reason that he is aware of how this is going down, right?

And if he’s not, Cameron’s boss John Harbaugh has to see the problems, right? How could he accept such ongoing offensive inconsistencies unless he is ok with the way things are being handled?

Clearly there’s a major disconnect.

So how do you gauge Flacco’s market value?

Continue reading HERE

The argument of Cam/Harbs seeing something in Flacco that would force them to dummy things down pisses me off the most out of everything. Every #1 QB must be afforded an opportunity to run the full playbook, and fail, or else THERE WILL NEVER BE PROGRESS OR DEVELOPMENT. I agree that you may hold stuff back in rookie and 2nd yr, but no way do you it now in Flaccos case. QBs learn from their mistakes. The great ones don't make them again. The shit QBs continue making them again. Maybe Joe would continue to make those mistakes, but at least then, they wouldve determine his true value as a starting QB. How can you truly determine Flacco's worth if they've held stuff back. Another reason why Cam and Harbs should be fired.

I dont think they've held stuff back. When did Cam ever have a different system? Never. Cam is shit and if Harbs doesnt get rid of him soon, he is shit too.

**TL24x7** · 12-05-2012, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn

IMHO, the Ravens royally fucked themselves by not firing Cam 2 years ago.

There is an underlying belief (a strong one by many fans on this board) that Joe just isn't going to get any better under this system with Cam. That's really all it is though...belief.

They had a chance to really see what they have a couple years ago...to see for sure. Personally, while I think Cam is holding Joe back to a degree, I also think that Joe has some real imitations. That said, now the team is really backed into a corner here.

This isn't the Chargers situation where they could let go of an above average Drew Brees (that's really all he was at the time). They had invested a top 4 pick for Rivers who had sat for 2 years in preparation for the starting job.

We don't have anybody and would likely have to go with freaking Tyrod Taylor or a random rookie who wouldn't be a high draft pick.

So they have to sign him and he has the organization by the balls and they know it...and it's all their fault.

Great post....couldn't agree more!

**TL24x7** · 12-05-2012, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Dirt1

According to ESPN, Flacco is ranked #19 in the league so far this year in terms of passing stats. IMO, Flacco would need to rank a lot higher than that to justify kind of money he wants. If the Ravens want to be a run-first/balanced offense, then do they really need a $100+ million QB?

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/pl...rterbackRating

Exactly what I speak to in the column. If the Ravens want an effective game manager, ok...then get one. But don't pay a game manager Top 5 QB money. You will crush the equitable distribution of cap dollars.

**leachisabeast** · 12-05-2012, 11:27 AM

I know that everyone is anti Ozzie lately, but I think what Ozzie did was offer Joe a contract that seemed right for purely how Joe has played so far (not sure of that sum, but I'd guess anywhere between 70 and 90 million) but Joe wants more because of the wins that his team has had over the years.

Look, Joe is a good QB, above average for sure, but he isn't elite and never will be. Maybe he could have been better, and maybe his ceiling could have been higher had the coaching staff put him in a more QB friendly system, and I do put some blame on Steve and Ozzie for not cutting bait with Cam back in 2010. Cam is good for a young developmental QB, but after that, you really need to keep Cam away from a franchise QB.

I heard the franchise tag is more in the range of 14-15 million in 2013, so we will just have to bite the bullet and pay that while seeing how he does working under a better OC. The team is going to need to bring in some guys in the offseason to help this team though, we need to upgrade our Oline and front 7, and make them what they used to be.

**Paintballguy** · 12-05-2012, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

I heard the franchise tag is more in the range of 14-15 million in 2013, so we will just have to bite the bullet and pay that while seeing how he does working under a better OC. The team is going to need to bring in some guys in the offseason to help this team though, we need to upgrade our Oline and front 7, and make them what they used to be.

I think the franchise tag is the best option. It is a lot of money, but it buys time and a team could offer Flacco a contract and they'd have to give the Ravens 2 1st round picks.

**JohnBKistler** · 12-05-2012, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by Paintballguy

I think the franchise tag is the best option. It is a lot of money, but it buys time and a team could offer Flacco a contract and they'd have to give the Ravens 2 1st round picks.

I believe Al Davis died last year.

**Paintballguy** · 12-05-2012, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by JohnBKistler

I believe Al Davis died last year.

lol good point

**Shambla** · 12-05-2012, 12:01 PM

My approach would be to franchise Joe and fire Cam. You might have to blow up the team a little to afford the tag but I think most of us would be fine if it meant that we would move past being a bridesmaid every year.

You work with Joe in the offseason to see what kind of system he would be most effective in (just about any other) and hire a coach who can compliment him. I would use the next year to judge him for long term purpose - which, although it may seem unfair to judge him on one year, I feel as though he's eroded my confidence with these kind of numbers:

12th Yards
18th Yards/Attempt
19th Touchdowns
19th Passer Rating
23rd Completion Pct.
6th Most Sacked

**bmorecareful** · 12-05-2012, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Paintballguy

I think the franchise tag is the best option. It is a lot of money, but it buys time and a team could offer Flacco a contract and they'd have to give the Ravens 2 1st round picks.

Washington gave up more than that to get Robert Griffin III, a guy who had never even taken an NFL snap, much less led his team within a dropped pass of the Super Bowl. (Obviously they don't regret it now because RGIII certainly appears to be a franchise QB.)

Buffalo, New York (Jets), Kansas City, Arizona, and Jacksonville would all give up 2 first rounders in a heartbeat to acquire Flacco, and he would probably instantly make Arizona the favorite to win their division in 2013.

It doesn't matter though, because if Flacco gets tagged, he will get the EXCLUSIVE tag and no other team would be able to sign him to an offer sheet.

**RavensQB** · 12-05-2012, 12:06 PM

The one thing that is SINKING this team right now is Managment!!!

From top to bottom.

From the Biscuit to the lowest coach on the totem pole.

The whole thing about Harbs almost losing the team and having the meeting that put it all back together.....

The real question is how did it get to that point?

It was so interesting that 1 Winning Drive showed Q telling CAM that the middle of the field is wide open. CAM with the befuddled look and saying Really?!?!

I wish I could have been there to say. Yeah fuckwad just like every other game this year, last year, etc etc etc.

**Bhcforlife** · 12-05-2012, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by NCRAVEN

I don't think anyone could really argue against this. I mean Manning might make a few better decisions here and there, like choosing not to throw a deep ball, but everytime I see Joe chuck one deep, no one is really open underneath.

Did Drew Brees and Phillip Rivers look like shit under Cameron when they had the Chargers offense ranked #3, #5, and #1 in the league from 2004-2006?

Just think about that. As recently as 2006, Cameron's so called "ancient" offense was the top offense in the league and scored nearly 70 points more than the next closest team. Are we really sure that Cameron (and Joe, for that matter) are the problem and not the man at the top...?