Cam Cameron (10 years)

**Sua Sponte** · 12-07-2012, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Haloti92

He mentioned it as a hypothetical achievement that you would recognize/credit in order to compare it to the actual achievement (their awesome running game/stats) that you seemed to be dismissing. He is saying both the achievements should be considered equal yet you are arguing like they are not.

Again I never dismissed the running game. I said that his success was from the running game... and it has seemed to disappear around these parts.
I could care less if Flacco throws 30td's for 4,000yds. If the running game is dominated so be it, but don't ignore it and don't forgot about the guy several times in certain games that we always seem to lose. His game plans suck and he can not adjust in game, if he adjust in game it is to go pass happy with long developing routes.

**RavensRule21215** · 12-07-2012, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Sua Sponte

Again I never dismissed the running game. I said that his success was from the running game... and it has seemed to disappear around these parts.
I could care less if Flacco throws 30td's for 4,000yds. If the running game is dominated so be it, but don't ignore it and don't forgot about the guy several times in certain games that we always seem to lose. His game plans suck and he can not adjust in game, if he adjust in game it is to go pass happy with long developing routes.

I could be wrong but it seems as if your point is that Cam Cameron, over the years, and even with mad talent at his disposal, has basically put up average numbers as an offensive coordinator. And that given the talent at his disposal, the net result is that he, in reality, is a below average offensive coordinator. (I'm not trying to put words into your mouth; that's just my take on what you've posted.)

**Sua Sponte** · 12-07-2012, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by RavensRule21215

I could be wrong but it seems as if your point is that Cam Cameron, over the years, and even with mad talent at his disposal, has basically put up average numbers as an offensive coordinator. And that given the talent at his disposal, the net result is that he, in reality, is a below average offensive coordinator. (I'm not trying to put words into your mouth; that's just my take on what you've posted.)

Correct...

He had a few good years in SD with Marty, but he rode the back of a Hall of Fame RB and a dominant TE. He forgot what his success was built on. The old school run the ball down your throat with a TE to make you pay when you cheat to play the run.
With new rules and a Pass happy league he needs to change that a bit and he does not have the knowledge to do so apparently. His philosophy and the way he develops his routes are still that of the running game, screen passes and dump offs, rounding off routes instead of cuts and breaks make it easier for a WR to block down field.

**Kevlar** · 12-07-2012, 12:06 PM

Cam didn't run the offense in SD. It was Marty's offense, the same one he ran in Cleveland.

Shottenheimer was very conventional. Run Run Pass Punt. Cam seems to go out of his way to do the exact opposite of what a normal play caller would do.

**rharris1986** · 12-07-2012, 12:08 PM

Before San Diego Cam spent five years as the head coach of Indiana University - where he went 18W and 37L - before they fired him!

**Jsmoove** · 12-07-2012, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by rharris1986

Before San Diego Cam spent five years as the head coach of Indiana University - where he went 18W and 37L - before they fired him!

who the fuck did he frame or suck to get in the NFL?

**Kevlar** · 12-07-2012, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Jsmoove

who the fuck did he frame or suck to get in the NFL?

I'm sure he is a very nice man and a great friend. In certain circles that means a lot more than being competent. You never heard of the good old boys? I've witnesses that management strategy run a very successful corporation straight into the ground.

**Haloti92** · 12-07-2012, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Sua Sponte

Again I never dismissed the running game. I said that his success was from the running game... and it has seemed to disappear around these parts.
I could care less if Flacco throws 30td's for 4,000yds. If the running game is dominated so be it, but don't ignore it and don't forgot about the guy several times in certain games that we always seem to lose. His game plans suck and he can not adjust in game, if he adjust in game it is to go pass happy with long developing routes.

Hey, I generally agree with you. I was a Cameron critic long before it was trendy around here.

And I wasn't even looking at the stats, I was just looking at how many different varieties of plays and formations and routes/runs that other teams (almost every other team) use that don't even seem to be in our play book. To me stats are not as important as this. If I see this predictability/simplicity every game and the stats show Cameron's offense is 10th, then I conclude it could/should be 5th if the offense were more like other offenses, etc. If it's 5th looking like this, then I think it could be 1st if like others. If it is 1st like this than I think it could be 1st and even more dominant like others. So to me, stats aren't that big of a deal.

But I also do somewhat agree with RavensNTerps about people's automatic assumption that Joe is a great QB being shackled by Cameron. It may be true, it may not be true, but too many people talk as if it is not only true but clearly proven (how, I have no idea).

It may be a case, especially if you assume that our vanilla offense is partly the way it is because it is "safe," that some QBs would look worse in other, riskier, more complicated, offenses than they do in Cam's (if they can't handle the quick decision-making or pre-snap reads required to run, say, a Patriots offense). Or they might look the same in Cam's as others, if they are average at the mental aspects of the game. Or of course, if they are supremely talented in all aspects of the position, they might indeed look better in other offenses (explode, even) than they do in Cam's rudimentary offense. I don't think we can safely assume that the safe, vanilla automatically is harming the QB's stats or performance. It may be it may not be.

All that said, I think the Joe-Cam stagnation (if not regression) over the least two years means we need to change up that duo. Since good QBs (let alone potentially great QBs) are infinitely harder to find than semi-accomplished OCs, Cam should be shown the door. At that point we can see how much each of those two were responsible for our "average" offense.

**Kevlar** · 12-07-2012, 12:17 PM

Well if Cam is throwing the ball 60 percent of the time he is giving Joe every opportunity to shine. Shottenheimer never ran that kind of offense. Because without a Peyton Manning it isn't going to work. Its almost like he is setting Joe up for failure with such an unbalanced scheme.

**Haloti92** · 12-07-2012, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by Kevlar

Well if Cam is throwing the ball 60 percent of the time he is giving Joe every opportunity to shine. Shottenheimer never ran that kind of offense. Because without a Peyton Manning it isn't going to work. Its almost like he is setting Joe up for failure with such an unbalanced scheme.

I agree the number attempts are not the issue in the way the 49ers are "safe" with Alex Smith. But I think the pass routes and pass plays are "safe" in the sense they don't require too much decision-making and they avoid the areas of the field where a mis-read can easily turn into an INT.

So to me, even if we threw every down, the design and risk-averseness and simplicity of the pass plays themselves could hold back a QB who otherwise would thrive (assuming the QB could handle the extra risk and responisibilty without making so many mistakes as to lead to worse results).

So I agree, Cam would need to change everything if he wants a pass-happy offense (which he seems to be okay with). Using a Martyball playbook but throwing it more times than running it isn't the solution.

**Kevlar** · 12-07-2012, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Haloti92

I agree the number attempts are not the issue in the way the 49ers are "safe" with Alex Smith. But I think the pass routes and pass plays are "safe" in the sense they don't require too much decision-making and they avoid the areas of the field where a mis-read can easily turn into an INT. So to me, even if we threw every down, the design and risk-averse and simplicity of the pass plays themselves could hold back a QB who otherwise would thrive (assuming the QB could handle the extra risk and responisibilty without making so many mistakes as to lead to worse results)

Right, and the simple play design means the defense knows where the receivers are going. They can sit on the routes, which is why Joe is turning into Captain Checkdown.

**RavensRule21215** · 12-07-2012, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by Kevlar

Cam didn't run the offense in SD. It was Marty's offense, the same one he ran in Cleveland.

Shottenheimer was very conventional. Run Run Pass Punt. Cam seems to go out of his way to do the exact opposite of what a normal play caller would do.

From what I'd read, Cam actually ran Norv Turner's offense that was implemented in 2001, the year before Cameron arrived in SD. And I've seen news reports in which Cameron stated categorically that it was his offense, not Marty's. That's not to say there wasn't a blending or overlapping of the two styles, though.

**RavensRule21215** · 12-07-2012, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by Kevlar

Well if Cam is throwing the ball 60 percent of the time he is giving Joe every opportunity to shine. Shottenheimer never ran that kind of offense. Because without a Peyton Manning it isn't going to work. Its almost like he is setting Joe up for failure with such an unbalanced scheme.

So in reality, he's not giving Joe every opportunity to shine; he's giving Joe every opportunity to fail.

**RavensQB** · 12-07-2012, 02:04 PM

Ok ok ok.

CAM S U C K S!!!
That is all.

**RavensQB** · 12-07-2012, 02:20 PM

@jeffzrebiecsun: In last 3 games, #Ravens have run just 5 total plays out of no-huddle, according to game books. Flacco would like to do it more. [Twitter]

Wow WTF?!?!?!?!

**RavensRule21215** · 12-07-2012, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by RavensQB

Ok ok ok.

CAM S U C K S!!!
That is all.

Best damn sig I've ever seen!

**LukeDaniel** · 12-07-2012, 02:51 PM

A better question this year is the impact that the Cameron/Flacco deep passing game has made on the defense. It seems like we either score quickly or take under two minutes off the clock with a 3-and-out. There really have been very few sustained drives of 5 minutes+.

He's a bad O.C. I don't see how you can debate that. Our offense is predictable and stale. Yet, until we see how our group performs under a different coordinator, it's hard to evaluate his level of badness. Maybe the next guy comes in with the same group and does even worse and suddenly we are referring to Cam as mediocre. Maybe the next guy comes in and gives Rice/Pierce the ball 28 times/game over the season and runs the ball on 3rd and 2 more than twice a year and we move into the top 10 in points AND yards and Cam looks all the more unqualified.

We really don't know how bad he truly is, but we do know he is predictable and damagingly stubborn.

**Paintballguy** · 12-07-2012, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by RavensQB

Wow WTF?!?!?!?!

Here is Jeff's response to me asking why the ravens have abandoned the no huddle.

@jeffzrebiecsun: @bdubsqrd They're saying they haven't and it is dictated by teams that they're playing.

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**Jsmoove** · 12-07-2012, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by Paintballguy

Here is Jeff's response to me asking why the ravens have abandoned the no huddle.

@jeffzrebiecsun: @bdubsqrd They're saying they haven't and it is dictated by teams that they're playing.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

epic fail by harbaugh and cam, you think NE gives a shit who they play to make that team dictate what the hell they wanna do? this is difference bewteen great coaches and good coaches. Great coaches make teams adjust to what they are doing and if they do then they make their adjustments and counter. If you already go into a game thinking about how teams are going to dictate what your doing then you already lost 3/4 of the battle.

**Paintballguy** · 12-07-2012, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by Jsmoove

epic fail by harbaugh and cam, you think NE gives a shit who they play to make that team dictate what the hell they wanna do? this is difference bewteen great coaches and good coaches. Great coaches make teams adjust to what they are doing and if they do then they make their adjustments and counter. If you already go into a game thinking about how teams are going to dictate what your doing then you already lost 3/4 of the battle.

Ding good teams impose their will. It's just ridiculous that the no huddle was unstoppable at times and they just stop using it.

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