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  1. #1705

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread



    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Why?

    Why are you guys so down on Pitta?

    I'm all for a game changer, but the Ravens don't necessarily have an issue with a receiving TE so much as they have an issue with a TE who can block...as in they currently don't have one. When I see Williams, I see a guy who can block AND brings an added value as a decent receiver.

    Listen, I'm not saying that Pitta can or will ever be Jimmy Graham or Gronk, but Pitta can easily be a 60-70 reception TE. No doubt about it.

    I said it when he was in college and I'll say it again, I think Pitta could be a lot like Dallas Clark and I think that's how Caldwell is going to use him.
    I'm not down on Pitta at all. I'm actually so high on Pitta that I think the team should try to extend him this offseason. I also see the Dallas Clark comparison and agree to a certain extent... bottom line, Pitta's going to be around a while. Drafting an athletic mismatch TE isn't incompatible with Pitta sticking around at all, though.

    The thing is, the Ravens are in a state of transition right now when it comes to the offense. What do they want to be long-term? If Caldwell is going to run the system he used at Wake Forest and the system the Colts ran when he was there, it's not going to feature a fullback; it's going to be either base 2TE or 3WR. If they go 2TE a lot they already have a nice "move" TE in Pitta... he can move all around the formation, play H-Back, slot, out wide, etc. Remember what Pitta was when he was at BYU... he was primarily a slot receiver. That seems to be his comfort zone.

    What the Ravens DON'T have is a guy who can play the traditional in-line TE role. Pitta is a bit small for that at 6'4 245, he doesn't block well, and he doesn't seem super comfortable getting jammed by LBs at the LOS. My personal opinion is that the Ravens drafted Dickson and Pitta, who were basically the same type of player in college ("tight ends" in name only, mostly slot receivers), and hoped that one of them would adjust to playing on the line. Neither of them did but they've kind of forced Dickson into the role to not much success. I think Ed's days in purple are numbered because of that... he's the same player Pitta is, but not as tough or sure-handed.

    If the Ravens went out and got a Zach Ertz, Gavin Escobar, or Tyler Eifert, all of those guys played in-line TE in college. All of them are used to playing next to the offensive tackle although Eifert is the only one of the three who's a good blocker at this point in his development. I just think that kind of pick makes a ton of sense if you want to surround your franchise QB with deadly weapons without losing too much in the run game.

    This is the formula the Patriots are using now with Hernandez and Gronkowski... we have our Hernandez but need our Gronkowski. Williams is a good blocker but he's no Gronkowski.




  2. #1706

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    I'm not down on Pitta at all. I'm actually so high on Pitta that I think the team should try to extend him this offseason. I also see the Dallas Clark comparison and agree to a certain extent... bottom line, Pitta's going to be around a while. Drafting an athletic mismatch TE isn't incompatible with Pitta sticking around at all, though.

    The thing is, the Ravens are in a state of transition right now when it comes to the offense. What do they want to be long-term? If Caldwell is going to run the system he used at Wake Forest and the system the Colts ran when he was there, it's not going to feature a fullback; it's going to be either base 2TE or 3WR. If they go 2TE a lot they already have a nice "move" TE in Pitta... he can move all around the formation, play H-Back, slot, out wide, etc. Remember what Pitta was when he was at BYU... he was primarily a slot receiver. That seems to be his comfort zone.

    What the Ravens DON'T have is a guy who can play the traditional in-line TE role. Pitta is a bit small for that at 6'4 245, he doesn't block well, and he doesn't seem super comfortable getting jammed by LBs at the LOS. My personal opinion is that the Ravens drafted Dickson and Pitta, who were basically the same type of player in college ("tight ends" in name only, mostly slot receivers), and hoped that one of them would adjust to playing on the line. Neither of them did but they've kind of forced Dickson into the role to not much success. I think Ed's days in purple are numbered because of that... he's the same player Pitta is, but not as tough or sure-handed.

    If the Ravens went out and got a Zach Ertz, Gavin Escobar, or Tyler Eifert, all of those guys played in-line TE in college. All of them are used to playing next to the offensive tackle although Eifert is the only one of the three who's a good blocker at this point in his development. I just think that kind of pick makes a ton of sense if you want to surround your franchise QB with deadly weapons without losing too much in the run game.

    This is the formula the Patriots are using now with Hernandez and Gronkowski... we have our Hernandez but need our Gronkowski. Williams is a good blocker but he's no Gronkowski.
    Actually ERTZ is considered the better blocker of the two (Ertz and Eifert) Both are can't misses, IMO. Both beasts.




  3. #1707
    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Why?

    Why are you guys so down on Pitta?

    I'm all for a game changer, but the Ravens don't necessarily have an issue with a receiving TE so much as they have an issue with a TE who can block...as in they currently don't have one. When I see Williams, I see a guy who can block AND brings an added value as a decent receiver.

    Listen, I'm not saying that Pitta can or will ever be Jimmy Graham or Gronk, but Pitta can easily be a 60-70 reception TE. No doubt about it.

    I said it when he was in college and I'll say it again, I think Pitta could be a lot like Dallas Clark and I think that's how Caldwell is going to use him.
    Whoa... Hold on lol... I've been trumpeting Pitta since I saw his BYU tape in 2009. I was happy as hell when we got him. He's going to be my favorite Raven if Ed moves on.

    I was just laying out the only condition under which I would be happy with Willams. That's why I said "if for some reason".
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  4. #1708

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Boulderraven View Post
    Kelly, you heard it hear first will not be a good fit in the NFL. If he goes up tempo all the time in the NFL, he will wear his OWN defense down in Philly. That system just wont work in the NFL, JMO. In college, his passers wont have the huge windows to convert the the 3rd down throws in the weak defensive PAC12. He may be dealing with alot of 3rd down conversion opportunities that he didnt have to deal with in college or big plays.
    Idk if he's gonna work at the NFL level or not, but i think with guys that make that jump they have to be humble and willing to except outside input. I've heard he's willing to do that and the Shurmur hire shows it as well. By all accounts he's a very bright guy, we'll just have to see, but i think he has a shot.




  5. #1709
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Fans constantly underestimate their own players. I actually think Pitta is better than Hernandez, sure he isn't Grontkowski, but he's on his way to becoming a very good TE, he's essentially a bigger version of Aaron Hernandez. What we need is a Tyler Eifert to work with him in a two TE set, because Pitta is a receiving TE, while Tyler can block and receive, or maybe we just need a real blocking TE who can also catch, Michael Williams could be that guy.




  6. #1710

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    williams will pretty much be the replacement for billy bajema and or leach




  7. #1711
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    We definitely need a blocking te that can catch. Doesn't have to be amazing in the pass game just serviceable.


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  8. #1712
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BigPlayReceiver View Post
    Whoa... Hold on lol... I've been trumpeting Pitta since I saw his BYU tape in 2009. I was happy as hell when we got him. He's going to be my favorite Raven if Ed moves on.

    I was just laying out the only condition under which I would be happy with Willams. That's why I said "if for some reason".
    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    I'm not down on Pitta at all. I'm actually so high on Pitta that I think the team should try to extend him this offseason. I also see the Dallas Clark comparison and agree to a certain extent... bottom line, Pitta's going to be around a while. Drafting an athletic mismatch TE isn't incompatible with Pitta sticking around at all, though.

    The thing is, the Ravens are in a state of transition right now when it comes to the offense. What do they want to be long-term? If Caldwell is going to run the system he used at Wake Forest and the system the Colts ran when he was there, it's not going to feature a fullback; it's going to be either base 2TE or 3WR. If they go 2TE a lot they already have a nice "move" TE in Pitta... he can move all around the formation, play H-Back, slot, out wide, etc. Remember what Pitta was when he was at BYU... he was primarily a slot receiver. That seems to be his comfort zone.

    What the Ravens DON'T have is a guy who can play the traditional in-line TE role. Pitta is a bit small for that at 6'4 245, he doesn't block well, and he doesn't seem super comfortable getting jammed by LBs at the LOS. My personal opinion is that the Ravens drafted Dickson and Pitta, who were basically the same type of player in college ("tight ends" in name only, mostly slot receivers), and hoped that one of them would adjust to playing on the line. Neither of them did but they've kind of forced Dickson into the role to not much success. I think Ed's days in purple are numbered because of that... he's the same player Pitta is, but not as tough or sure-handed.

    If the Ravens went out and got a Zach Ertz, Gavin Escobar, or Tyler Eifert, all of those guys played in-line TE in college. All of them are used to playing next to the offensive tackle although Eifert is the only one of the three who's a good blocker at this point in his development. I just think that kind of pick makes a ton of sense if you want to surround your franchise QB with deadly weapons without losing too much in the run game.

    This is the formula the Patriots are using now with Hernandez and Gronkowski... we have our Hernandez but need our Gronkowski. Williams is a good blocker but he's no Gronkowski.
    From my perspective, I just don't see the point in taking another receiving TE who has questionable blocking ability unless Eiffert drops in round 1 or possibly even round 2 (doubtful). Unless that happens, I'd rather seem them target receivers and look later in the draft to take maybe a more well-rounded player instead of a guy who is predominately a wide receiver in a 250lb body. Sure, I'd love to see what Caldwell could do with a guy like Gronk or Graham, but I really like Pitta and I think he is a good fit for this offense. I just like the idea of getting a guy like Michael Williams because he basically allows you to go into the season with two TE's. Pitta as the receiving/slot TE and Williams as the blocking TE/receiver on certain plays. Having a dual-capability TE opens up the roster for possibly another LB, pass rushing specialist, or maybe even another receiver who has promise, but is on the fringe (Deonte Thompson? Tommy Streeter?).

    That's just how I'm looking at it.
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  9. #1713
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JCroUSAF View Post
    williams will pretty much be the replacement for billy bajema and or leach
    I was thinking more along the lines of being able to fill Dickson's spot and Bajema's spot.

    Dickson may eventually "get it", but I don't see it. I don't see the value in the guy. He's just not very good.
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  10. #1714

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    From my perspective, I just don't see the point in taking another receiving TE who has questionable blocking ability unless Eiffert drops in round 1 or possibly even round 2 (doubtful). Unless that happens, I'd rather seem them target receivers and look later in the draft to take maybe a more well-rounded player instead of a guy who is predominately a wide receiver in a 250lb body. Sure, I'd love to see what Caldwell could do with a guy like Gronk or Graham, but I really like Pitta and I think he is a good fit for this offense. I just like the idea of getting a guy like Michael Williams because he basically allows you to go into the season with two TE's. Pitta as the receiving/slot TE and Williams as the blocking TE/receiver on certain plays. Having a dual-capability TE opens up the roster for possibly another LB, pass rushing specialist, or maybe even another receiver who has promise, but is on the fringe (Deonte Thompson? Tommy Streeter?).

    That's just how I'm looking at it.
    I get what you're saying, but the whole reason why I don't see Leach being back next year is that he's not a dynamic player. When he's in the game it's probably going to be a run right behind him, and if it's not, maybe he'll leak out to the flat for a pass. Nobody is afraid of Leach, nobody cares about him getting the ball in his hands. That's pretty much it. It's like only fielding 10.5 players instead of 11... there's no "force multiplier" there.

    Why dump Leach then go out and get a Michael Williams type who essentially presents the same problem? Williams is a good blocker who can never be a good pass-catcher due to his lack of athleticism. When he's on the field the Ravens are probably going to be running behind him. He's not a threat to beat anybody otherwise.

    Now, I'm not saying the Ravens should go out and just get ANOTHER Pitta, a slot guy who can't block worth a lick. They need a TE who can block at least pretty well. Zach Ertz, Gavin Escobar, Jack Doyle, etc. are all guys who are serious mismatches in the pass game and either COULD become good blockers or already are--not as good as Williams but good enough. When they're on the field defenses aren't sure how to stop them--if they go to nickel run the ball, if they stay in base force them to cover your mismatch guy with a LB and you win.

    The Ravens used a lot of 2TE sets last year with Dickson and Pitta because they didn't have a good 3rd WR. Next year they very well might be in a similar spot if they let Boldin and/or Jacoby go and none of the young guys step up. All I'm saying is that for all we talk about adding a WR in the draft, a good receiving TE who blocks well is also a viable option.




  11. #1715
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Agree re Ertz and Eifert. If we got them, they'd complement Pitta very well, and if we do eliminate Leach's position (which I'd hate to see, but it's not looking like anything else will happen) then I think they'd be great adds.

    Something tells me though that they'll try and go cheap at TE again and go for more of an impact player, either on D or the O Line,which are bigger priorities by far, with the first 2 picks.

    They'll do their deep research and try to project a guy as being a "poor man's" Gronk/Ertz/Eifert and see how it goes. They hit big on Pitta as a 4th rounder, not so much on Dickson as a 3rd. Obviously Heap was the one big exception at the position - a great player and a first rounder.

    Other than that, if Wikipedia's page about the Ravens draft history is correct, they've never taken a TE above the 5th round.

    So I think even if Ertz or Eifert is there when we pick in the first, I don't think the team will value either one of them above a similarly graded player at a position of more pressing need.
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  12. #1716
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    I get what you're saying, but the whole reason why I don't see Leach being back next year is that he's not a dynamic player. When he's in the game it's probably going to be a run right behind him, and if it's not, maybe he'll leak out to the flat for a pass. Nobody is afraid of Leach, nobody cares about him getting the ball in his hands. That's pretty much it. It's like only fielding 10.5 players instead of 11... there's no "force multiplier" there.

    Why dump Leach then go out and get a Michael Williams type who essentially presents the same problem? Williams is a good blocker who can never be a good pass-catcher due to his lack of athleticism. When he's on the field the Ravens are probably going to be running behind him. He's not a threat to beat anybody otherwise.

    Now, I'm not saying the Ravens should go out and just get ANOTHER Pitta, a slot guy who can't block worth a lick. They need a TE who can block at least pretty well. Zach Ertz, Gavin Escobar, Jack Doyle, etc. are all guys who are serious mismatches in the pass game and either COULD become good blockers or already are--not as good as Williams but good enough. When they're on the field defenses aren't sure how to stop them--if they go to nickel run the ball, if they stay in base force them to cover your mismatch guy with a LB and you win.

    The Ravens used a lot of 2TE sets last year with Dickson and Pitta because they didn't have a good 3rd WR. Next year they very well might be in a similar spot if they let Boldin and/or Jacoby go and none of the young guys step up. All I'm saying is that for all we talk about adding a WR in the draft, a good receiving TE who blocks well is also a viable option.
    Right, but unfortunately a good receiving AND blocking TE are hard to come by these days. It seems like it is one or the other.

    We'll have to agree to disagree on the athleticism of Michael Williams. From what I've seen of him, I see a guy who can be a Marcedes Lewis type of TE. Big, solid hands, won't wow you with speed, but his size alone makes him a mismatch. I also think he will allow the Ravens to run some different formations like a stacked bunch or a jumbo bunch where both Williams and Pitta are to one side with (hopefully) Boldin. Sure, they will most likely run to that side, but they could also pass it, play action...having Williams as a blocking TE with Pitta split out wide isn't the identifying piece that having Leach lined up in an offset "I" is.

    Just my opinion though.

    Alabama ran a lot of single back with Williams in the game.
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