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  1. #2065

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread



    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    I won't reveal my draft hopes for the Ravens because it would spoil the surprise in the boardwide draft when I pick, but I will say that unless one of the elite top 10 type receivers fall, I'm unlikely to go in that direction.
    is there really an "elite" type WR in this draft worthy of top 10 top drop? From what I gather, they will be lucky to have any drafted by the end of the 1st.
    -JAB





  2. #2066

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BigPlayReceiver View Post
    Hopkins' 2012 productivity was incredible, but when I look at his "all-targets" film across six games, there's no element of his game that stands out to me. To me, Hopkins in 2013 would be slower but with better hands and in some cases better routes than Torrey in 2011.

    Looking at Allen (size, speed and athleticism), Patton (feet and routes), Studman (routes and hands), Austin (speed, unique quickness, unique vision), Patterson (size and unique YAC) and Wheaton (speed and routes), I know that I'm going to get someone who excels in a particular skill or two or three. Hopkins skill set is balanced, but without at least one aspect of excellence IMO, I'm struggling to project him as even a strong #2, let alone with the #1 projected value that a day 1 WR absolutely must demand...unless you are an all-around unique athlete like Tavon Austin.
    Hopkins is a better route runner than every one of those guys. In fact, if he came to Baltimore he'd likely be the best route runner on the team the moment he took the field... and that should make him an immediate contributor as well as give him a very high ceiling. The ability to understand and sell routes is the most important characteristic of wide receiver play. Jerry Rice was not a physically dominant receiver in any way but was one of the best route runners you'll ever see. I'm certainly not comparing Hopkins to Rice, but elite-caliber route runners are very rare in the draft nowadays with the simplicity of college offenses.

    I also think you're underrating Hopkins' deep speed and short-area quickness/YAC. Watch his film from the LSU game to see that on display. He shows better "playing speed" than all but Patterson and Austin on your list, as far as I see, and he also has the best hands of that group.

    Hopkins is getting majorly underrated right now, he's my #1 WR in the class. I think he'd be a great fit for the offense I think Caldwell is going to want to run in 2013. If we go base 3 wide he'd be the LWR opposite Torrey, pushing Boldin to the slot. That's a VERY fearsome group of pass catchers. I do agree that Wheaton, Patton, or Bailey in the 2nd would all be nice consolation prizes if they shake out as BPA at their spots, but I don't think any of them have quite the upside that Hopkins does.




  3. #2067
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    Hopkins is a better route runner than every one of those guys. In fact, if he came to Baltimore he'd likely be the best route runner on the team the moment he took the field... and that should make him an immediate contributor as well as give him a very high ceiling. The ability to understand and sell routes is the most important characteristic of wide receiver play. Jerry Rice was not a physically dominant receiver in any way but was one of the best route runners you'll ever see. I'm certainly not comparing Hopkins to Rice, but elite-caliber route runners are very rare in the draft nowadays with the simplicity of college offenses.

    I also think you're underrating Hopkins' deep speed and short-area quickness/YAC. Watch his film from the LSU game to see that on display. He shows better "playing speed" than all but Patterson and Austin on your list, as far as I see, and he also has the best hands of that group.

    Hopkins is getting majorly underrated right now, he's my #1 WR in the class. I think he'd be a great fit for the offense I think Caldwell is going to want to run in 2013. If we go base 3 wide he'd be the LWR opposite Torrey, pushing Boldin to the slot. That's a VERY fearsome group of pass catchers. I do agree that Wheaton, Patton, or Bailey in the 2nd would all be nice consolation prizes if they shake out as BPA at their spots, but I don't think any of them have quite the upside that Hopkins does.
    Good post.

    I definitely agree with this.
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  4. #2068

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    And Keenan Allen could very well be their choice. Cordarelle Patterson is ridiculously athletic, but his rawness worries me...at least as a 1st rounder.

    I think Someone like Allen, Patton, Rogers, Bailey, and Hopkins would be an excellent compliment to Torrey.

    However, I'm not so sure that they would go WR in round 1 unless it was a top flight prospect...and frankly, there are no top flight WR prospects in this draft (IMO). There are a lot of good receivers, but no real standout's from my perspective.
    Even Allen is not quite polished enough for me. The only guy I could see us taking is Austin, and that's only IF...we think he's freakish enough player/athlete AND IF we think there's a place for him in our offense.

    Otherwise, definitely no WR in the 1st is worthy b/c even if there is a run on them then that means that a valuable DT, ILB or OLB/DE has been in effect pushed down to 32...and we would take that guy instead




  5. #2069

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    Hopkins is a better route runner than every one of those guys. In fact, if he came to Baltimore he'd likely be the best route runner on the team the moment he took the field... and that should make him an immediate contributor as well as give him a very high ceiling. The ability to understand and sell routes is the most important characteristic of wide receiver play. Jerry Rice was not a physically dominant receiver in any way but was one of the best route runners you'll ever see. I'm certainly not comparing Hopkins to Rice, but elite-caliber route runners are very rare in the draft nowadays with the simplicity of college offenses.

    I also think you're underrating Hopkins' deep speed and short-area quickness/YAC. Watch his film from the LSU game to see that on display. He shows better "playing speed" than all but Patterson and Austin on your list, as far as I see, and he also has the best hands of that group.

    Hopkins is getting majorly underrated right now, he's my #1 WR in the class. I think he'd be a great fit for the offense I think Caldwell is going to want to run in 2013. If we go base 3 wide he'd be the LWR opposite Torrey, pushing Boldin to the slot. That's a VERY fearsome group of pass catchers. I do agree that Wheaton, Patton, or Bailey in the 2nd would all be nice consolation prizes if they shake out as BPA at their spots, but I don't think any of them have quite the upside that Hopkins does.
    Ill try to keep this brief since there's little use in debating a Walter mock 5 weeks before FA begins...

    From what I've seen from the guys I listed, in the route running department it's Studman, Wheaton then Hopkins IMO...and there's quite a bit of daylight there. Studman has the best hands IMO.

    Also, I'll look again, but I do not recall him running away from anyone. I've watched a lot of film on a lot of guys so maybe I'm misremembering. He's been a chain-mover at Clemson, and Clemson exposed LSU's secondary as fraudulent hacks (Boyd completed over 70% of his passes), but I think he'll struggle to get separation in the NFL.




  6. #2070
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    why?

    If they feel that DeAndre Hopkins or someone of that ilk is worth a 1st round pick, then who are we to second guess that?

    Here is the thing that needs to be asked when considering a 1st round WR...would they be an upgrade over Doss/Jones/Thompson/Streeter/LaQuan/Reed?

    If so, then it might not be a bad idea because the Ravens really only have 1 (legitimate) starting caliber guy who can line up on the outside and that's Torrey. Jacoby isn't bad as long as he's running deep patterns.

    I would rather us go a different direction in round 1, but we could do a lot worse than DeAndre Hopkins (if that were to happen). He would be able to do pretty much everything Boldin already does, but he has better speed and quickness.
    Drafting DeAngelo Hopkins would be like drafting Barret Jones IMO, both good players, may even be the BPA at 32, but we are stacked at wide out. Better value in later rounds IMO, especially if there is a speedy LB waiting there at 32 which is a much bigger need, or a pass rushing 5 tech DE, or a safety etc etc....

    I'm all for BPA, but BPA in Ozzies mind doesn't always mean the absolute BPA, despite what people like to think. Needs do play a big role in the draft too.




  7. #2071

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BigPlayReceiver View Post
    Even Allen is not quite polished enough for me. The only guy I could see us taking is Austin, and that's only IF...we think he's freakish enough player/athlete AND IF we think there's a place for him in our offense.

    Otherwise, definitely no WR in the 1st is worthy b/c even if there is a run on them then that means that a valuable DT, ILB or OLB/DE has been in effect pushed down to 32...and we would take that guy instead
    I'm actually very low on Keenan Allen. I don't see ANYTHING really impressive to his game on tape outside of some YAC ability. He plays very small and lacks physicality for 6'3 210 or whatever he's listed at. His speed is also very modest and he is a bad route runner at this point in his career. I wouldn't draft him if he were available at #32 honestly.

    At the 32nd pick you really are not going to get a knockout guy, frankly. If a player carrying a top 10 grade falls into the 20's, somebody is going to scoop him up before he gets to 32 in all likelihood. What's worse is that a lot of teams share our primary needs at OT, FS, ILB, and DT... and of that group, the class is only really strong at DT.

    There will not be an OT worth taking. No FS will fall past San Francisco, so Matt Elam is out of the picture. Manti Te'o and Kevin Minter will both be gone. The jury is still out on DT; will the Ravens stick to their 3-4 with 3 big fatties on the DL? If so, guys like Kawann Short aren't scheme fits, as much as I'd like to see the Ravens target a quick-twitch 3-tech.

    I really think you're looking at a scenario at #32 where there's no obvious BPA that fits a need. I think the Ravens' 1st round pick will be an "out of left field" type of pick, possibly at a position we don't even feel has a need at this point. It could be anything other than QB or RB, IMO.

    Somebody mentioned Walterfootball earlier and although his mock still has a lot of bad picks for the Ravens, I did like David Amerson in the 2nd. I haven't really watched too much tape on him but from what I've seen and read he has a TON of upside as a centerfield free safety. That would be a very Ravens-like move, but the jury is out on if he can transition to FS quickly enough to challenge for a day 1 starting spot.




  8. #2072
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    I'm actually very low on Keenan Allen. I don't see ANYTHING really impressive to his game on tape outside of some YAC ability. He plays very small and lacks physicality for 6'3 210 or whatever he's listed at. His speed is also very modest and he is a bad route runner at this point in his career. I wouldn't draft him if he were available at #32 honestly.

    At the 32nd pick you really are not going to get a knockout guy, frankly. If a player carrying a top 10 grade falls into the 20's, somebody is going to scoop him up before he gets to 32 in all likelihood. What's worse is that a lot of teams share our primary needs at OT, FS, ILB, and DT... and of that group, the class is only really strong at DT.

    There will not be an OT worth taking. No FS will fall past San Francisco, so Matt Elam is out of the picture. Manti Te'o and Kevin Minter will both be gone. The jury is still out on DT; will the Ravens stick to their 3-4 with 3 big fatties on the DL? If so, guys like Kawann Short aren't scheme fits, as much as I'd like to see the Ravens target a quick-twitch 3-tech.

    I really think you're looking at a scenario at #32 where there's no obvious BPA that fits a need. I think the Ravens' 1st round pick will be an "out of left field" type of pick, possibly at a position we don't even feel has a need at this point. It could be anything other than QB or RB, IMO.

    Somebody mentioned Walterfootball earlier and although his mock still has a lot of bad picks for the Ravens, I did like David Amerson in the 2nd. I haven't really watched too much tape on him but from what I've seen and read he has a TON of upside as a centerfield free safety. That would be a very Ravens-like move, but the jury is out on if he can transition to FS quickly enough to challenge for a day 1 starting spot.
    Amerson in the 2nd is actually why I said that I'd be ok with that mock up. I like Hopkins a lot, but I would really rather steer clear of a 1st round WR in this draft class.

    Amerson, however, I like a lot. He has a bit of a down year, but last season that guy was a force as a cornerback. At that point, I really thought he'd be a top 10 pick. His size (6'3" 195-200lbs), speed, and ball skills would make him a hell of a player in the secondary.

    His biggest downside is he tends to play stiff from time to time and he doesn't have that "hip swivel" you look for in top flight cornerbacks. Still, he can jam at the LOS really well too. So, that's a plus.

    I think Amerson would be a solid cover safety.
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  9. #2073
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Yeah Amerson can't play corner in the NFL, I really doubt he can. He would make a very very good center fielder though, he has ball skills, very tall and rangy too.




  10. #2074

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by s.r.genovese View Post
    We have 11 picks this year. It's a good a time as any to trade up and get Lane Johnson at 15-20ish.
    I'm all for that. What would it really cost us to move up from 16 to 32 though? Here is my fear with doing that though. Right now, assuming Boldin and/or Jones is back, we really only have one pressing need on offense (LT). We also need 1-2 O-line depth picks and a 3rd TE, but neither is a huge priority.

    Where we need a lot of help/depth is on defense, particularly if we lose Kruger/Ellerbe/Reed. If we trade up to get Lane Johnson, I would guess we'd have to package our 2nd rounder to do it, right? Now we only have one pick in the first 94 and guys like Eric Reid/Elam/Vaccaro aren't realistic targets. We'd have to fill our holes with late 3rd rounders and 4th rounders, etc.




  11. #2075
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeDaniel View Post
    I'm all for that. What would it really cost us to move up from 16 to 32 though? Here is my fear with doing that though. Right now, assuming Boldin and/or Jones is back, we really only have one pressing need on offense (LT). We also need 1-2 O-line depth picks and a 3rd TE, but neither is a huge priority.

    Where we need a lot of help/depth is on defense, particularly if we lose Kruger/Ellerbe/Reed. If we trade up to get Lane Johnson, I would guess we'd have to package our 2nd rounder to do it, right? Now we only have one pick in the first 94 and guys like Eric Reid/Elam/Vaccaro aren't realistic targets. We'd have to fill our holes with late 3rd rounders and 4th rounders, etc.
    Exactly.

    And the Ravens don't have a ton of cap space to work with, so targeting a lot of starting-caliber free agents is likely out of the question.
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  12. #2076

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeDaniel View Post
    I'm all for that. What would it really cost us to move up from 16 to 32 though? Here is my fear with doing that though. Right now, assuming Boldin and/or Jones is back, we really only have one pressing need on offense (LT). We also need 1-2 O-line depth picks and a 3rd TE, but neither is a huge priority.

    Where we need a lot of help/depth is on defense, particularly if we lose Kruger/Ellerbe/Reed. If we trade up to get Lane Johnson, I would guess we'd have to package our 2nd rounder to do it, right? Now we only have one pick in the first 94 and guys like Eric Reid/Elam/Vaccaro aren't realistic targets. We'd have to fill our holes with late 3rd rounders and 4th rounders, etc.
    I keep saying it and I won't stop saying it until people get it into their heads. This team's biggest need BY FAR is free safety. Now, if they re-sign Ed Reed that will certainly change. But unless and until they do that the huge glaring need on this team is at the free safety position.

    That is the ONE position they literally have no one with any NFL experience as an option on the roster. They could easily shuffle the OL again and put Oher at LT, which would absolutely not be optimal, but the team could do it. IMO the really crucial area on the OL was solidifying the interior, which they've done by moving KO to LG. With more quick-hitting routes and space for Flacco to step up into the offense could get by without elite-level protection from the tackles in all likelihood.

    ILB? They have McClain coming back and Bynes, McClellan, and Ayanbadejo all have experience and some degree of talent. They have depth at the position no matter what happens with Ellerbe or the draft. This is getting overrated as an immediate need IMO.

    DE/OLB? Suggs will be healthier next year, Upshaw will continue to grow, and they have depth/project guys they like in Hamilton and McAdoo.

    DL? Cody was the team's biggest disappointment this year, but he played a little better in the playoffs and is still a fairly young player. They have Art Jones, McPhee, and Tyson as young players who they like a lot, and Ngata should also be healthier next year.

    WR? They need to grow and get younger long-term but even if one of Boldin or Jacoby is cut loose they're probably okay at the position for another year. Same for TE.

    I just don't think it's even questionable at this point that FS is the most concerning area on this team. At least they have options under contract at every other position. They have NOTHING at FS unless they sign Ed Reed which might not happen, and to make it even worse our defensive scheme puts a ton of pressure on the deep safety to cover up weaknesses elsewhere. There's no way Christian Thompson is ready to step up and be even half of what Ed Reed was at his worst.




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