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  1. #3481

    Re: Draft / FA / Offseason Roster Moves (Merged)



    Well, considering Ellerbe has never started unless the man in front of him was hurt, While Witherspoon has been a starter practically since day one, I think there is a lot of merit to saying Witherspoon is better.

    And considering Witherspoon has 8 sacks as a 4-3 LB in a little over 2 seasons as a starter, I think Spoon is a heck of a blitzer.
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




  2. #3482
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    Re: Draft / FA / Offseason Roster Moves (Merged)

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    Well, considering Ellerbe has never started unless the man in front of him was hurt, While Witherspoon has been a starter practically since day one, I think there is a lot of merit to saying Witherspoon is better.

    And considering Witherspoon has 8 sacks as a 4-3 LB in a little over 2 seasons as a starter, I think Spoon is a heck of a blitzer.
    Ellerbe had 5 sacks in fewer game splayed than Witherspoon who recorded 3 this year.




  3. #3483
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    Re: Draft / FA / Offseason Roster Moves (Merged)

    Anyway the debate about Ellerbe and Witherspoon is irrelevant. We can agree to disagree about who's better, but fact is the current perception on a league wide basis would put Ellerbe and Witherspoon in the same category. Young solid players with upside, and potential to get better, but not in the Patrick Willis/Brian Cushing league.




  4. #3484
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    Re: Draft / FA / Offseason Roster Moves (Merged)

    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    When has WItherspoon made the pro bowl?

    And please enlighten me with how he's much more complete than Ellerbe? I will give you coverage, but Ellerbe is a much better run defender, its not even close, and A gap blitzer.
    Weatherspoon has more tackles in two years than Ellerbe does in 4, more sacks, and more passes defensed.

    Ellerbe is a good player. Stop getting so offended when someone points out that other players might actually be *gasp* better than a player on the Ravens' squad. Ellerbe would be a much better player if he didn't miss games due to being injured, which brings me to another point...Weatherspoon doesn't miss time like Ellerbe does.

    If you look at a LB in 3 separate components (run stopping, coverage, and blitzing) then Ellerbe would be 2 out of 3...thus, he is NOT a complete player. Weatherspoon, on the other hand, is a good blitzer, a good run stopper, and plays well in space; ergo he IS a complete player.

    Furthermore, Weatherspoon is almost 3 years younger than Ellerbe and doesn't have nearly the level of talent around him. That is why I said that if Weatherspoon were on the Ravens instead of the beleaguered Falcons' D, he would probably be a pro-bowler.

    Finally, in college, Weatherspoon was a Butkus Award finalist, a 3 time All Big12, and a 3rd team All American.

    Consider yourself enlightened.
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  5. #3485
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    Re: Draft / FA / Offseason Roster Moves (Merged)

    I'm saying Ellerbe is better than Witherspoon at run stopping and blitzing AT THIS POINT in their careers, I'm not talking the past 4 years. If you wanna go by production and tackle count, Ellerbe had more production this year than Witherspoon did in fewer games, in both sacks and tackles, as well as QB pressures, hurries, stops etc. Ellerbe was an undrafted player, of course it was going tot ake some time for him.

    The talent argument may have credence to it, but in some of the games Ellerbe played well in this year, the Ravens had some pretty untalented defenses out there that consisted mainly of undrafted players and special team aces.




  6. #3486
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    Re: Draft / FA / Offseason Roster Moves (Merged)

    DJ Fluker says he wants to be the Ray Lewis of the offensive line, and likes to let defensive linemen what he's going to do to them lol... Says he looks up to Ozzie Newsome. Seems like a very interesting character.

    http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/r...,1928936.story

    He would fit in well in the Ravens locker room.




  7. Re: Draft / FA / Offseason Roster Moves (Merged)

    I think Ellerbe has elevated his game to the level of Spoon. He was out there taking on blocks and looking pretty explosive even while pretty well hobbled by various injuries. It is not even unreasonable to project Ellebe having a better next couple of seasons, but that is an argument no one can really win. It is always fun to compare players, but really almost imossible to prove an opinion of them.







  8. #3488
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    Re: Draft / FA / Offseason Roster Moves (Merged)

    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    Anyway the debate about Ellerbe and Witherspoon is irrelevant. We can agree to disagree about who's better, but fact is the current perception on a league wide basis would put Ellerbe and Witherspoon in the same category. Young solid players with upside, and potential to get better, but not in the Patrick Willis/Brian Cushing league.
    Fact? Do you have a link for that fact? Especially considering that Ellerbe is older than Cushing and Weatherspoon...just saying.

    Ellerbe is probably as good as he is going to be, which is fine because he is a good player.

    Weatherspoon has only been in the league for 3 years. He isn't in the same category as Willis, but he is close. No doubt about it. That kid is a good player and hands down the best defensive player on Atlanta's team.

    PFF seems to think that he is poised for elite status: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...n-to-be-elite/
    Weatherspoon graded out as PFF’s fifth best 4-3 outside linebacker with an overall grade of +18.3.
    https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...er-or-ellerbe/
    Finishing the season as our 14th-highest graded inside linebacker, Ellerbe did his best work as a starter, compiling a cumulative grade of +11.5
    He was Baltimore’s best linebacker in the Super Bowl, and was considered one of our Best Subs of 2012. However, although he was undoubtedly productive when attacking the line of scrimmage, his -5.0 pass coverage grade reveals his struggles when backpedaling. Teams targeted Ellerbe for 369 yards and 220 yards after the catch in the regular season. He surrendered 1.18 yards per coverage snap, and allowed a reception once every 8.2 coverage snaps, both among the highest rates for an inside linebacker. Twenty-three of the 38 receptions he allowed went for a first down, and quarterbacks had a 97.1 rating when throwing into his area. This wasn’t just a down year either, as Ellerbe earned a -7.8 coverage grade in sparing snaps last season.
    So, again, Ellerbe is a good player and he is a great fit for Baltimore's D.

    However, Weatherspoon is a more complete LB. I think a player of his caliber would be fantastic behind Ngata, Art Jones, and Suggs.
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  9. #3489
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    Re: Draft / FA / Offseason Roster Moves (Merged)

    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    I'm saying Ellerbe is better than Witherspoon at run stopping and blitzing AT THIS POINT in their careers, I'm not talking the past 4 years. If you wanna go by production and tackle count, Ellerbe had more production this year than Witherspoon did in fewer games, in both sacks and tackles, as well as QB pressures, hurries, stops etc. Ellerbe was an undrafted player, of course it was going tot ake some time for him.

    The talent argument may have credence to it, but in some of the games Ellerbe played well in this year, the Ravens had some pretty untalented defenses out there that consisted mainly of undrafted players and special team aces.
    You asked how I thought Weatherspoon was a more "complete" player than Ellerbe.

    I told you.
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  10. #3490
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    Re: Draft / FA / Offseason Roster Moves (Merged)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah W View Post
    I think Ellerbe has elevated his game to the level of Spoon. He was out there taking on blocks and looking pretty explosive even while pretty well hobbled by various injuries. It is not even unreasonable to project Ellebe having a better next couple of seasons, but that is an argument no one can really win. It is always fun to compare players, but really almost imossible to prove an opinion of them.
    I just don't think that is accurate.

    #1 - They are playing two different positions in two different types of defensive schemes with entirely different personnel. For those reasons alone, we couldn't possibly compare the two accurately at all. Ellerbe plays on a better defensive team with better defensive personnel around him. Ellerbe also predominately players MLB/ILB whereas Weatherspoon is a "Will" linebacker, or weak side. Their roles are different.

    #2 - The fact that Ellerbe went from a UDFA to where he is now suggests that his "arc" is probably peaking right now. He'll probably play at a reasonably high level for the next 2-3 years, assuming he can stay healthy (which at this point he hasn't really proven to be able to do).

    #3 - Weatherspoon is 25 years old. He hasn't even gotten into what many consider the "prime" of a linebacker. Overall, Weatherspoon has been incredibly good and has a probable trajectory of becoming very, very, very good in the next 4-5 years.

    I don't know how Weatherspoon would function in the Ravens' 3-4/hybrid. I am not sure if he would be an OLB or an ILB, but my guess is an ILB. What I do know is that he would likely be able to replicate (or come close to) Ellerbe's production regarding run stopping ability and blitzing. However, Weatherspoon is much, much better in coverage and therefor, I do think that he would be an overall better player than Ellerbe.

    Again, not knocking Ellerbe at all. This is like comparing grapefruits to oranges. Similar, but not the same at all. Both are quality products in their own right.
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  11. #3491

    Re: Draft / FA / Offseason Roster Moves (Merged)

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    I just don't think that is accurate.

    #1 - They are playing two different positions in two different types of defensive schemes with entirely different personnel. For those reasons alone, we couldn't possibly compare the two accurately at all. Ellerbe plays on a better defensive team with better defensive personnel around him. Ellerbe also predominately players MLB/ILB whereas Weatherspoon is a "Will" linebacker, or weak side. Their roles are different.

    #2 - The fact that Ellerbe went from a UDFA to where he is now suggests that his "arc" is probably peaking right now. He'll probably play at a reasonably high level for the next 2-3 years, assuming he can stay healthy (which at this point he hasn't really proven to be able to do).

    #3 - Weatherspoon is 25 years old. He hasn't even gotten into what many consider the "prime" of a linebacker. Overall, Weatherspoon has been incredibly good and has a probable trajectory of becoming very, very, very good in the next 4-5 years.

    I don't know how Weatherspoon would function in the Ravens' 3-4/hybrid. I am not sure if he would be an OLB or an ILB, but my guess is an ILB. What I do know is that he would likely be able to replicate (or come close to) Ellerbe's production regarding run stopping ability and blitzing. However, Weatherspoon is much, much better in coverage and therefor, I do think that he would be an overall better player than Ellerbe.

    Again, not knocking Ellerbe at all. This is like comparing grapefruits to oranges. Similar, but not the same at all. Both are quality products in their own right.
    Totally agree.
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




  12. #3492

    Re: Draft / FA / Offseason Roster Moves (Merged)

    Random thought: Is it just me, or do the Ravens get more value for their draft picks than the Atlanta Falcons?
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




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