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  1. #805
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread



    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle View Post
    Bridgewater was very poised and made some perfect passes, even a couple that the receivers couldn't get to. I refuse to believe the talking heads saying 'there are no QBs this year'. We don't know that yet.
    Well, he is a sophomore...so he couldn't come out until next year anyway.
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  2. #806

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    I actually don't think that the talent on defense is so much poor as just needing time to grow. As fans we've never really been patient with our defensive players. At least, since the defense began to come together around 99'.

    If Terrance Cody cannot handle NT, he can still be an effective NG. Move him back to NG and move Ngata back to NT. Let Arthur Jones and DeAngelo Tyson compete for the 5- Technique. Let McPhee come off of the bench as the pass rushing specialist in nickel situations.

    Suggs, Ellerbe and Upshaw will all likely be full time starters. So, you're only really missing one ILB and depth, which is an every-year need.

    You have two CBs who just need to stay healthy. Webb, who can play press man or zone. Smith, who can play press man. Then, you have Graham and Brown who have benefited from their playing time this year. That's not even counting what Asa Jackson could bring to the table.

    Pollard is locked in at SS. Personally, unless a can't miss FS shows up in the draft, I'd let Thompson and Ihedibo compete for the FS spot, because it would be hard for either of them to be a downgrade from what Reed is giving you this year.

    We've seen this before from this team. Young talent, stuck behind veteran talent, with the coaching staff relying on its veterans. It just so happened that, this year, they had to rely on so many young guys at once. Johnson gone, Redding gone, Lewis, Webb, and Suggs hurt.
    This is too simplistic of a picture. Cody can't play--as in, at all. His technique is among the worst I've ever seen on the defensive line and he totally lacks functional strength. As an interior lineman, you do at least one of two things every down (preferably both): anchor, and penetrate. Cody doesn't have the strength to anchor or the speed to penetrate. At this point, he has to be presumed a bust. If he can come back next year and play well, then let him prove it, but he absolutely can't be relied on and the team needs to upgrade. Apart from that I do agree that we have enough young talent at interior DL to work with.

    Suggs is probably never going to play at a Pro Bowl level again. He played well in his first game back against the Texans, but apart from that he's been mostly average. He'll be 31 this year and he's one of the oldest 31 year olds in the NFL as he's already a 10 year vet with several serious injuries. Does he even have 3 years left in the NFL? We need to begin looking for a replacement at rush DE/OLB.

    Those are just a couple of serious concerns you seem to be overlooking. You're also assuming we'll have guys like Ellerbe and Ihedigbo back... but those 2 are both free agents and the team is cash-strapped. Failing to retain Ellerbe would be catastrophic, but it absolutely could happen especially if a long-term deal can't be reached with Flacco. Ihedigbo is a nice 3rd safety/dime package/special teams player but as I said he's a FA anyway and even if he's retained they need to add someone at FS. Christian Thompson is a total unknown and not a lock to even make the team next year.

    This team has more needs than people realize particularly on the defensive side of the ball.




  3. #807

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Bridgewater looked pretty good. His accuracy was just a shade below his season average, and he was money on 3rd downs (huge in my book). At least 3 of his 12 incompletes were the fault of the receivers, and when he knocked over the back pylon with an incomplete corner fade (b/c the WR stumbled), I just shook my head.

    Benevides looked pretty good too as Louisville's interior didn't really cave, but Floyd didn't give an inch either. He played well and looked every bit of the disruptor as I read about...Warren Sapp comes to mind (though not as quick).

    Bostic is a little crazy, very animated, talks A LOT (even to the refs *smh*), and is bigger than I thought. He's very solid vs. the run with Floyd in front of him, but he seemed a little slow vs. the pass as Louisville kept hitting short passes between the numbers and hashes.

    I've watched a lot of Elam before last night, so I didn't really follow him at all last night.

    Overall, I would be very comfortable with Elam or Floyd, but I would still take Frederick (if he declares) as my C at the Draft unless we go full ZBS then I'd stick with Gino despite him still being pretty much of an unknown to me. Yet, I can see us taking Benevides for depth if teams pass him by.




  4. #808
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    That was a great game; Louisville refused to let Florida intimidate them and the Gators just thought they could show up and win. Pride proceeds the fall.
    World Domination 3 Points at a Time!




  5. #809

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    I don't think the team is going to draft another guy with the assumption that they will be starting over Gino unless it's Barrett Jones. Benevides is a solid guy, but I think Gino has done nothing but give the team more confidence in him that he can do the job throughout the season.

    I think another guy may be taken for depth late in the draft, but I don't think C is going to be an issue for this team next year.

    I was kind of going at it in another thread, but I also think any thought that we are going to be paying a lot of money or trading way up (probably no higher than 5 spots ahead of where we are going to pick) to pick a LT is wishful thinking on the fans part. The team is content with Oher...I don't think people really realize how bad some other teams LT's are considering the constant bashing Oher gets...and considering anybody would think a guy like Jermon Bushrod would be an upgrade (or that any team at all would allow a franchise type LT hit the open market...Personally I don't even think Albert is all that great either) is REALLY out of it.

    As for the DL...one guy who I think we should look at to help out at NT is Casey Hampton. I know he is old and you really don't want him in there playing a ton of snaps, but when he is fresh, he can still play at a pretty high level. He would be cheap and it would only have to be for 2 years max or so...and maybe he can help groom and give Cody tips.

    As for the game last night, I watched a lot of Elam and Bostic...and neither really did anything to stand out. I don't want to say they were disappointing as I didn't really see them struggling, but I expected more. Is Bostic a senior?
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




  6. #810
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    As for the DL...one guy who I think we should look at to help out at NT is Casey Hampton. I know he is old and you really don't want him in there playing a ton of snaps, but when he is fresh, he can still play at a pretty high level. He would be cheap and it would only have to be for 2 years max or so...and maybe he can help groom and give Cody tips.
    I don't think anything is going to help Cody but I like the idea of Hampton as long as he's healthy. He'd be a big upgrade over Kemo.
    He Who Dares.....Wins




  7. #811

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    I don't think the team is going to draft another guy with the assumption that they will be starting over Gino unless it's Barrett Jones. Benevides is a solid guy, but I think Gino has done nothing but give the team more confidence in him that he can do the job throughout the season.

    I think another guy may be taken for depth late in the draft, but I don't think C is going to be an issue for this team next year.

    I was kind of going at it in another thread, but I also think any thought that we are going to be paying a lot of money or trading way up (probably no higher than 5 spots ahead of where we are going to pick) to pick a LT is wishful thinking on the fans part. The team is content with Oher...I don't think people really realize how bad some other teams LT's are considering the constant bashing Oher gets...and considering anybody would think a guy like Jermon Bushrod would be an upgrade (or that any team at all would allow a franchise type LT hit the open market...Personally I don't even think Albert is all that great either) is REALLY out of it.

    As for the DL...one guy who I think we should look at to help out at NT is Casey Hampton. I know he is old and you really don't want him in there playing a ton of snaps, but when he is fresh, he can still play at a pretty high level. He would be cheap and it would only have to be for 2 years max or so...and maybe he can help groom and give Cody tips.

    As for the game last night, I watched a lot of Elam and Bostic...and neither really did anything to stand out. I don't want to say they were disappointing as I didn't really see them struggling, but I expected more. Is Bostic a senior?
    Bostic is a senior and solid, but not great, IMO. The biggest weakness in his game is pass coverage, which is obviously a problem, but he's pretty good against the run. He's not a target for the Ravens unless he were to fall into the later rounds IMO. Elam didn't have a very impressive game but Bridgewater didn't throw a lot into his coverage. He played well in his run fits which is standard for him.

    I've agreed with you regarding a lot of your views on the OL in other threads, but I have to point out that the reason Oher is constantly bashed is that he is constantly making mistakes and playing poorly. The criticism he receives is pretty much totally warranted--other teams might have left tackles who get beat a lot, but Oher's problems run deeper than just getting beat by good pass rushers, which happens to all LTs.

    The book is out on Oher at this point and it says that he's beatable physically but moreso mentally. You can beat him with a speed rush, then once he starts overcompensating for that you can beat him with the inside move. You can also beat him anytime you please with a twist, stunt, or zone blitz, and if you overload the left side you can bet bottom dollar he'll pick up the wrong blitzer or just plain not block anybody at all.

    Guys like Jeff Backus, Sam Baker, Max Starks, etc. are the guys in Oher's league--the bottom 3rd of LTs in the league. Those guys are mostly in that tier because they're among the more athletically limited tackles in the league whether by age or talent. But you rarely see them standing around not knowing who to block and then giving up on the play like Oher does. The tendency to not give 100% effort and then give up on the play is something we didn't see out of Oher before this year really and it's really troubling--possibly indicative that he's totally lost confidence.

    Oher's struggles aren't all on him but until he gets smarter and more confident with his game he will play under his physical potential, and that puts him firmly in the "mediocre to poor" category. I don't think we can upgrade on him outside of the draft but I think you'd be hard pressed to say he's in the top 20 LTs in the NFL.




  8. #812

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    Bostic is a senior and solid, but not great, IMO. The biggest weakness in his game is pass coverage, which is obviously a problem, but he's pretty good against the run. He's not a target for the Ravens unless he were to fall into the later rounds IMO. Elam didn't have a very impressive game but Bridgewater didn't throw a lot into his coverage. He played well in his run fits which is standard for him.

    I've agreed with you regarding a lot of your views on the OL in other threads, but I have to point out that the reason Oher is constantly bashed is that he is constantly making mistakes and playing poorly. The criticism he receives is pretty much totally warranted--other teams might have left tackles who get beat a lot, but Oher's problems run deeper than just getting beat by good pass rushers, which happens to all LTs.

    The book is out on Oher at this point and it says that he's beatable physically but moreso mentally. You can beat him with a speed rush, then once he starts overcompensating for that you can beat him with the inside move. You can also beat him anytime you please with a twist, stunt, or zone blitz, and if you overload the left side you can bet bottom dollar he'll pick up the wrong blitzer or just plain not block anybody at all.

    Guys like Jeff Backus, Sam Baker, Max Starks, etc. are the guys in Oher's league--the bottom 3rd of LTs in the league. Those guys are mostly in that tier because they're among the more athletically limited tackles in the league whether by age or talent. But you rarely see them standing around not knowing who to block and then giving up on the play like Oher does. The tendency to not give 100% effort and then give up on the play is something we didn't see out of Oher before this year really and it's really troubling--possibly indicative that he's totally lost confidence.

    Oher's struggles aren't all on him but until he gets smarter and more confident with his game he will play under his physical potential, and that puts him firmly in the "mediocre to poor" category. I don't think we can upgrade on him outside of the draft but I think you'd be hard pressed to say he's in the top 20 LTs in the NFL.
    Oh, I definitely think he is in the top 20.

    Can you honestly...honestly name 15 better LT's int his league?

    And frankly, the elite guys haven't won anything...Joe Thomas, Jake Long, D'Brickashaw Ferguson, Jason Peters...none have won anything.

    Look at the LT's on the last couple championship teams...Matt Light, Will Beatty last year. Jonathan Scott and an ancient Chad Clifton before. Charlie Johnson and Jermon Bushrod before that. I could go on and on.

    I think he is right about average...hell there were people that were swearing up and down that Harbaugh was an idiot for leaving the "clearly better" Mckinnie on the bench and not starting him over Oher. I think we clearly saw why he isn't any better this past Sunday.
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




  9. #813

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    Oh, I definitely think he is in the top 20.

    Can you honestly...honestly name 15 better LT's int his league?

    And frankly, the elite guys haven't won anything...Joe Thomas, Jake Long, D'Brickashaw Ferguson, Jason Peters...none have won anything.

    Look at the LT's on the last couple championship teams...Matt Light, Will Beatty last year. Jonathan Scott and an ancient Chad Clifton before. Charlie Johnson and Jermon Bushrod before that. I could go on and on.

    I think he is right about average...hell there were people that were swearing up and down that Harbaugh was an idiot for leaving the "clearly better" Mckinnie on the bench and not starting him over Oher. I think we clearly saw why he isn't any better this past Sunday.
    Whether they have "won anything" or not is irrelevant to the question of how good they are protecting the passer and blocking in the run game.

    Getting into arguments about rankings is usually pointless, but again, Oher is more TALENTED than a lot of tackles, but that doesn't mean he's better, because talent is only half of the equation. Technique (both mentally and physically) is the other and that's where Oher is lacking.

    If I were a GM I would take the following guys over Oher, each group in no particular order: FIRST TIER - 1) Joe Thomas 2) Trent Williams 3) Russell Okung 4) Duane Brown 5) Joe Staley 6) Ryan Clady 7) Andrew Whitworth 8) Michael Roos SECOND TIER - 9) Tyron Smith 10) Jordan Gross 11) Branden Albert 12) Jared Veldheer 13) D'Brickashaw Ferguson 14) Matt Kalil 15) Donald Penn 16) Eugene Monroe

    There's an easy 16 off the top of my head. Add Jason Peters to the first tier if he comes back healthy next year, Jared Gaither if he'll ever be healthy again (big if), and Jake Long if this year was some sort of fluke/injury issue. Nate Solder and Anthony Castonzo are a little too unproven to get there at this point but they're in the conversation for the second tier.

    Oher's category includes these guys, again in no order: 1) Oher 2) Will Beatty (who was actually fairly good this year but is injury prone) 3) Jeff Backus 4) Sam Baker 5) Jermon Bushrod 6) Max Starks 7) Chris Hairston, and then there's the REALLY bad guys like 8) Levi Brown, 9) Rodger Saffold, 10) Marshall Newhouse, and 11) J'Marcus Webb. That's all 32 starting LTs in the league.

    The first tier is guys who can hold their own in pretty much any situation and lock down one side of the line. You expect frequent spotless or near-spotless games from them at least in pass protection. The second tier is guys who may need help from time to time with extra blockers and play design (or are still raw), but good enough to pretty much give you a chance most of the time and turn in great efforts at times. The third tier is guys who are a liability in at least one phase of the game and it should be assumed they will have a critical failure at least a few times a game and rarely, if ever, have a dominant game.

    Where does Oher fit in? It clearly seems to me to be the third group.




  10. #814
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    Whether they have "won anything" or not is irrelevant to the question of how good they are protecting the passer and blocking in the run game.

    Getting into arguments about rankings is usually pointless, but again, Oher is more TALENTED than a lot of tackles, but that doesn't mean he's better, because talent is only half of the equation. Technique (both mentally and physically) is the other and that's where Oher is lacking.

    If I were a GM I would take the following guys over Oher, each group in no particular order: FIRST TIER - 1) Joe Thomas 2) Trent Williams 3) Russell Okung 4) Duane Brown 5) Joe Staley 6) Ryan Clady 7) Andrew Whitworth 8) Michael Roos SECOND TIER - 9) Tyron Smith 10) Jordan Gross 11) Branden Albert 12) Jared Veldheer 13) D'Brickashaw Ferguson 14) Matt Kalil 15) Donald Penn 16) Eugene Monroe

    There's an easy 16 off the top of my head. Add Jason Peters to the first tier if he comes back healthy next year, Jared Gaither if he'll ever be healthy again (big if), and Jake Long if this year was some sort of fluke/injury issue. Nate Solder and Anthony Castonzo are a little too unproven to get there at this point but they're in the conversation for the second tier.

    Oher's category includes these guys, again in no order: 1) Oher 2) Will Beatty (who was actually fairly good this year but is injury prone) 3) Jeff Backus 4) Sam Baker 5) Jermon Bushrod 6) Max Starks 7) Chris Hairston, and then there's the REALLY bad guys like 8) Levi Brown, 9) Rodger Saffold, 10) Marshall Newhouse, and 11) J'Marcus Webb. That's all 32 starting LTs in the league.

    The first tier is guys who can hold their own in pretty much any situation and lock down one side of the line. You expect frequent spotless or near-spotless games from them at least in pass protection. The second tier is guys who may need help from time to time with extra blockers and play design (or are still raw), but good enough to pretty much give you a chance most of the time and turn in great efforts at times. The third tier is guys who are a liability in at least one phase of the game and it should be assumed they will have a critical failure at least a few times a game and rarely, if ever, have a dominant game.

    Where does Oher fit in? It clearly seems to me to be the third group.
    If Nate Solder and Anthony Costanzo are a little unproven, then you probably should classify Matt Kalil in there as well.
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  11. #815

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    If Nate Solder and Anthony Costanzo are a little unproven, then you probably should classify Matt Kalil in there as well.
    From what I've seen he's been absolutely lockdown in pass protection this year. He dominated Aldon Smith and Julius Peppers (twice!) and held his own against Clay Matthews among others. I think he's only given up like 2 or 3 sacks total this year and not many pressures/hurries.

    You don't step into the NFC North and lock down the LT position without being elite or close to elite, especially with a QB like Christian Ponder who is extremely tentative and holds the ball anyway. Kalil has shown more than enough in year 1 to make it at least into the second tier.




  12. #816

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    With Ray calling it quits i think it's more vital to get a ILB that can play right away...not because of losing Ray but because an Ogletree i dont think could beat out Mcclain in year one for the other LB spot because he wont be ready to play between the tackles. I personally dont wanna see Mcclain taking heavt snaps next year. I was thinking along the lines of this...

    Trade down from the first to the early 2nd round and take Aboushi, use that ammo to move up in the 2nd and take Kevin Minter or Arthur Brown. In the 3rd i'd take Baccari Rambo and in the 4th i'd take Missouri southern NT/DT Brandon Williams. I'd still sign a Terrance Knighton or Aubrayo Franklin while Williams is groomed to take over at the Nose, Williams can also play the 5-tech. With the rest of the draft i'd find another edge rusher to groom, a nickel LB, a backup QB and just go best available with whatever picks are left.




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