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  1. #817
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread



    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    From what I've seen he's been absolutely lockdown in pass protection this year. He dominated Aldon Smith and Julius Peppers (twice!) and held his own against Clay Matthews among others. I think he's only given up like 2 or 3 sacks total this year and not many pressures/hurries.

    You don't step into the NFC North and lock down the LT position without being elite or close to elite, especially with a QB like Christian Ponder who is extremely tentative and holds the ball anyway. Kalil has shown more than enough in year 1 to make it at least into the second tier.
    Fair enough. I really haven't watched too many Vikings games this year. I'm just always reserved when gauging rookies because you never know. Look at Jake Long.
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  2. #818

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    Whether they have "won anything" or not is irrelevant to the question of how good they are protecting the passer and blocking in the run game.

    Getting into arguments about rankings is usually pointless, but again, Oher is more TALENTED than a lot of tackles, but that doesn't mean he's better, because talent is only half of the equation. Technique (both mentally and physically) is the other and that's where Oher is lacking.

    If I were a GM I would take the following guys over Oher, each group in no particular order: FIRST TIER - 1) Joe Thomas 2) Trent Williams 3) Russell Okung 4) Duane Brown 5) Joe Staley 6) Ryan Clady 7) Andrew Whitworth 8) Michael Roos SECOND TIER - 9) Tyron Smith 10) Jordan Gross 11) Branden Albert 12) Jared Veldheer 13) D'Brickashaw Ferguson 14) Matt Kalil 15) Donald Penn 16) Eugene Monroe

    There's an easy 16 off the top of my head. Add Jason Peters to the first tier if he comes back healthy next year, Jared Gaither if he'll ever be healthy again (big if), and Jake Long if this year was some sort of fluke/injury issue. Nate Solder and Anthony Castonzo are a little too unproven to get there at this point but they're in the conversation for the second tier.

    Oher's category includes these guys, again in no order: 1) Oher 2) Will Beatty (who was actually fairly good this year but is injury prone) 3) Jeff Backus 4) Sam Baker 5) Jermon Bushrod 6) Max Starks 7) Chris Hairston, and then there's the REALLY bad guys like 8) Levi Brown, 9) Rodger Saffold, 10) Marshall Newhouse, and 11) J'Marcus Webb. That's all 32 starting LTs in the league.

    The first tier is guys who can hold their own in pretty much any situation and lock down one side of the line. You expect frequent spotless or near-spotless games from them at least in pass protection. The second tier is guys who may need help from time to time with extra blockers and play design (or are still raw), but good enough to pretty much give you a chance most of the time and turn in great efforts at times. The third tier is guys who are a liability in at least one phase of the game and it should be assumed they will have a critical failure at least a few times a game and rarely, if ever, have a dominant game.

    Where does Oher fit in? It clearly seems to me to be the third group.
    Eh...I'd put him at the end of the second...I certainly think he is comparable to Penn and Monroe.

    I just don't think he is that bad...I certainly don't think he isn't in the top 20.
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




  3. #819

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    Eh...I'd put him at the end of the second...I certainly think he is comparable to Penn and Monroe.

    I just don't think he is that bad...I certainly don't think he isn't in the top 20.
    You can quibble over whether he's 20th or 18th as much as you want, but he IS that bad. I went back and reviewed all of Filmstudy's excellent OL reviews of the year, and Oher's average score is a 68... which is a D+, and he's only had 3 games graded above a C. Most of his grades are D's, and that doesn't include the last game of the season, but I can tell you Oher gave up at least a sack, a QB hit, and 2 hurries through only 9 pass-blocking snaps. I would give him an F for his work with the first team in that game.

    By average grade, Oher has been the team's worst offensive lineman this year (excluding Bobbie Williams) and this has certainly been his worst season as a pro by far. He's trending downwards badly at this point and the worst thing is I think he knows full well how bad he's been this year and that's why he's starting to give up on a lot of blocks and not give 100% effort on the field.

    I really think the team needs to just move him to guard to try to salvage his confidence and make better use of his athleticism and strength. He could be a dominant zone-blocking left guard.




  4. #820

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    You can quibble over whether he's 20th or 18th as much as you want, but he IS that bad. I went back and reviewed all of Filmstudy's excellent OL reviews of the year, and Oher's average score is a 68... which is a D+, and he's only had 3 games graded above a C. Most of his grades are D's, and that doesn't include the last game of the season, but I can tell you Oher gave up at least a sack, a QB hit, and 2 hurries through only 9 pass-blocking snaps. I would give him an F for his work with the first team in that game.

    By average grade, Oher has been the team's worst offensive lineman this year (excluding Bobbie Williams) and this has certainly been his worst season as a pro by far. He's trending downwards badly at this point and the worst thing is I think he knows full well how bad he's been this year and that's why he's starting to give up on a lot of blocks and not give 100% effort on the field.

    I really think the team needs to just move him to guard to try to salvage his confidence and make better use of his athleticism and strength. He could be a dominant zone-blocking left guard.
    Here's the thing...you can't totally go off of Film's grades unless he graded the others.

    I'm simply saying that none of us...none of use pay anywhere near as close attention to other OT's to blatently say, Oher is ranked in the bottom 20. I simply don't believe that is true and that's really all I'm saying.
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




  5. #821
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    Here's the thing...you can't totally go off of Film's grades unless he graded the others.

    I'm simply saying that none of us...none of use pay anywhere near as close attention to other OT's to blatently say, Oher is ranked in the bottom 20. I simply don't believe that is true and that's really all I'm saying.
    It would be interesting to have some sort of a comparable threshold to gauge Michael Oher on.
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  6. #822

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    You can quibble over whether he's 20th or 18th as much as you want, but he IS that bad. I went back and reviewed all of Filmstudy's excellent OL reviews of the year, and Oher's average score is a 68... which is a D+, and he's only had 3 games graded above a C. Most of his grades are D's, and that doesn't include the last game of the season, but I can tell you Oher gave up at least a sack, a QB hit, and 2 hurries through only 9 pass-blocking snaps. I would give him an F for his work with the first team in that game.

    By average grade, Oher has been the team's worst offensive lineman this year (excluding Bobbie Williams) and this has certainly been his worst season as a pro by far. He's trending downwards badly at this point and the worst thing is I think he knows full well how bad he's been this year and that's why he's starting to give up on a lot of blocks and not give 100% effort on the field.

    I really think the team needs to just move him to guard to try to salvage his confidence and make better use of his athleticism and strength. He could be a dominant zone-blocking left guard.
    I'm jsut going to give Bmorecareful a big thumbs up, pretty much agreed all around. Oher is certainly outide the top 20, the tier's are pretty much exactly how ou list them, and Oher really is THAT bad. Bushrod may not be an upgrade, but he probably wouldn't be much of a downgrade either. You could say that Oher has the potential to be better then some, but what is curious to me is that all we hear about is his great work ethic, yet he has consistantly goten worse throughout his pro career. His rookie season was absolutely his best season, and it has been a steady decline to this yea, very obviously his worst season. I "suppose" last year at RT MAY have been better then the prior year at LT, maybe. Don't forget, last I knew he was leading the entire league at any position in penalties committed since the day he stepped on the field.

    Saffold might even be in Oher's area...

    Kalil is a stud... flat out stud.

    And the "they haven't won anything" argument is odd, because neither have Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitz, Andre Johnson or really any other top flight wideout.




  7. #823
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    I'm actually ''fall in love with a prospect mode'' with Matt Elam more than I have been for quite a long time. You wanna talk about replacing a vocal/emotional leader, that's Matt Elam. He plays like Ray Lewis as a safety, he isn't a ball hawk like Ed Reed, he's more of a Brian Dawkins. He is just a Raven through and through.




  8. #824
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Matt Elam.

    He has kind of emerged as a legitimate 1st round possibility for the Ravens.
    I think Ozzie is going to take a long hard look at Elam, he just fits this team perfectly.

    It would be fun to see him and Pollard smashing the shit out of everyone.




  9. #825

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    I think Ozzie is going to take a long hard look at Elam, he just fits this team perfectly.

    It would be fun to see him and Pollard smashing the shit out of everyone.
    I was just talking about that in an earlier post on this thread. Ed Reed used to be the best not only because he was an unparalleled ballhawk but also because now and again he would drop down from his FS spot and blitz for an unblocked sack or force a fumble from a RB. He can still be a force in coverage at times but he's not physical anymore and he doesn't make those scary plays shooting downfield like a missile anymore.

    Matt Elam is a guy who looks like he could be that sort of safety like Ed Reed used to be. VERY physical and good against the run... in addition to being able to cover man to man and over the top. Great player and I am also 100% on his bandwagon. He's my favorite safety in the class, I'm also a fan of Phillip Thomas, DJ Swearinger, and Kenny Vaccaro.




  10. #826
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Finally a few people on the Elam bandwagon.

    Elam and brown!




  11. #827
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Just wondering, who are some guys to take a look at in tonight's bowl game?
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  12. #828

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    And the "they haven't won anything" argument is odd, because neither have Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitz, Andre Johnson or really any other top flight wideout.
    I said that in regards that the team has to do whatever possible to get an elite guy.

    You don't need an elite LT to win and I don't think if we don't win a Super Bowl that Oher will be the reason why.

    And that's why I'm sure the team is not going to package a bunch of picks to go up 10+ spots for one. If one is sitting there that they really like close to their pick...maybe. But not in the first half and probably not top 20.
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




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