So is Flacco on the hot seat now, or is it Harbaugh?

**Paintballguy** · 12-11-2012, 06:04 AM

Harbaugh had no issue cutting a veteran kicker for an unproven rookie. Why would he have an issue cutting a coordinator? The Harbaugh loyalty meme is getting old.

**GOTA** · 12-11-2012, 06:22 AM

Originally Posted by Paintballguy

Harbaugh had no issue cutting a veteran kicker for an unproven rookie. Why would he have an issue cutting a coordinator? The Harbaugh loyalty meme is getting old.

Then why did it take him so long to get rid of Cam. Most everyone else would have fired Cam years ago.

**Paintballguy** · 12-11-2012, 06:24 AM

Originally Posted by GOTA

Then why did it take him so long to get rid of Cam. Most everyone else would have fired Cam years ago.

Why don't you call up Harbs and ask him? I wanted Cam gone too.

**GOTA** · 12-11-2012, 06:32 AM

Originally Posted by Paintballguy

Why don't you call up Harbs and ask him? I wanted Cam gone too.

Don't you think the reason he didn't was because of loyalty? He wanted to give Cam every possible chance to turn it around. If Cam wasn't a family friend I doubt he's keeps getting 1 more chance. Instead he ends up like Matsko and gone after 1 sub-par season.

**wickedsolo** · 12-11-2012, 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by GOTA

Don't you think the reason he didn't was because of loyalty? He wanted to give Cam every possible chance to turn it around. If Cam wasn't a family friend I doubt he's keeps getting 1 more chance. Instead he ends up like Matsko and gone after 1 sub-par season.

I'm sure that his off-field relationship with Cam played a part in it, but at the end of the day (like I've been saying for months) if Bisciotti comes down and tells Harbs that he needs to fix things because he is unhappy with the situation, then Harbs is going to do just that in order to keep his job. Plain and simple. Was Harbs' loyalty to Pops Mattison strong enough to keep him around? Nope. Same with Cam.

Bisciotti and Ozzie (and I'd like to think Harbs) saw that the offense had stagnated and just wasn't responding to Cam's philosophy.

**RavingMad** · 12-11-2012, 07:10 AM

Harbaugh isn't demanding top money. Harbaugh doesn't have a list of teams "wanting/needing" him. Harbaugh isn't a cap hit. Harbaugh was a Bisciotti hire.

Flacco thinks he's elite. But he is not. Flacco wants to get paid like an elite QB. But he won't here. Some desperate team like the Cardinals or Chiefs will offer him more money if he's on the market. Flacco's franchise tag will be VERY VERY high (speculation 17mil). Bisciotti and Ozzie aren't totally sold on Flacco.

You do the math.

**HoustonRaven** · 12-11-2012, 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot

So it's now just being stated as a fact that Steve fired Cam rather than Harbaugh? The same Harbaugh who got into a public screaming match with him the day before and who took full credit for the firing today?

Tell me guys, who in the castle do you know who's giving such juicy info? Because from where I'm sitting, it looks like you're all pulling it out of your asses.

This ... To an extent.

I do believe Harbs had seen enough. Hell, there are reports that Harbs was on board and didn't offer any resistance to the decision.

But like any and all coaching decisions in this league, the owner is going to have a say, and rightfully so.

Bisciotti is a business guy and like any successful businesses, you make decisions like this as a partnership. I am sure this decision was made with the proper folks signing off on it -- Harbs, Ozzie and to some extent, Joe.

**The Excellector** · 12-11-2012, 07:13 AM

If you were to ask Steve Bisciotti what the main reason is, as to why the team has been able to win consistently, he would, and has given an answer of Joe Flacco.

He and Harbaugh are safe.

**Ravenswintitle** · 12-11-2012, 07:19 AM

I think this 'public screaming match' is being way overblown. Didn't look any yelling was going on at all, they were having words like coaches do every game. But I do believe Harb made this move after Pitt and Cinci lost, knowing that we have time to make a run and are almost sure to win the division.

**wickedsolo** · 12-11-2012, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by RavingMad

Harbaugh isn't demanding top money. Harbaugh doesn't have a list of teams "wanting/needing" him. Harbaugh isn't a cap hit. Harbaugh was a Bisciotti hire.

Flacco thinks he's elite. But he is not. Flacco wants to get paid like an elite QB. But he won't here. Some desperate team like the Cardinals or Chiefs will offer him more money if he's on the market. Flacco's franchise tag will be VERY VERY high (speculation 17mil). Bisciotti and Ozzie aren't totally sold on Flacco.

You do the math.

And where are you coming up with that little nugget? Got a link?

**RavingMad** · 12-11-2012, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

And where are you coming up with that little nugget? Got a link?

Do you follow the ravens on a regular bases? If you do, do you only hear the positive when it comes to Flacco? Did you not hear from the brass that "Flacco has to get better"? After the elite comment did you not hear in so many words "shows us you are elite".

When you are totally sold, you don't make these statements publicly.

**Paintballguy** · 12-11-2012, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by RavingMad

Do you follow the ravens on a regular bases? If you do, do you only hear the positive when it comes to Flacco? Did you not hear from the brass that "Flacco has to get better"? After the elite comment did you not hear in so many words "shows us you are elite".

When you are totally sold, you don't make these statements publicly.

I think the Ravens want to stay with Flacco, but I don't think Biscuit wants to pay Flacco with a brinks truck if Flacco is going to be inconsistent. I think they want to see Flacco without Cameron to see if Cameron was the issue.

**NOLARavenFAN** · 12-11-2012, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by Paintballguy

I think the Ravens want to stay with Flacco, but I don't think Biscuit wants to pay Flacco with a brinks truck if Flacco is going to be inconsistent. I think they want to see Flacco without Cameron to see if Cameron was the issue.

Exactly.

**RavingMad** · 12-11-2012, 07:53 AM

Originally Posted by Paintballguy

I think the Ravens want to stay with Flacco, but I don't think Biscuit wants to pay Flacco with a brinks truck if Flacco is going to be inconsistent. I think they want to see Flacco without Cameron to see if Cameron was the issue.

You hit it on the nail. Evaluating Flacco was a big part of the move.

**pslholder96** · 12-11-2012, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by RavingMad

Do you follow the ravens on a regular bases? If you do, do you only hear the positive when it comes to Flacco? Did you not hear from the brass that "Flacco has to get better"? After the elite comment did you not hear in so many words "shows us you are elite".

When you are totally sold, you don't make these statements publicly.

Pure speculation my man.

**wickedsolo** · 12-11-2012, 08:10 AM

Gotcha.

I think that is a pretty big leap though. I think to say that they "arent sold" on Flacco isn't necessarily true, but maybe including that they aren't sold on what to pay him is a better way to look at it.. (because they are going to pay him...what other options do they have that won't sink the franchise for another 5 years?)...

**bmorecareful** · 12-11-2012, 08:10 AM

This will (and should) be pooh-pooh'd, but I also have one of those "friend of a friend" sources with the Ravens, and this is what I'm hearing--take with a huge grain of salt--it seems to confirm some of what was said earlier:

1) If the season ended today, Harbaugh would be fired and the entire coaching staff would be shaken up. That's from Bisciotti. Harbaugh has the balance of the season to get the team playing better football and save his job.

2) The Cam firing was a long time in the making, and one of the last straws was after the first Pittsburgh game. Flacco's agent called Ozzie and said that Joe cannot play with that type of play calling and would rather not do a deal. Ozzie assured him that this was Cam's last year and they agreed to wait and see.

3) The mutiny reported on earlier was not started by Harbaugh calling for a full-pads practice. That was an issue, but the primary issue was anger at offensive play calling on both sides of the ball. The entire meeting was about Cam.

4) Ray Rice has been fuming the entire season over Cam and told Harbaugh he wanted Cam gone.

5) Jim worked a lot with Joe in training camp and preseason, and the coaching staff felt Joe was making huge strides. They feel he's regressed as the season went on.

6) They are not at all sold on Caldwell long-term, and are eyeing Norv Turner, but Jim is being given a shot at this point because they have no one else.

7) Harbaugh asked Caldwell if he would take over the day after the second Steelers game. Don't know why it took this long.

Again, I am completely aware of how untrustworthy an anonymous friend of a friend of a random Internet dude is, but just figured I'd share.

**wickedsolo** · 12-11-2012, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by bmorecareful

This will (and should) be pooh-pooh'd, but I also have one of those "friend of a friend" sources with the Ravens, and this is what I'm hearing--take with a huge grain of salt--it seems to confirm some of what was said earlier:

1) If the season ended today, Harbaugh would be fired and the entire coaching staff would be shaken up. That's from Bisciotti. Harbaugh has the balance of the season to get the team playing better football and save his job.

2) The Cam firing was a long time in the making, and one of the last straws was after the first Pittsburgh game. Flacco's agent called Ozzie and said that Joe cannot play with that type of play calling and would rather not do a deal. Ozzie assured him that this was Cam's last year and they agreed to wait and see.

3) The mutiny reported on earlier was not started by Harbaugh calling for a full-pads practice. That was an issue, but the primary issue was anger at offensive play calling on both sides of the ball. The entire meeting was about Cam.

4) Ray Rice has been fuming the entire season over Cam and told Harbaugh he wanted Cam gone.

5) Jim worked a lot with Joe in training camp and preseason, and the coaching staff felt Joe was making huge strides. They feel he's regressed as the season went on.

6) They are not at all sold on Caldwell long-term, and are eyeing Norv Turner, but Jim is being given a shot at this point because they have no one else.

7) Harbaugh asked Caldwell if he would take over the day after the second Steelers game. Don't know why it took this long.

Again, I am completely aware of how untrustworthy an anonymous friend of a friend of a random Internet dude is, but just figured I'd share.

Interesting.

I have a hard time thinking that they would fire Harbs though.

Maybe Bisciotti and Ozzie are getting more tired of HArbs employing "his" guys above the needs of the team than we know?

**pslholder96** · 12-11-2012, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by bmorecareful

This will (and should) be pooh-pooh'd, but I also have one of those "friend of a friend" sources with the Ravens, and this is what I'm hearing--take with a huge grain of salt--it seems to confirm some of what was said earlier:

1) If the season ended today, Harbaugh would be fired and the entire coaching staff would be shaken up. That's from Bisciotti. Harbaugh has the balance of the season to get the team playing better football and save his job.

2) The Cam firing was a long time in the making, and one of the last straws was after the first Pittsburgh game. Flacco's agent called Ozzie and said that Joe cannot play with that type of play calling and would rather not do a deal. Ozzie assured him that this was Cam's last year and they agreed to wait and see.

3) The mutiny reported on earlier was not started by Harbaugh calling for a full-pads practice. That was an issue, but the primary issue was anger at offensive play calling on both sides of the ball. The entire meeting was about Cam.

4) Ray Rice has been fuming the entire season over Cam and told Harbaugh he wanted Cam gone.

5) Jim worked a lot with Joe in training camp and preseason, and the coaching staff felt Joe was making huge strides. They feel he's regressed as the season went on.

6) They are not at all sold on Caldwell long-term, and are eyeing Norv Turner, but Jim is being given a shot at this point because they have no one else.

7) Harbaugh asked Caldwell if he would take over the day after the second Steelers game. Don't know why it took this long.

Again, I am completely aware of how untrustworthy an anonymous friend of a friend of a random Internet dude is, but just figured I'd share.

What you've posted wouldn't surprise me at all. Harbaugh has always preached a team first attitude so you could tell sometimes during press conferences that the players would show some restraint being careful not to outright call people out or throw anyone under the bus.

**JohnBKistler** · 12-11-2012, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by GOTA

Don't you think the reason he didn't was because of loyalty? He wanted to give Cam every possible chance to turn it around. If Cam wasn't a family friend I doubt he's keeps getting 1 more chance. Instead he ends up like Matsko and gone after 1 sub-par season.

I don't necessarily disagree with you here, Gota. But then I got to ask, where the hell was Bisciotti and Newsome in the off-season?

I can understand - with the lockout after the 2010 season - Harbaugh being able to lobby successfully to keep Cam around. But what I really question is why the decision to send him packing wasn't made this off-season. Yes, they were also getting a new DC, and maybe they just didn't want to risk that much change, but the other risk - which has now turned into a huge issue - is that you would impede Flacco's growth and never truly understand his potential and limitations in order to make a wise contract offer. Now they are basically screwed...and with this strong-armed tactic in the middle of a playoff push, they may have seriously wrecked their playoff chances.

Yes, Harbaugh deserves blame for hanging on to his friend for too long...but after awhile, the responsibility to make a change (and the accountability for how long it takes and the manner in which it is done) moves upward.

If events played out as some are speculating, I have lost a lot of faith in the Ravens FO. Hope I am wrong...