So is Flacco on the hot seat now, or is it Harbaugh?

**GOTA** · 12-11-2012, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by JohnBKistler

I don't necessarily disagree with you here, Gota. But then I got to ask, where the hell was Bisciotti and Newsome in the off-season?

I can understand - with the lockout after the 2010 season - Harbaugh being able to lobby successfully to keep Cam around. But what I really question is why the decision to send him packing wasn't made this off-season. Yes, they were also getting a new DC, and maybe they just didn't want to risk that much change, but the other risk - which has now turned into a huge issue - is that you would impede Flacco's growth and never truly understand his potential and limitations in order to make a wise contract offer. Now they are basically screwed...and with this strong-armed tactic in the middle of a playoff push, they may have seriously wrecked their playoff chances.

Yes, Harbaugh deserves blame for hanging on to his friend for too long...but after awhile, the responsibility to make a change (and the accountability for how long it takes and the manner in which it is done) moves upward.

If events played out as some are speculating, I have lost a lot of faith in the Ravens FO. Hope I am wrong...

Bisciotti is not Jerry Jones or Mike Brown. That's why he has a GM and Head Coach. They're the football guys and the experts. If you want to blame someone in my opinion it would be Ozzie. He let Billick keep Cavanaugh way too long a decade ago. He's said before that he doesn't want to tell the coaches who their assistants will be but I wish he had done something sooner.

I do think that Ozzie is the reason why Caldwell was hired. Caldwell was interviewed to be the Ravens head coach. The word was that the team liked him a lot. Then Indy came in and guaranteed him Dungy's job because they didn't want to lose him. I'm sure that when Ozzie saw that Caldwell was available he at least suggested the name to Harbaugh.

**Paintballguy** · 12-11-2012, 09:16 AM

What if the Ravens hired Josh McDaniels to be the head coach?

**GOTA** · 12-11-2012, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by Paintballguy

What if the Ravens hired Josh McDaniels to be the head coach?

Why would any team do that?

**Paintballguy** · 12-11-2012, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by GOTA

Why would any team do that?

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...-a-head-coach/

**JohnBKistler** · 12-11-2012, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by GOTA

Why would any team do that?

Someone commented somewhere last night (Twitter, message board, can't remember) that it is games like last night that will make some stupid owner hire McDaniels as their head coach.

And yes, there are some stupid owners...

**4G63** · 12-11-2012, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by Paintballguy

I think the Ravens want to stay with Flacco, but I don't think Biscuit wants to pay Flacco with a brinks truck if Flacco is going to be inconsistent. I think they want to see Flacco without Cameron to see if Cameron was the issue.

Correct. Time for Joe to show consistency. If he and Jim Caldwell make ingame adjustments when something isn't working then I'll be impressed. I also expect them to keep the pedal to the metal if something IS working and not to let up like Cam would (see: Redskins game 2nd half).

**pat sec 527** · 12-11-2012, 10:05 AM

I gonna make just comment 1 on this thread. Drew Breeze And Cam Cameron were together and Breeze wasn't considered great until Shaun Peyton. Now hopefully Jim Caldwell will do the same for Joe

**lobachevsky** · 12-11-2012, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by pat sec 527

I gonna make just comment 1 on this thread. Drew Breeze And Cam Cameron were together and Breeze wasn't considered great until Shaun Peyton. Now hopefully Jim Caldwell will do the same for Joe

Um, two things. First, welcome to the board, newby. Second, people will be more likely to pay attention to what you post if you spell names like Drew Brees & Sean Payton correctly.

**Paintballguy** · 12-11-2012, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by pat sec 527

I gonna make just comment 1 on this thread. Drew Breeze And Cam Cameron were together and Breeze wasn't considered great until Shaun Peyton. Now hopefully Jim Caldwell will do the same for Joe

This has already been covered in great detail.

**B-more Ravor** · 12-11-2012, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by JohnBKistler

I don't necessarily disagree with you here, Gota. But then I got to ask, where the hell was Bisciotti and Newsome in the off-season?

It's been my opinion that Cam would have been gone last offseason had a "viable" (ie what Harbaugh and the FO felt was viable - solid, veteran OC) OC candidate been available. But, once Shurmur and Norv weren't fired (and Kubiak the year before), they didn't feel that there was anyone out there worth firing Cam for.

I don't think they wanted a first-time OC to work with Flacco, especially since Harbaugh doesn't have much experience on that side of the ball. So, it was basically Brad Childress or Cam. Personally, as much as I wanted Cam gone, if that was the choice, Cam doesn't look so bad to me.

**wickedsolo** · 12-11-2012, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by B-more Ravor

It's been my opinion that Cam would have been gone last offseason had a "viable" (ie what Harbaugh and the FO felt was viable - solid, veteran OC) OC candidate been available. But, once Shurmur and Norv weren't fired (and Kubiak the year before), they didn't feel that there was anyone out there worth firing Cam for.

I don't think they wanted a first-time OC to work with Flacco, especially since Harbaugh doesn't have much experience on that side of the ball. So, it was basically Brad Childress or Cam. Personally, as much as I wanted Cam gone, if that was the choice, Cam doesn't look so bad to me.

Good point and with guys like Pat Shurmer, Norv Turner, and some others potentially coming available, they may be in a better position this off-season (depending on how Caldwell does) to make more of a significant move with OC.

I'm hoping that whoever the OC is next season (including Caldwell) shakes up the coaching staff on the offensive side of the ball because Andy Moeller and Jeff Hostler have been here far too long and the OL and WRs, respectively, still make a lot of the same mistakes. The only offensive coach worth keeping around is Wilbert Montgomery.

**trailhiker85** · 12-11-2012, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

Good point and with guys like Pat Shurmer, Norv Turner, and some others potentially coming available, they may be in a better position this off-season (depending on how Caldwell does) to make more of a significant move with OC.

I'm hoping that whoever the OC is next season (including Caldwell) shakes up the coaching staff on the offensive side of the ball because Andy Moeller and Jeff Hostler have been here far too long and the OL and WRs, respectively, still make a lot of the same mistakes. The only offensive coach worth keeping around is Wilbert Montgomery.

I have to think that these past few weeks have improved the odds of Pat Shurmur keeping his HC job in Cleveland. The Brownies have already won more games than they did in 2011. They'll still end up in the AFCN cellar but they actually seem to be showing improvement.

Not sure how I feel about the prospect of Norv Turner becoming OC here. I know he's got the resume, and would be an upgrade over Cam, but I can't say I'd be jumping with joy over the prospect. I certainly agree with you where Moeller is concerned, though.

**wickedsolo** · 12-11-2012, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by trailhiker85

I have to think that these past few weeks have improved the odds of Pat Shurmur keeping his HC job in Cleveland. The Brownies have already won more games than they did in 2011. They'll still end up in the AFCN cellar but they actually seem to be showing improvement.

Not sure how I feel about the prospect of Norv Turner becoming OC here. I know he's got the resume, and would be an upgrade over Cam, but I can't say I'd be jumping with joy over the prospect. I certainly agree with you where Moeller is concerned, though.

Also a valid point and I agree about Norv Turner. He doesn't excite me.

**B-more Ravor** · 12-11-2012, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by RavingMad

Bisciotti and Ozzie aren't totally sold on Flacco.

I'm not so sure on that RM. Bisciotti said last Spring/Summer that Flacco was going nowhere and that they had made an offer to Flacco that was more than what many people would expect.

Now, perhaps that was just window-dressing - or that their thinking has changed - but he seemed pretty sold on Flacco (at least, at that point).

**Dirt1** · 12-11-2012, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by B-more Ravor

I'm not so sure on that RM. Bisciotti said last Spring/Summer that Flacco was going nowhere and that they had made an offer to Flacco that was more than what many people would expect.

Now, perhaps that was just window-dressing - or that their thinking has changed - but he seemed pretty sold on Flacco (at least, at that point).

Is it just possible that Ozzie and Bisciotti are sold on Flacco, but only at a certain price? I would love to get a 5-series BMW, and am sold on it at a price of $50,000, but not so much at $80,000.

**B-more Ravor** · 12-11-2012, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by Dirt1

Is it just possible that Ozzie and Bisciotti are sold on Flacco, but only at a certain price? I would love to get a 5-series BMW, and am sold on it at a price of $50,000, but not so much at $80,000.

Absolutely, but based on Bisciotti's comment, it sounds like it's still a pretty high number (although, obviously under what Flacco is/was seeking).

But, again, that may just have been playing to the PR game.

**edgecrusher** · 12-11-2012, 01:50 PM

We can all be mad at Harbaugh, but the guy has won a lot of football games and turned us into a dynasty of sorts. He is safe.

Same for Joe, really. Yeah, he is maddening but above-average QBs with huge arms don't grow on trees. Dumping Flacco and trying to draft someone from our usual draft position would be crazy.

**Dirt1** · 12-11-2012, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by edgecrusher

We can all be mad at Harbaugh, but the guy has won a lot of football games and turned us into a dynasty of sorts. He is safe.

Same for Joe, really. Yeah, he is maddening but above-average QBs with huge arms don't grow on trees. Dumping Flacco and trying to draft someone from our usual draft position would be crazy.

But what if a team gave the Ravens a Top 10 pick in the first round for Flacco? Then the Ravens wouldn't be drafting in the 20s. Yes, I am looking at you AZ, KC, JAX, or OAK.

**bmorecareful** · 12-11-2012, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by Dirt1

But what if a team gave the Ravens a Top 10 pick in the first round for Flacco? Then the Ravens wouldn't be drafting in the 20s. Yes, I am looking at you AZ, KC, JAX, or OAK.

Flacco is a quarterback who has the upside to go on the road and drive 92 yards against the best defense in the league for a last-second win. He has the upside to throw his way to a Super Bowl when his star running back is averaging 3 yards a carry. He has the upside to win any game in the NFL at any time anywhere.

I understand full well that his primary drawback is his ability to combine that kind of upside with maddening inconsistency, but I'm sorry, you don't throw that away for a top 10 draft pick, 50% of which end up being full blown BUSTS (as in not on the team or not even in football anymore) by years 4 or 5.

There are NO prospects in the draft who are such can't-miss locks as to make you give up on a guy like Flacco. Look at the Colts last year--they took Andrew Luck over Peyton Manning, and that was an incredibly difficult decision. But Manning was 37 years old with a neck hanging on by a thread at 20 million a year, while Andrew Luck was the best quarterback prospect since John Elway. You're not even talking about a decision like that! You're talking about dump Flacco, spin the wheel, and see how things fall! That is idiotic.

**ravensnhokies** · 12-11-2012, 02:21 PM

I hope the fanbase doesnt expect immediate miracles with Joe. He is gonna have to go through a cleansing process. Whether he doesnt want to admit it or not, Cam has had a big influence on Joe. I assume Jim's offense will have more shorter route options during a 3rd and 2, but Joe will probably see 1 on 1 coverage on the outside and instinctly want to throw that 9 route. As Yoda said.... He must unlean what he has learned. Take's time.