So is Flacco on the hot seat now, or is it Harbaugh?

**RavensQB** · 12-11-2012, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by ravensnhokies

I hope the fanbase doesnt expect immediate miracles with Joe. He is gonna have to go through a cleansing process. Whether he doesnt want to admit it or not, Cam has had a big influence on Joe. I assume Jim's offense will have more shorter route options during a 3rd and 2, but Joe will probably see 1 on 1 coverage on the outside and instinctly want to throw that 9 route. As Yoda said.... He must unlean what he has learned. Take's time.

I would agree somewhat. But some of the bigger plays this year he has hit players in a seam or coming in or out of the middle. Look at the locations of the TD throws last week. What was the routes.

**Dirt1** · 12-11-2012, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by bmorecareful

Flacco is a quarterback who has the upside to go on the road and drive 92 yards against the best defense in the league for a last-second win. He has the upside to throw his way to a Super Bowl when his star running back is averaging 3 yards a carry. He has the upside to win any game in the NFL at any time anywhere.

I understand full well that his primary drawback is his ability to combine that kind of upside with maddening inconsistency, but I'm sorry, you don't throw that away for a top 10 draft pick, 50% of which end up being full blown BUSTS (as in not on the team or not even in football anymore) by years 4 or 5.

There are NO prospects in the draft who are such can't-miss locks as to make you give up on a guy like Flacco. Look at the Colts last year--they took Andrew Luck over Peyton Manning, and that was an incredibly difficult decision. But Manning was 37 years old with a neck hanging on by a thread at 20 million a year, while Andrew Luck was the best quarterback prospect since John Elway. You're not even talking about a decision like that! You're talking about dump Flacco, spin the wheel, and see how things fall! That is idiotic.

So, is there any limit to what you would pay Flacco? What is idiotic is to hand Flacco a blank check, because you have no confidence in your FO to draft another QB. Russell Wilson was what a third round pick, and could be rookie of the year. I think Ozzie is a great GM, but in the entire time the Ravens have been in Baltimore, he has hit on one QB and one WR. (Flacco and Torrey Smith). What would be so shocking if Bisciotti turned to Ozzie and said, "Find me another good young QB in the draft"?

**bmorecareful** · 12-11-2012, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by Dirt1

So, is there any limit to what you would pay Flacco? What is idiotic is to hand Flacco a blank check, because you have no confidence in your FO to draft another QB. Russell Wilson was what a third round pick, and could be rookie of the year. I think Ozzie is a great GM, but in the entire time the Ravens have been in Baltimore, he has hit on one QB and one WR. (Flacco and Torrey Smith). What would be so shocking if Bisciotti turned to Ozzie and said, "Find me another good young QB in the draft"?

You are making this into a false dilemma, I.E., your argument is that there are only two options:

1) Pay Flacco a back-breaking salary that renders this team unable to compete ever again, or
2) Dump Flacco.

The reality is that both of those two things are unlikely. In your world, no team would ever be able to re-sign their quarterback.

The most likely scenario is that the Ravens re-sign Flacco to a deal both sides are comfortable with, and I believe that can happen. Another problem with your argument is that we have no idea what the present state of the negotiations are or who is asking for what. We will NEVER know those things, and don't assume the "leaked information" you get from the press is anything other than what it is--noise, fog, and misdirection.

**ravensnhokies** · 12-11-2012, 03:09 PM

I think the first stumbling block (and major one) was exorcising Cam. Now its just numbers.

I'd say 7yrs - 100-105M with $30-35M guaranteed with major incentives added on.

Joe's a $14M+/yr type QB with his skillset and potential. All the teams that dont have franchise QBs would easily pay that much for Joe on his POTENTIAL. The Ravens would probably be given a slight discount b/c they are winners, he is comfortable here... even more w/o Cam... yada yada. But he isn't gonna take a huge hometeam discount under his market value. Like or not it, Ravens have gotta come to grips with the fact that their aging Superstars just arent worth big chunks of the salary cap. Lewis and Reed are icons here and we would all love to see them get another SB ring here (1st one for Ed), but if it means jettisoning them to get someone younger, cheaper, more reliable healthwise and probably as good on the field in their place....count me in. At the end of the day, its a business, and the Ravens' job is to win.

**Dirt1** · 12-11-2012, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by bmorecareful

You are making this into a false dilemma, I.E., your argument is that there are only two options:

1) Pay Flacco a back-breaking salary that renders this team unable to compete ever again, or
2) Dump Flacco.

The reality is that both of those two things are unlikely. In your world, no team would ever be able to re-sign their quarterback.

The most likely scenario is that the Ravens re-sign Flacco to a deal both sides are comfortable with, and I believe that can happen. Another problem with your argument is that we have no idea what the present state of the negotiations are or who is asking for what. We will NEVER know those things, and don't assume the "leaked information" you get from the press is anything other than what it is--noise, fog, and misdirection.

Fair enough. You are correct that we don't know the state of the current negotiations. All we do know is that the Ravens made Flacco an offer that he rejected before the season started, but we don't know what the terms of that offer were. The Ravens have been negotiating with Flacco's agent for a while, so it is highly likely that proposed terms have been submitted by both sides, with no agreement as of yet. The rest is just speculation. I would love for Flacco to be resigned to a deal both sides agree with. The problem that you seem to be ignoring is that there appears to be a difference in perception regarding Flacco's value between Flacco and his agent and the Ravens. Sometimes those differences are not bridged, otherwise no player would leave their team.

**Dirt1** · 12-11-2012, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by ravensnhokies

I think the first stumbling block (and major one) was exorcising Cam. Now its just numbers.

I'd say 7yrs - 100-105M with $30-35M guaranteed with major incentives added on.

That is way too high for Flacco based on his performance to date. Major incentives on top of a $100+ million base, or a $100+ million base that includes major incentives?

**ravensnhokies** · 12-11-2012, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by Dirt1

That is way too high for Flacco based on his performance to date. Major incentives on top of a $100+ million base, or a $100+ million base that includes major incentives?

You're not paying Joe on performance to date... You're paying on Potential in the Future. Some team would give him that, and that's all it takes.

**Boulderraven** · 12-11-2012, 03:33 PM

RUMOR has it. It's Harbaugh. If season ended today he would be fired. He has the rest of the regular season and the playoffs to keep his job.

**Jsmoove** · 12-11-2012, 03:42 PM

its hard to believe harbs is on the hot seat

**Boulderraven** · 12-11-2012, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by Jsmoove

its hard to believe harbs is on the hot seat

I do too, but Biscuit doesnt like complacency. We'll see if the rumor is true. Their will be several coaching candidates of value this offseason. After about 5 years or so a coaches message in this era gets stale. Did he wait too long to fire CC? Who the hell knows.
I was surprise Biscuit fire BB after a 13-3 season the year before and then had an injury riddled one the next. I guess injuries aren't an excuse.

**wickedsolo** · 12-11-2012, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by bmorecareful

You are making this into a false dilemma, I.E., your argument is that there are only two options:

1) Pay Flacco a back-breaking salary that renders this team unable to compete ever again, or
2) Dump Flacco.

The reality is that both of those two things are unlikely. In your world, no team would ever be able to re-sign their quarterback.

The most likely scenario is that the Ravens re-sign Flacco to a deal both sides are comfortable with, and I believe that can happen. Another problem with your argument is that we have no idea what the present state of the negotiations are or who is asking for what. We will NEVER know those things, and don't assume the "leaked information" you get from the press is anything other than what it is--noise, fog, and misdirection.

Well, you did post that Flacco wasnt even willing to negotiate until Cam was out of the picture.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Forum Runner

**ActualSpamBot** · 12-11-2012, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by Boulderraven

RUMOR has it. It's Harbaugh. If season ended today he would be fired. He has the rest of the regular season and the playoffs to keep his job.

You are the king of unsubstantiated, baseless rumors with nothing to back them up.

Bisciotti has made it clear that his goal is to build a consistent contender and get rid of that "closing SuperBowl window" mentality. Harbs has done that. He's doing it this season despite a huge rash of injuries.

No coach in NFL history has started his career with five straight playoff appearances with qt least one win each year. Firing John would fly in the face of Steve's stated goals, and his style.

I think this Harbaugh hot seat talk is nothing but wishful thinking from his growing band of low football iq haters.

**Jsmoove** · 12-11-2012, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by Boulderraven

I do too, but Biscuit doesnt like complacency. We'll see if the rumor is true. Their will be several coaching candidates of value this offseason. After about 5 years or so a coaches message in this era gets stale. Did he wait too long to fire CC? Who the hell knows.
I was surprise Biscuit fire BB after a 13-3 season the year before and then had an injury riddled one the next. I guess injuries aren't an excuse.

I agree with this, it would be drastic move, I would think Harbs would have to completely lose the whole team before this happens though.

**Captain Silver** · 12-11-2012, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by Jsmoove

I agree with this, it would be drastic move, I would think Harbs would have to completely lose the whole team before this happens though.

Harbs doesn't have Rex stabbing his ass in the back, that's the difference.

**Jsmoove** · 12-11-2012, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by Captain Silver

Harbs doesn't have Rex stabbing his ass in the back, that's the difference.

no shit he sure threw billicks ass under the bus a few times, not to mention had the whole defense (which was the team) on his side.

**RavensQB** · 12-11-2012, 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot

You are the king of unsubstantiated, baseless rumors with nothing to back them up.

Bisciotti has made it clear that his goal is to build a consistent contender and get rid of that "closing SuperBowl window" mentality. Harbs has done that. He's doing it this season despite a huge rash of injuries.

No coach in NFL history has started his career with five straight playoff appearances with qt least one win each year. Firing John would fly in the face of Steve's stated goals, and his style.

I think this Harbaugh hot seat talk is nothing but wishful thinking from his growing band of low football iq haters.

Kinda like they would never fire and Offensive Cordinator this late in the season???

Or the first team in history to dump a QB that just won a Superbowl???

Or maybe Brian Billick when he was released and that was an overnight decision???

Ya ok...

**Jsmoove** · 12-11-2012, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by RavensQB

Kinda like they would never fire and Offensive Cordinator this late in the season???

Or the first team in history to dump a QB that just won a Superbowl???

Or maybe Brian Billick when he was released and that was an overnight decision???

Ya ok...

I would say this man has a point.

**Captain Silver** · 12-11-2012, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by Jsmoove

I would say this man has a point.

Doesn't matter, ASB HAS to protect the shield, no matter how obvious the gut feeling is

**Kevlar** · 12-11-2012, 04:26 PM

Big difference between Billick and Harbaugh. Bisciotti didn't hire Billick. He never went through the vetting process so who knows if there weren't some personal reasons for getting rid of Billick besides his lack luster performance. Maybe he didn't like Billick's hats, or his faux mensan vocabulary.

We know Bisciotti is comfortable with John Harbaugh. He brought John into the fold. So getting rid of John would be going against his own judgement, and be admitting he made a grave hiring error. Barring multiple losing seasons and the players quitting on John I just don't see it happening.

**Boulderraven** · 12-11-2012, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by Kevlar

Big difference between Billick and Harbaugh. Bisciotti didn't hire Billick. He never went through the vetting process so who knows if there weren't some personal reasons for getting rid of Billick besides his lack luster performance. Maybe he didn't like Billick's hats, or his faux mensan vocabulary.

We know Bisciotti is comfortable with John Harbaugh. He brought John into the fold. So getting rid of John would be going against his own judgement, and be admitting he made a grave hiring error. Barring multiple losing seasons and the players quitting on John I just don't see it happening.

Billionaires dont become billionaires by not taking risks. Hiring a ST coach with no HC experience was a HUGE risk, drafting a non BCS QB in the first rounds was a HUGE risk. I am not surprised by anything Steve does. He is a forward thinker.