The Baltimore Ravens need to be build around Joe Flacco.

[wickedsolo]

If those guys walk, we'll be in rebuild mode next year.

I disagree.

Leach - he's great, but he's expensive and the Ravens don't use him enough to really justify that paycheck. Plus, the Texans have fared well without him running the ball and they have James Casey filling in for him. Casey is a converted TE. Secondly, if it comes down to a 32/33 year old expensive fullback vs a 27/28 year old franchise QB, guess who wins?

Boldin - like Leach, he's great, but the Ravens have drafted Tandon Doss, Tommy Streeter, Deonte Thompson, and they could potentially keep Jacoby. They could also draft another WR and there are some good WR prospects that could assume a function similar to Boldin. The point is, Boldin is also older, expensive, and at some point you have to try and justify paying a 33 year old WR nearly $7 mill. I'm hoping that he'll take a pay cut.

Ed Reed - The guy can still play centerfield, but his nagging injuries make him a big liability against the run. Secondly, for as many picks as he can get, he blows a lot of assignments too. This could also come down to a cost issue. I'm sure the Ravens would love to keep him for another year, but how do you justify big money to a soone-to-be 35 year old with significant injuries?

Ray Lewis - did you watch him play earlier this year? I love the guy as much as the next fan, but he provides very little on the field. Money spent on him could be spent on keeping Ellerbe, who is something like 12 years younger and was really impressive before getting hurt.

Jacoby Jones - Explosive kick returner, no doubt, and he has a lot of speed...however he still has issues with dropped passes (the whole team does, so I won't or can't fault him too much on that) and he is going to be expensive ($4mill) next year. Furthermore, it appears that Doss has started eating into Jacoby's snaps...how do you justify a $4million cap hit for a return specialist who may be 4th on the totem pole of receivers?

[wickedsolo]

Bisciotti is not going to let Flacco walk and get nothing in return. But he might franchise Flacco and then trade him if Flacco will not agree to what Bisciotti/Ozzie feel is a reasonable contract. That would be in line with their right player/right price philosophy. If the Ravens cut all of those guys so that they can pay Flacco, is Flacco good enough to compensate for those losses?

I just can't see them trading him either. There is no guarantee with whoever you bring in after Flacco and while Flacco has been inconsistent, he has shown that he can be one of the best in the league and it is just getting him to the point where he plays at that level each week.

Sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't.

The ONLY reason I am comparing Flacco to those QBs is because he wants to be paid like them.

Fair enough.

It isn't just you though. I hear folks all the time trying to compare Flacco to Peyton, to Eli, to Roethlisberger, to Brees, to whoever...hell, I've been guilty of it.

I just think that comparing Flacco to any of the top rated QB's of the past 5 years is a lose lose situation. If, and only if, Flacco hasn't had the weapons that those guys have had, a lot of those QB's don't play the Steelers twice a year (their D is always incredible), and more importantly, the offensive dynamic and philosophy of those teams are leaps and bounds more creative than what the Ravens have had.

[Dirt1]

We are all fans and sometimes get emotional about the players we like. Bisciotti is a businessman, and at the end of the day is going to make a business decision about Flacco and Harbaugh. If at the end of the season, Bisciotti says, "Joe, I love you, but I think you are worth 6 years $72 million and that is my final offer", and Flacco responds, "Steve, I appreciate your generous offer, but I am not going to sign for that amount, I think I am worth $100+ million", then Flacco will be franchised and might be traded. If Flacco wants to be paid like the top QBs of the past decade, then he has to have production to match.

[wickedsolo]

We are all fans and sometimes get emotional about the players we like. Bisciotti is a businessman, and at the end of the day is going to make a business decision about Flacco and Harbaugh. If at the end of the season, Bisciotti says, "Joe, I love you, but I think you are worth 6 years $72 million and that is my final offer", and Flacco responds, "Steve, I appreciate your generous offer, but I am not going to sign for that amount, I think I am worth $100+ million", then Flacco will be franchised and might be traded. If Flacco wants to be paid like the top QBs of the past decade, then he has to have production to match.

So, what if he comes out these next 3 weeks and hangs 300+ yards each week, a handful of TD's and no turnovers?

Does that change your opinion?

[Dirt1]

So, what if he comes out these next 3 weeks and hangs 300+ yards each week, a handful of TD's and no turnovers?

Does that change your opinion?

My opinion isn't important, but I am a Flacco fan. Does it change Bisciotti's opinion? I don't know. I don't know if 3-4 games is enough time to make such an evaluation, which is why I agree with a bunch of posters that Cam should have been fired 2 years ago. However, it is an easier determination to make if the offense doesn't appreciably improve. If the Ravens pay Flacco $100+ million, they almost have to have an offense that puts up 30+ points/game on a regualar basis, because there won't be enough money to go around to also have a Top 10 defense. The last two weeks have been classic examples of games where the Ravens offense had to just out-score the opposing team to make up for a depleated defense, and couldn't get the job done.

[saintmatthew]

I have stated over and over again that I think Flacco is a very good QB. I don't need to look at film from when he was at Delaware, because he is in his 5th season in the NFL. That's not the question. The question is how much of the overall cap can the Ravens allocate to Flacco, and still have enough money to get the other pieces that they need for the team to be successful.

Those all-blue with yellow trim uniforms are so ugly it's almost criminal.

[RavensQB]

My opinion isn't important, but I am a Flacco fan. Does it change Bisciotti's opinion? I don't know. I don't know if 3-4 games is enough time to make such an evaluation, which is why I agree with a bunch of posters that Cam should have fired 2 years ago. However, it is an easier determination to make if the offense doesn't appreciably improve. If the Ravens pay Flacco $100+ million, they almost have to have an offense that puts up 30+ points/game on a regualar basis. The last two weeks have been classic examples of games where the Ravens offense had to just out-score the opposing team to make up for a depleated defense, and couldn't get the job done.

That has been the problem with this team. They have always lacked the killer instinct. Live by the sword, Die by the sword. Or in this case Joe Flacco.

[saintmatthew]

However, it is an easier determination to make if the offense doesn't appreciably improve.

Not really. If it doesn't improve you can blame it on Cam's system still being in place. if it does improve, you attribute it to a temporary morale boost unless the game plan is visibly, obviously different. I for one DO hope they blast the shit out of the next few defenses.

[Dirt1]

Not really. If it doesn't improve you can blame it on Cam's system still being in place. if it does improve, you attribute it to a temporary morale boost unless the game plan is visibly, obviously different. I for one DO hope they blast the shit out of the next few defenses.

Me too. I will be wearing my Ravens sweatshirt and cheering for them as hard I can on Sunday.

[nickh0801]

I disagree.

Leach - he's great, but he's expensive and the Ravens don't use him enough to really justify that paycheck. Plus, the Texans have fared well without him running the ball and they have James Casey filling in for him. Casey is a converted TE. Secondly, if it comes down to a 32/33 year old expensive fullback vs a 27/28 year old franchise QB, guess who wins?

Boldin - like Leach, he's great, but the Ravens have drafted Tandon Doss, Tommy Streeter, Deonte Thompson, and they could potentially keep Jacoby. They could also draft another WR and there are some good WR prospects that could assume a function similar to Boldin. The point is, Boldin is also older, expensive, and at some point you have to try and justify paying a 33 year old WR nearly $7 mill. I'm hoping that he'll take a pay cut.

Ed Reed - The guy can still play centerfield, but his nagging injuries make him a big liability against the run. Secondly, for as many picks as he can get, he blows a lot of assignments too. This could also come down to a cost issue. I'm sure the Ravens would love to keep him for another year, but how do you justify big money to a soone-to-be 35 year old with significant injuries?

Ray Lewis - did you watch him play earlier this year? I love the guy as much as the next fan, but he provides very little on the field. Money spent on him could be spent on keeping Ellerbe, who is something like 12 years younger and was really impressive before getting hurt.

Jacoby Jones - Explosive kick returner, no doubt, and he has a lot of speed...however he still has issues with dropped passes (the whole team does, so I won't or can't fault him too much on that) and he is going to be expensive ($4mill) next year. Furthermore, it appears that Doss has started eating into Jacoby's snaps...how do you justify a $4million cap hit for a return specialist who may be 4th on the totem pole of receivers?

So you want to take away 2 of the 3 main recievers (minus Pitta) that Flacco has chemistry with? Yeah, that should help Flacco out a lot. Besides, Jones hasn't had nearly as many drops as Boldin and Smith have!! If Reed and Leach would take a pay cut (which I highly doubt) then I'd welcome them back with open arms. Lewis will leave when he sees fit. I agree with you, I hope Boldin takes a pay cut because I'd like him to finish his career as a Raven.

[StingerNLG]

Please don't misunderstand me. I have always maintained that Flacco is a good enough QB to win a Super Bowl, provided the rest of the team is also strong. He isn't Brady, Rodgers, Manning, Brees, or Roethisberger though. All of thos QBs have carried their teams to victory despite having major deficiencies in their supporting cast. Look at what Brady and Rodgers have been able to do with no name RB, and WRs (Brady), and terrible defenses. Flacco cannot carry a team the way those players have. The Ravens offense still went through Ray Rice last year. Rice is the top offensive weapon on the Ravens, Flacco is #2. You don't pay the second best offensive weapon on your team $100+ million.

I would suggest that definitely Brees and Rodgers have great supporting casts.

And we need to remember something about Aaron Rodgers people forget. He was not a first year starter. He rode the bench behind Brett Favre for 3 seasons before becoming the starter. So he had a LOT of non-game practice time to do what he did. And it didn't hurt that Ryan Grant had back to back 1200 yard seasons and he had Donald Driver and Greg Jennings to throw to. I take nothing away from what Aaron Rodgers has done in his career, but it's also not the same situation Joe Flacco had.

Now look at Drew Brees. This is where all the correlations to Cam Cameron come in. His first couple years starting in San Diego were far FAR worse than Flacco's first few years. He had then a great year in 2004, but them regressed and hurt his shoulder. His passing yards never got to 4,000 and QB rating never really stabilized until he got to NO.

In fact, if you want to make the case that Flacco still has plenty of time to become an elite QB, it took Drew Brees 5 years and a new CITY to reach his potential. Brees was not close to elite for a while.

[bmoreraventerp]

So you want to take away 2 of the 3 main recievers (minus Pitta) that Flacco has chemistry with? Yeah, that should help Flacco out a lot. Besides, Jones hasn't had nearly as many drops as Boldin and Smith have!! If Reed and Leach would take a pay cut (which I highly doubt) then I'd welcome them back with open arms. Lewis will leave when he sees fit. I agree with you, I hope Boldin takes a pay cut because I'd like him to finish his career as a Raven.

My guess is they keep at least one of Boldin or Jones. If they cut both then the coaches will really like the young guys a lot and they draft a WR in 1st or 2nd round. I think the team will be in bigger rebuild mold if they trade Flacco than if they cut the 4 guys mentioned above. With no viable QB, we could be wasting Rice's prime years and history of RBs is they do not have many years in their tank.

[Boulderraven]

I think they have been doing that "building around Flacco", drafting OL, WR's, TE's, RB's a new offense. That's why Cameron got fired.

[wickedsolo]

So you want to take away 2 of the 3 main recievers (minus Pitta) that Flacco has chemistry with? Yeah, that should help Flacco out a lot. Besides, Jones hasn't had nearly as many drops as Boldin and Smith have!! If Reed and Leach would take a pay cut (which I highly doubt) then I'd welcome them back with open arms. Lewis will leave when he sees fit. I agree with you, I hope Boldin takes a pay cut because I'd like him to finish his career as a Raven.

Well, for starters, no...I do not want to take away weapons for Flacco. What I am saying is that they are going to have to make some really tough decisions financially. The guys I mentioned are older and expensive. It is hard to justify big paychecks to guys who arent really producing like that. For example, the Colts resigned Reggie Wayne to a 3 yr deal averaging a little less than 6 mill per year, but Wayne has been on fire this year.

Boldin is still good, but is he $7 mill good? Im not so sure.

Regarding Jones: of course he doesnt have as many drops...he doesnt have as many targets. Doss has taken a lot of Jacoby's snaps, which makes me think that he may just be a 1 year rental because it would be hard to pay $4 mill to a #3 or #4 receiver.

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[wickedsolo]

My guess is they keep at least one of Boldin or Jones. If they cut both then the coaches will really like the young guys a lot and they draft a WR in 1st or 2nd round. I think the team will be in bigger rebuild mold if they trade Flacco than if they cut the 4 guys mentioned above. With no viable QB, we could be wasting Rice's prime years and history of RBs is they do not have many years in their tank.

Exactly, look at Jacksonville.

Solid D. One of the top backs in the league (MJD). Decent TE.

No QB.

Completely wasted a lot of MJD's career.

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[Boulderraven]

Well, for starters, no...I do not want to take away weapons for Flacco. What I am saying is that they are going to have to make some really tough decisions financially. The guys I mentioned are older and expensive. It is hard to justify big paychecks to guys who arent really producing like that. For example, the Colts resigned Reggie Wayne to a 3 yr deal averaging a little less than 6 mill per year, but Wayne has been on fire this year.

Boldin is still good, but is he $7 mill good? Im not so sure.

Regarding Jones: of course he doesnt have as many drops...he doesnt have as many targets. Doss has taken a lot of Jacoby's snaps, which makes me think that he may just be a 1 year rental because it would be hard to pay $4 mill to a #3 or #4 receiver.

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Boldin had 3 receptions Sunday, 2 for TD's. But he was facing a guy who was on crutches all week. I would of went after that matchup all day until it was stopped repeatedly. Bolding is good as gone.

[Jsmoove]

Boldin had 3 receptions Sunday, 2 for TD's. But he was facing a guy who was on crutches all week. I would of went after that matchup all day until it was stopped repeatedly. Bolding is good as gone.

I didn't understand why we didn't abuse this match up.

[Captain Silver]

P.S.- captain, stop with all these new avatars. Put up your old one, the beer label. That is the one for you.

Fixed it, but still new... got my Woody Paige worked out of my system. I was feeling euphoric over the Cam firing, don't worry, I'm back to my surly self

Boldin had 3 receptions Sunday, 2 for TD's. But he was facing a guy who was on crutches all week. I would of went after that matchup all day until it was stopped repeatedly. Bolding is good as gone.

I didn't understand why we didn't abuse this match up.

Classic case here my friends. Just like Julian Edleman covering Boldin in the AFCC. Man I hope they move him to the slot and across the middle. I'd keep him around, restructure/ extend. His career here has been extended because he never really takes hard hit or delivers them the way he is utilized.

[OriAl]

It's a darn shame that it's taken five years for them to even begin to figure that out. When you look at all of the top quarterbacks in the league, they are surrounded by personnel dedicated to making them the best quarterbacks in the league. The vast majority of them have teams built around them and their talents. From system, to philosophy, to talent.

Teams have decided to push to make their QBs great and live and die with their leadership.

Here? No sir. Usually, when a QB is drafted in the first round, there is an asserted effort to build the team around that QB, who likely becomes the face of the franchise.

We already had one of those here and his name is Ray Lewis. So, when Joe showed up, he was asked to not screw things up for the defense, while they relied on the running game again and again.

Fives years of this. Well, guess what, Ray can't do it like he used to and this defense isn't doing it like they used to and the Ravens got caught with their pants down.

They might as well accept the fact that Joe Flacco will be the new face of the franchise and make a LEGITIMATE EFFORT, to build the team around him.

It gets on my nerves when I hear this talk about how, "Joe will never be elite" and "It's been five years, he'll never change".

Nobody can honestly sit here with a straight face and say that the Ravens have made a serious effort to build the team around Joe Flacco. His head coach hasn't, his coordinator hasn't, it took them FOUR YEARS to draft a WR of Torrey Smith's caliber. Joe was basically stuck with Mason and not much else, passing wise, for three years. His offensive lines have gone down the drain. They take the ball out of his hands at darn near every little mistake. Yet, suddenly ask him to pull it out at the last minute.

I will say it. Joe Flacco's inconsistency starts with the inconsistent support his development has received from the front office.

It is completely unfair to judge this man, compared to QBs who have enjoyed far stronger support and commitment from their front offices, before he gets the same luxury.

This should have been done two years ago, but everybody swore that defense and running the ball would do the trick. Only for the playoffs to show up, Joe to have to make the throws, only to make them and have em' dropped, as if he's bringing a knife to a gun fight, which he is.

For four years, we sat here and talked about how Joe hardly ever saw a completed pass that wasn't perfectly placed. Meanwhile, Welker is snatching anything low, high and indifferent. Calvin Johnson is beating freakin triple coverage in the red zone.

The fact that Joe Flacco has accomplished as much as he has, given the circumstances, is impressive if you ask me.

Build an offensive system around him, give him a line and give him multiple WRs that can scare a defense.

Watch what happens.

This is what happened with Boller. The Ravens were a run-oriented team, with an offensive line built primarily to run block. He had one reliable receiver for most of his time here (Heap.) It certainly wasn't an offense built to maximize his abilities. Add an unimaginative OC (Cavanaugh), and you see what we got.

Hopefully, Joe will now get to play in an offensive scheme that fits his abilities. Note to JC - Joe can do well on rollouts, so use them.

[The Excellector]

Brady and Manning are rarely sacked. Is that because their offensive lines are incredible, or because the QB is decisive and gets the ball out fast? How good is Wes Welker away from Brady? Brady still had a great offense when he was throwing the ball to a slew of ex- Florida Gator WRs who couldn't catch on anywhere else. Also, who have the Patriots had at RB? Danny Woodhead? Really? How good has the Steelers OL been for years? They have been pretty bad, but the Steelers continued to have very good offenses. For the last time, I think Flacco is a very good QB, who is good enough to win a Super Bowl with, but if the Ravens pay him what he wants, he is not good enough to make up for lesser talent that they will have in other areas due to the percentage of the cap that he will command.

Wes Welker was brought in, along with Randy Moss, because Tom Brady's offensive weaponry couldn't keep up with Peyton's in the AFC Championship Game, where Caldwell dropped two would-be TD passes that Moss doesn't drop in a coma. That's when Brady's offensive numbers took off. When Moss and Welker arrived.