This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

**RavensRule21215** · 12-18-2012, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

Point being, this team can win with average play at the QB position, providing players come back healthy and we sign some good players and use some high round picks to fix the opine. Why pay through the nose for slightly above average, when you can get someone much cheaper for average play. A guy like Alex Smith is only going to be a stop gap before there comes a long a good draft filled with decent QB prospects, perhaps like this years draft which now has six (seven if you count Cousins as a starter after Sunday) rookies starting for their teams, three of whom look likely to lead their teams into the play offs.

And how well did that work out for the Ravens BEFORE Joe Flacco arrived, and when the Ravens D was much more formidable than it is now?

**leachisabeast** · 12-18-2012, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by LC_Ravens_87

Sounds pretty risky too me with a 27 year old QB who's started every game and done enough to get his team into the playoffs every year he's been in the league...If there's 1 thing you can't do in the NFL it's cheap out at the QB position.

I understand your point, but I think your wholly and completely 100% wrong. Flacco's good enough to get it done (see 2011 AFCC) and it's looking like Ozzie's going to get him for a lot cheaper than any of us thought back in August.

Don't really want to see my team dump the (1) starting QB, (2) sign a stop-gap guy, and (3) hope for a new savior at some undetermined and unknown future time. Not a winning formula if you ask me.

Once again another guy not understanding my point fully. This is all assuming Flacco is still looking for top 5 money. If Flacco signs with the deal he was originally offered, then I'd be happy with that. My argument was not that Flacco was good enough, we all know that he's good enough. My argument was that he isn't good enough without a supporting cast, and we can't afford a supporting cast when we're giving Flacco 14 million a year.

**leachisabeast** · 12-18-2012, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by RavensRule21215

And how well did that work out for the Ravens BEFORE Joe Flacco arrived, and when the Ravens D was much more formidable than it is now?

We won a SB? lol

Our defense was pretty damn good between 08 and 2011. Before Flacco got here, we still had some pretty good years too, it's not like we where losing every year.

**wickedsolo** · 12-18-2012, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

Point being, this team can win with average play at the QB position, providing players come back healthy and we sign some good players and use some high round picks to fix the opine. Why pay through the nose for slightly above average, when you can get someone much cheaper for average play. A guy like Alex Smith is only going to be a stop gap before there comes a long a good draft filled with decent QB prospects, perhaps like this years draft which now has six (seven if you count Cousins as a starter after Sunday) rookies starting for their teams, three of whom look likely to lead their teams into the play offs.

So, which QB coming out in the next 2-3 years will meet or exceed what Joe Flacco has done here?

**RavensRule21215** · 12-18-2012, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

We won a SB? lol

Our defense was pretty damn good between 08 and 2011. Before Flacco got here, we still had some pretty good years too, it's not like we where losing every year.

More like every other year.

But seriously...I think I get your point(s), but in a way it sounds a bit like you want to have your cake and eat it too. The Ravens made their cap bed, and it had nothing to do with Joe Flacco. It DID have everything to do with: Ngata, Suggs, Reed, Lewis, Birk, and others. So now what? Joe's supposed to offer up a home town discount to balance out the FO's indiscretion when it comes to the cap? Sorry...I don't think so. MAYBE if the team had at least shown Joe some respect and TRIED its BEST to build an offense to support him. But the O-line has stunk almost the entire time Joe's been here; the WRs are middle of the pack at best; and the decision to bring back Cameron at the start of this season just blew. So maybe...what's best for Joe isn't necessarily what's best for the Ravens, if you're seriously suggesting that he should take less just to have the privilege of staying here.

**wickedsolo** · 12-18-2012, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

We won a SB? lol

Our defense was pretty damn good between 08 and 2011. Before Flacco got here, we still had some pretty good years too, it's not like we where losing every year.

Defenses cannot win a championship anymore. This isn't 2000.

You have to have competent offensive play.

**leachisabeast** · 12-18-2012, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

Defenses cannot win a championship anymore. This isn't 2000.

You have to have competent offensive play.

But can you win a SB with average play at the QB position? I think you can, Eli Manning did in 2008, Ben Roethlisberger did in 2006 and somewhat in 2009 too.

Yes offensive competence is important, but I'm not sure if you need an elite QB to have that. Either way, Flacco isn't an elite QB, and probably will never become one, but the general agreement around here is that we can win with Flacco as the starting QB, but need a better supporting cast. Otherwise, we need a new QB if we don't have that supporting cast, because I don't think Flacco will ever be good enough to win us a championship off his arm.

And to answer your previous question... Johnny Football.

**Terpsfan82** · 12-18-2012, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

Once again another guy not understanding my point fully. This is all assuming Flacco is still looking for top 5 money. If Flacco signs with the deal he was originally offered, then I'd be happy with that. My argument was not that Flacco was good enough, we all know that he's good enough. My argument was that he isn't good enough without a supporting cast, and we can't afford a supporting cast when we're giving Flacco 14 million a year.

I'm at a loss as to why people don't understand your premise. It's like somehow if Flacco does get a 16-18 mil a year contract it would validate that he's "elite". At this point it would not make good business sense to invest that much into him, since he's proven that he cannot carry this team.

**kojo** · 12-18-2012, 06:19 PM

Theres no way Flacco gets top 5 money. He probably gets around Schaub's salary, especially if they get one and done this year. sadly, now that Cam is gone, the OL/WR in-effectiveness is getting exposed more to folks. The Raven's talent window closed, they should have gone to the SB last year, and could you imagine if they went and won? what do you guys think that wouldve did to Flacco's contract leverage? wild right?

**leachisabeast** · 12-18-2012, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by Terpsfan82

I'm at a loss as to why people don't understand your premise. It's like somehow if Flacco does get a 16-18 mil a year contract it would validate that he's "elite". At this point it would not make good business sense to invest that much into him, since he's proven that he cannot carry this team.

Well, thanks for understanding my point lol.

I think people don't even read half of what I write and just see me as a Flacco basher, I'm not, I'm just realistic about him. He simply is not worth 14 million in the 2013 season.

**leachisabeast** · 12-18-2012, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by RavensRule21215

More like every other year.

But seriously...I think I get your point(s), but in a way it sounds a bit like you want to have your cake and eat it too. The Ravens made their cap bed, and it had nothing to do with Joe Flacco. It DID have everything to do with: Ngata, Suggs, Reed, Lewis, Birk, and others. So now what? Joe's supposed to offer up a home town discount to balance out the FO's indiscretion when it comes to the cap? Sorry...I don't think so. MAYBE if the team had at least shown Joe some respect and TRIED its BEST to build an offense to support him. But the O-line has stunk almost the entire time Joe's been here; the WRs are middle of the pack at best; and the decision to bring back Cameron at the start of this season just blew. So maybe...what's best for Joe isn't necessarily what's best for the Ravens, if you're seriously suggesting that he should take less just to have the privilege of staying here.

How would it be a ''home town discount''? He hasn't played like he deserves the money he's asking for, that's the silver lining right there. Guys like Ray Rice, Suggs, Lewis and Ngata earned their big pay days, and got what pretty much any other team would have paid them. Flacco has earned his, but he certainly has not earned top 5 money.

**redmike34** · 12-18-2012, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

Well, thanks for understanding my point lol.

I think people don't even read half of what I write and just see me as a Flacco basher, I'm not, I'm just realistic about him. He simply is not worth 14 million in the 2013 season.

Right there with you guys...

But whatever. The FO will do whatever they do. I'll still root for the Ravens... even if I think they make a bad decision.

**JustaslowZ06** · 12-18-2012, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by RavensRule21215

More like every other year.

But seriously...I think I get your point(s), but in a way it sounds a bit like you want to have your cake and eat it too. The Ravens made their cap bed, and it had nothing to do with Joe Flacco. It DID have everything to do with: Ngata, Suggs, Reed, Lewis, Birk, and others. So now what? Joe's supposed to offer up a home town discount to balance out the FO's indiscretion when it comes to the cap? Sorry...I don't think so. MAYBE if the team had at least shown Joe some respect and TRIED its BEST to build an offense to support him. But the O-line has stunk almost the entire time Joe's been here; the WRs are middle of the pack at best; and the decision to bring back Cameron at the start of this season just blew. So maybe...what's best for Joe isn't necessarily what's best for the Ravens, if you're seriously suggesting that he should take less just to have the privilege of staying here.

Joe hasn't EARNED that kind of payday, the rest you mentioned DID. Sorry but Joe saying he's elite is a joke. He's not. he's an above average game manager and has been exposed. He should take what Romo got plus inflation and be happy because thats the most he should get. PERIOD. He CANNOT put the team on his back like the Manning's, Rodges, Brady's, Brees and Rapistbugers can. he just can't. He's a Rivers, Romo, Ryan, etc.. type player and even that is being liberal with his skillset.

**leachisabeast** · 12-18-2012, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by redmike34

Right there with you guys...

But whatever. The FO will do whatever they do. I'll still root for the Ravens... even if I think they make a bad decision.

**RavensRule21215** · 12-18-2012, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by JustaslowZ06

Joe hasn't EARNED that kind of payday, the rest you mentioned DID. Sorry but Joe saying he's elite is a joke. He's not. he's an above average game manager and has been exposed. He should take what Romo got plus inflation and be happy because thats the most he should get. PERIOD. He CANNOT put the team on his back like the Manning's, Rodges, Brady's, Brees and Rapistbugers can. he just can't. He's a Rivers, Romo, Ryan, etc.. type player and even that is being liberal with his skillset.

That's your opinion. And you're certainly entitled to it.

**purplepoe** · 12-18-2012, 06:37 PM

I keep hearing how Joe isn't gonna get the money he was previously looking.

I say it's a definitely possibility that the Flacco camp will still stand strong in their demands.

Sure, his play doesn't merit top 5 (or top 10 IMO) money but he knows the team is in a pickle.

Franchising him destroys the cap and is always a sticky situation, especially with QBs. And it doesn't address anything long term.

The Ravens can comeback after the season with an offer most of us fans think is fair. But what if he doesn't budge?

What if he says "I'll take my chances in the open market or franchise me"? He will point out that the team canned the OC during week 14 and that the entire 2012 season (on offense) never had a chance etc....

I honestly believe Flacco was asking for the moon prior to the season. To me that's the only scenario that explains why they are in the situation they are in now. And I don't believe that Flacco's camp is gonna accept alot less than they were asking for 4 months ago.

And that's gonna be a big problem.

PP

**bmorecareful** · 12-18-2012, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

So, which QB coming out in the next 2-3 years will meet or exceed what Joe Flacco has done here?

This is basically an impossible question to answer, but I'm going to come out and try to answer it in a nuanced way. With this coaching staff, with this offensive personnel, there is NO CHANCE any of the QBs coming out over the next few years would exceed what Flacco has done. I readily concede that.

All of the great QBs who have come out over the past few years have had success when paired with bright young coaches in very quarterback-friendly offensive systems. I think Andy Dalton is the best example, he was given a good supporting cast and Jay Gruden who's a genius OC with a very QB-friendly WCO. Dalton himself isn't terribly talented and he went in the 2nd round. Kaepernick is similar, he has a lot of talent but was seen as a big project causing him to fall into the 2nd. He wouldn't be what he was now without Jim Harbaugh and his great system. Even Andrew Luck and RGIII have the support of brilliant play-callers and QB developers in Bruce Arians and the Shanahans.

Honestly, the chances of hitting on an Andy Dalton aren't terribly high... but we would maximize our chances if we committed the entire team to going all in on offense in terms of both the coaching staff and personnel. It would probably mean starting over with the coaching staff. It would involve growing pains. But the point would be getting a QB who makes good decisions, plays well under pressure, and manages the game well. I'm soured on the ultra-talented strong-armed QBs like Boller and Flacco... looking more at a WCO-friendly kind of guy like Zac Dysert, Ryan Nassib, Aaron Murray (2013) or AJ McCarron, Derek Carr, Brynn Renner (2014)

**RavensRule21215** · 12-18-2012, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by purplepoe

I keep hearing how Joe isn't gonna get the money he was previously looking.

I say it's a definitely possibility that the Flacco camp will still stand strong in their demands.

Sure, his play doesn't merit top 5 (or top 10 IMO) money but he knows the team is in a pickle.

Franchising him destroys the cap and is always a sticky situation, especially with QBs. And it doesn't address anything long term.

The Ravens can comeback after the season with an offer most of us fans think is fair. But what if he doesn't budge?

What if he says "I'll take my chances in the open market or franchise me"? He will point out that the team canned the OC during week 14 and that the entire 2012 season (on offense) never had a chance etc....

I honestly believe Flacco was asking for the moon prior to the season. To me that's the only scenario that explains why they are in the situation they are in now. And I don't believe that Flacco's camp is gonna accept alot less than they were asking for 4 months ago.

And that's gonna be a big problem.

PP

Well...(not disagreeing)...but when the Ravens want to run the "it's just business" up the flag pole, everyone supports them. So if Joe's camp chooses to run the "it's just business" up the flag pole, is it any different? Doe Joe OWE the Ravens anything above and beyond giving them the opportunity to give him what other teams would be willing to give him? Not to my way of thinking. So yeah, it's a problem. That's a part of life in the big city.

**leachisabeast** · 12-18-2012, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by RavensRule21215

Well...(not disagreeing)...but when the Ravens want to run the "it's just business" up the flag pole, everyone supports them. So if Joe's camp chooses to run the "it's just business" up the flag pole, is it any different? Doe Joe OWE the Ravens anything above and beyond giving them the opportunity to give him what other teams would be willing to give him? Not to my way of thinking. So yeah, it's a problem. That's a part of life in the big city.

Yes but why cripple this team for years just to pay him what he wants? He just doesn't deserve that money, there really is no other way around it, you can go into this and that about Flacco, but the facts are, he just isn't a top 5 QB, end of story. So with that said, why pay Flacco top 5 money when he clearly isn't a top 5 QB? I just don't see how that makes sense.

**purplepoe** · 12-18-2012, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by RavensRule21215

Well...(not disagreeing)...but when the Ravens want to run the "it's just business" up the flag pole, everyone supports them. So if Joe's camp chooses to run the "it's just business" up the flag pole, is it any different? Doe Joe OWE the Ravens anything above and beyond giving them the opportunity to give him what other teams would be willing to give him? Not to my way of thinking. So yeah, it's a problem. That's a part of life in the big city.

I agree with any team running the "it's just business" approach if a player is asking for top 5 money when he clearly doesn't deserve it.

Honestly, I don't care what other teams "would" give Flacco. It's pretty easy to find a bunch of horrible QB contracts out there. If Joe Flacco doesn't like or accept what the Ravens feel is a fair offer (which already happened 4 months ago) then he can walk. I'm not saying that's necessarily ideal but neither is overpaying for him.

There are a bunch of moving parts with this thing. The next 3 (or more) games could swing things as well.

What we are seeing play out is exactly the reason teams should never let a QB situation get to this.

PP