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  1. #181

    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money



    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    And you think that compares to the Falcons bringing in a guy like Jones, when they already had White, Turner, and Gonzalez? And the Ravens, despite their promise to improve the O-line, couldn't even re-sign Grubbs, and the O-line is worse this year than last year. Sorry. It all pales by comparison, IMO. And honestly, if that's the best they can do, I think Joe can find a better situation elsewhere.
    More outcome bias. You're judging uncertain decisions by their results, which isn't fair. They drafted to give him help and spent roughly half their picks on offense. Nobody knew at the time that Oniel Cousins (3rd round pick), Michael Oher (1st round pick), Ed Dickson (4th), David Reed (5th), and Jah Reid (3rd) would all disappoint/bust. They also went out and signed Birk, Stallworth, re-signed Mason, traded for Boldin, re-signed Yanda, signed Leach, signed Jacoby Jones, re-signed Rice...

    You can't hold it against the Ravens that a lot of those moves didn't pan out. They tried, it just didn't work. If the Falcons had brought in Julio Jones and he had busted, people would be lambasting them to for such a risky decision. I don't fault the Ravens one bit for not being risky, it just hasn't worked out.

    The "they haven't surrounded Flacco with talent" argument is just not true, IMO. It might not have worked, but they certainly tried.




  2. #182

    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    There is definitely something to the "supporting cast" argument, but I don't think any of our offensive units are among the worst in the league. I'd say they're strictly average, for the most part. The WR group looked like one of the best in the league earlier in the season when Flacco was playing better. They have a very solid pass-catching TE, and their RBs are among the very best in the league.



    The OL is average overall WITH Yanda, chiefly because they run block pretty well, without Yanda it's certainly below average but it's still not one of the worst units in the league. And again, when Flacco has played well, it's made the OL look better. I don't believe he was sacked at all vs. Cincinnati in game one despite facing some pressure and that's because he got the ball out more quickly.
    What happened is that defenses adjusted to what the offense was doing which wouldn't have been a problem if the offense adjusted with it but alas that was one of Cams biggest (also proven) faults, that he refuses to adjust to what the defense was giving him.


    The bottom line is that even if there's something to the "supporting cast" argument, I don't think you can forget that it goes both ways. Flacco could help his WRs look better by throwing more catchable balls and getting the ball out in better rhythm. He could help his OL by not holding the ball so long or by moving around the pocket to buy time. It's a symbiotic relationship where even ONE elite or very good unit can make all the other units look better. We don't have a single elite or very good unit and that includes Flacco
    .

    I agree and that's what a lot of us have been saying, the offense has a whole has underachieved yet Flacco get's the majority of the blame.

    Maybe its because having a Brady, Manning etc. type alleviates some of those problems but we all know he's not there yet, nor are any of his comparable comrades (Ryan, Sanchez, Freeman etc.)


    It's kind of interesting because the more I look back on it I actually think Flacco was a totally different player in 2009 and 2010, especially in 2009. I think 2009 would have been the best year of his career if he didn't get hurt vs. Minnesota. I want to go back and re-watch games from 09 very closely to figure out what was going on then. Obviously we had an elite OL and the run game was excellent that year, but our pass-catching group wasn't as good as this year IMO and I also recall Flacco just plain playing better independent of other factors and particularly better under pressure that year. What changed?
    Looking back at those games Joe seemed to have a better feel of the pocket and would move around to make plays




  3. #183

    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    More outcome bias. You're judging uncertain decisions by their results, which isn't fair. They drafted to give him help and spent roughly half their picks on offense. Nobody knew at the time that Oniel Cousins (3rd round pick), Michael Oher (1st round pick), Ed Dickson (4th), David Reed (5th), and Jah Reid (3rd) would all disappoint/bust. They also went out and signed Birk, Stallworth, re-signed Mason, traded for Boldin, re-signed Yanda, signed Leach, signed Jacoby Jones, re-signed Rice...

    You can't hold it against the Ravens that a lot of those moves didn't pan out. They tried, it just didn't work. If the Falcons had brought in Julio Jones and he had busted, people would be lambasting them to for such a risky decision. I don't fault the Ravens one bit for not being risky, it just hasn't worked out.

    The "they haven't surrounded Flacco with talent" argument is just not true, IMO. It might not have worked, but they certainly tried.
    N/P. We'll agree to disagree.




  4. #184
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    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    PLEASE show me where the Ravens have shown their dedication to surrounding Joe with better players.
    This is a loaded question because being dedicated to trying to get Flacco better weapons and better players does not always translate to on-field production. I agree that the Ravens front office has taken the approach of bargain shopping in the draft too much the past couple of years, but you would have a hard time proving that they are not trying to get better.

    I also think that this very topic could be a sticking point in negotiations with Flacco. If I am Flacco I want a say in who the team targets in the draft and free agency.

    Torrey, Doss, Jacoby, Pitta, KO, Rice, Pierce, Leach, retaining Yanda, trying to sign Evan Mathis...the point is that it isn't like this team is solely geared towards building out the defense.

    This is also where the coaching staff needs to step in and say "Ozzie, Eric D, Mr. Bisciotti...we need better players at ____________ position(s) because the guys we have right now just aren't very good for what we're trying to do here."
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  5. #185

    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Quote Originally Posted by Justlovemybirds View Post
    Looking back at those games Joe seemed to have a better feel of the pocket and would move around to make plays
    IIRC, he had Mason and Heap -- genuine "go to" guys. Who are the genuine "go to" guys now? (Also, the O-line was more intact, and the play calling as a bit more varied.)




  6. #186

    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    This is a loaded question because being dedicated to trying to get Flacco better weapons and better players does not always translate to on-field production. I agree that the Ravens front office has taken the approach of bargain shopping in the draft too much the past couple of years, but you would have a hard time proving that they are not trying to get better.

    I also think that this very topic could be a sticking point in negotiations with Flacco. If I am Flacco I want a say in who the team targets in the draft and free agency.

    Torrey, Doss, Jacoby, Pitta, KO, Rice, Pierce, Leach, retaining Yanda, trying to sign Evan Mathis...the point is that it isn't like this team is solely geared towards building out the defense.

    This is also where the coaching staff needs to step in and say "Ozzie, Eric D, Mr. Bisciotti...we need better players at ____________ position(s) because the guys we have right now just aren't very good for what we're trying to do here."
    Good reasonable post.

    And even though it's somewhat moot, and water over the dam now...what impact do you think re-signing Cameron had on all of this, if any?




  7. #187
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    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    And you think that compares to the Falcons bringing in a guy like Jones, when they already had White, Turner, and Gonzalez? And the Ravens, despite their promise to improve the O-line, couldn't even re-sign Grubbs, and the O-line is worse this year than last year. Sorry. It all pales by comparison, IMO. And honestly, if that's the best they can do, I think Joe can find a better situation elsewhere.
    Not every player wants to play in Baltimore.

    It was well known that Ben Grubbs wanted to play in the south as he's from the south and has family down there.

    I'll never understand why fans don't take these types of things into consideration. There is a reason why big time players rarely sign with teams like Cleveland or Jacksonville...and it isn't because they aren't offering big contracts to them. You have guys like Mario Williams who took the money and didn't think about the team, but then you have guys like Evan Mathis who re-signed with the Eagles because he liked playing in Philly. It probably wouldn't have mattered what the Ravens offered Mathis because he was using it as leverage for his ultimate goal of re-signing with the Eagles. The same thing happened with Malcom Floyd last year.
    Last edited by wickedsolo; 12-19-2012 at 10:38 AM.
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  8. #188

    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Not ever player wants to play in Baltimore.

    It was well known that Ben Grubbs wanted to play in the south as he's from the south and has family down there.

    I'll never understand why fans don't take these types of things into consideration. There is a reason why big time players rarely sign with teams like Cleveland or Jacksonville...and it isn't because they aren't offering big contracts to them. You have guys like Mario Williams who took the money and didn't think about the team, but then you have guys like Evan Mathis who re-signed with the Eagles because he liked playing in Philly. It probably wouldn't have mattered what the Ravens offered Mathis because he was using it as leverage for his ultimate goal of re-signing with the Eagles. The same thing happened with Malcom Floyd last year.
    You seriously think Grubbs "desire to play in the south" was the real motivating factor? Seriously?!!

    But more importantly...if you were Joe Flacco, money aside, would YOU want to play on this team for the rest of your career? Have the Ravens really shown that they know how to put together a top tier, elite offense as a whole?




  9. #189

    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    This is a loaded question because being dedicated to trying to get Flacco better weapons and better players does not always translate to on-field production. I agree that the Ravens front office has taken the approach of bargain shopping in the draft too much the past couple of years, but you would have a hard time proving that they are not trying to get better.

    I also think that this very topic could be a sticking point in negotiations with Flacco. If I am Flacco I want a say in who the team targets in the draft and free agency.

    Torrey, Doss, Jacoby, Pitta, KO, Rice, Pierce, Leach, retaining Yanda, trying to sign Evan Mathis...the point is that it isn't like this team is solely geared towards building out the defense.

    This is also where the coaching staff needs to step in and say "Ozzie, Eric D, Mr. Bisciotti...we need better players at ____________ position(s) because the guys we have right now just aren't very good for what we're trying to do here."
    I think it was either HoustonRaven or The Fanatic who mentioned that there was possible a disconnect between the Coaching staff and Scouting department, that needs to fixed with a quickness




  10. #190
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    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    IIRC, he had Mason and Heap -- genuine "go to" guys. Who are the genuine "go to" guys now? (Also, the O-line was more intact, and the play calling as a bit more varied.)
    The one thing that Mason was really good at was finding soft zones and getting open. We don't have any receiver that can (or is) do that right now.

    I also think it is very strange that when Mason was here, the offenses bread and butter in the passing game was hitting those comeback/sideline routes. They hardly ever run effective comeback routes anymore and when they do defenses are undercutting them.

    Along with being able to find soft zones, Mason had very good hands and so did Heap. Those guys rarely dropped passes.
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  11. #191
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    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    You seriously think Grubbs "desire to play in the south" was the real motivating factor? Seriously?!!

    But more importantly...if you were Joe Flacco, money aside, would YOU want to play on this team for the rest of your career? Have the Ravens really shown that they know how to put together a top tier, elite offense as a whole?
    Absolutely. Why wouldn't it be? If he really wanted to play for a team down south...knew the Saints were interested...knew that he could still play for a winning team with the Saints...and they were offering a similar contract that Baltimore was offering...why is that so hard to comprehend? These are PEOPLE you know and sometimes they do actually take other things into consideration besides money.

    I mean, how many times have we brought in free agents who ultimately signed here because they were so impressed with the Owens Mills complex? I recall Matt Birk talking about how the Ravens really "wow'ed" him when they brought him in for free agent visits. He liked the area, he liked the school systems, he liked the community, and he liked the facilities. Those were big reasons for why Birk signed in Baltimore, because I promise you that at the time there were several other suitors knocking on Birk's door with contract offers in hand.
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  12. #192

    Re: This team won't have a chance at competing if we pay Flacco big money

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Absolutely. Why wouldn't it be? If he really wanted to play for a team down south...knew the Saints were interested...knew that he could still play for a winning team with the Saints...and they were offering a similar contract that Baltimore was offering...why is that so hard to comprehend? These are PEOPLE you know and sometimes they do actually take other things into consideration besides money.

    I mean, how many times have we brought in free agents who ultimately signed here because they were so impressed with the Owens Mills complex? I recall Matt Birk talking about how the Ravens really "wow'ed" him when they brought him in for free agent visits. He liked the area, he liked the school systems, he liked the community, and he liked the facilities. Those were big reasons for why Birk signed in Baltimore, because I promise you that at the time there were several other suitors knocking on Birk's door with contract offers in hand.
    Okay. I just think that the biggest motivator for a player is to play for a team that has a legit shot to win it all. And in that regard, sure, I'd put the Ravens in the list. But the SAINTS? Aside from this year, that'd be a dream come true for an offensive lineman with Grubbs talent, IMO. So that would be THE main motivating factor; not that the team plays in the south. Just my 2 cents, though.

    As far as Joe, though...IMO, I think an argument can be made that Joe has done more for the Ravens than the Ravens have done for Joe. And ultimately I think that's going to be the deciding factor in where Joe chooses to play. This whole year has been an effort in frustration for him, and he's taken all the heat. Maybe it's one of those situations where it's in everyone's best interest to start fresh somewhere else (for Joe) and WITH someone else (for the Ravens).




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