Joe 'Manned Up'

[ActualSpamBot]

I actually think Flacco is slightly better than Matt Ryan. I have them in both the same tier of QB's (second tier).

Well Mattie is currently on a 6 year 66 million dollar deal that is universally expected to be turned into a 100 million dollar plus deal. Why would that be a good move for Atlanta but a bad one for us? Or do you think Atlanta should jettison Ryan next season and trade for Matt Flynn?

[HoustonRaven]

So when you play a bad defense, it's just as hard to play a good defense for a QB?

That must explain why statistically QB's don't do well against the top defenses in the league, and why defensive rankings even exists....

I like your stuff leach ....

.... which is why I am having a hard time understanding this WAY over the top logic when it comes to Flacco.

[Ravenswintitle]

I thought the thread had nothing to do with the way he played...

[wickedsolo]

They are ranked 13th in total defense believe it or not. http://www.pro-football-reference.co...s/2012/opp.htm

Here, I'm going to move some goal posts...

Without looking at that link...

Remove their redzone defensive stats and where do they rank?

[ActualSpamBot]

I'm not sure why you think any of the other examples you cite matter, though again, as I said, I was confused by your original statement, and am more confused now.

You claimed that Dilfer, over his career, outplayed Marino. You cite Dilfer's ring as proof. I listed other players and a coach who earned SuperBowl rings and asked if they have also outplayed a list of statistically much better counterparts who have not yet earned a ring.

So, I reiterate. Has Qadry Ishmail outplayed Boldin? Or are we only to judge QBs on team success?

[leachisabeast]

Well Mattie is currently on a 6 year 66 million dollar deal that is universally expected to be turned into a 100 million dollar plus deal. Why would that be a good move for Atlanta but a bad one for us? Or do you think Atlanta should jettison Ryan next season and trade for Matt Flynn?

His weapons have made him look way better than what he really is, which is why he's going to get over paid. Is he worth 100 million dollars? No, I don't think so, do Atlanta have any choice? No way. Do we have any choice with Flacco? Nope, especially if he gets us to the SB. Flacco has benefitted from a great defense (apart from this year) Ryan has benefited from a fucking awesome receiving core.

[leachisabeast]

Here, I'm going to move some goal posts...

Without looking at that link...

Remove their redzone defensive stats and where do they rank?

Because red zone defense and turnover ratio is totally not important.

[JMUpurkfool]

I like Joe.

I like pointing out the truth.

I don't like ignorance.

You can't win a Super Bowl in this league without the QB. Matt Flynn and Alex Smith are not that QB.

Trust that Ozzie understands that we have franchise QB on this team and that he will get him under a fair deal. Fair will be around 100 Million if the deal is 7 or so years. It's the going rate for QB's and a few bad stat lines won't drop Flacco's pay into Kevin Kolb territory.

[redmike34]

You claimed that Dilfer, over his career, outplayed Marino. You cite Dilfer's ring as proof. I listed other players and a coach who earned SuperBowl rings and asked if they have also outplayed a list of statistically much better counterparts who have not yet earned a ring.

So, I reiterate. Has Qadry Ishmail outplayed Boldin? Or are we only to judge QBs on team success?

I did no such thing. That's what you decided to read. What I said was "He did when it mattered," meaning the only game that really mattered out of Dilfer's ENTIRE career (as far as I'm concerned, SB 35), Dilfer was good enough to win it. By a bunch.

Marino? SB-whatever-he-lost? Not so much.

Your examples? Not relevant in context of what I meant.

Edit: with the best defense of all time on the other side of the ball, anyway... Would he have even had that opportunity otherwise?

[ActualSpamBot]

His weapons have made him look way better than what he really is, which is why he's going to get over paid. Is he worth 100 million dollars? No, I don't think so, do Atlanta have any choice? No way. Do we have any choice with Flacco? Nope, especially if he gets us to the SB. Flacco has benefitted from a great defense (apart from this year) Ryan has benefited from a fucking awesome receiving core.

In other words, you have a problem with what the market is currently setting as the bar to keep a franchise QB? Because this idea of what a player is "worth" is meaningless. A player is worth what he commands on the open market. The best kicker in the universe will only make about as much per year as the second best offensive lineman on your team. An average CB is worth more than an above average running back.

And a franchise QB is worth 100 million dollars give or take. That's just the way it is.

[JMUpurkfool]

His weapons have made him look way better than what he really is, which is why he's going to get over paid. Is he worth 100 million dollars? No, I don't think so, do Atlanta have any choice? No way. Do we have any choice with Flacco? Nope, especially if he gets us to the SB. Flacco has benefitted from a great defense (apart from this year) Ryan has benefited from a fucking awesome receiving core.

Ben R. - 8 yr, 102 million signed in 08
Eli Manning - 7 yr, 106 million signed in 09
Phillip Rivers - 7 yr, 98 million signed in 09

Joe and Matt have had a very similar career to each of these QB's up to the point of them signing these contracts. These were all signed 3-4 years ago. They are not being overpaid, they will be getting what the market dictates.

[redmike34]

I think I am going to need a slide rule if I am going to keep up the monumental movement of the proverbial goal posts in this thread and this takes the cake ....

So what you're really saying (but now knowing it) that this is a matter of opinion and perspective. I see that now. But lets not then twist and mince words to fit YOUR opinion in this incredibly twisted narrative.

Every football person on the planet, who are far more versed in everything football, would look at that game and say Joe out played Brady. And after that game, his praise as such was universal. You do understand it's a generalized term, right?

It's only the vocal few here, under Herculean efforts, are so desperate to cling to their incredibly narrow narrative that they're resorting to misrepresenting history in a very feeble attempt to make a point.

.... and it should be noted I think Joe is average at best.

What is the rubric under which one can say that one QB outplayed his opposing QB, and yet his team still lost the game?

Is it if you finish with a better QB rating than your opponent? Is it if you get more TDs than your opponent? Is it if you throw fewer interceptions?

I don't understand the concept, and I don't understand why it matters either, in context of the overall result.

[wickedsolo]

Because red zone defense and turnover ratio is totally not important.

No, it is absolutely important. That's my point.

A few pages back some made the point that Joe struggles when defenses make the Ravens' offense 1 dimensional. I clearly pointed out that Joe played pretty damn well in the playoffs last year and both the Patriots and Texans made the Ravens 1 dimensional by taking away the run, which would undoubtedly point to the fact that Joe CAN play pretty damn well when Rice has nowhere to run. There is historical evidence backing that up. Can he struggle? Sure, but so can every other QB in the NFL.

Then, you were quick to point out that both of Flacco's TD's were a result of the Texans goofs. You - and others - were also quick to point out that the Patriots had a poor defense ranking that year. Then you admitted that the Patriots' front 7 was pretty good and that they played really well that game.

The point is, it is ALL important. You can't single out ONE specific incident and make a claim as if it is truth. It doesn't work that way. Football doesn't work that way.

[SHORTTRACK]

This thread has confirmed that the Flacco Apologists are indeed further in outer space than the Flacco Haters

[DonNMass]

This is one of the worst posts we've seen here....ever

#1) You don't think Flacco has improved? (rhetorical question I guess). Flacco in his first two years was largely a game manager who infrequently would make a game-changing play. He now is the type of QB who can single-handedly take over a football game when he's hot. Yes, consistency is still an issue (just like in his first few seasons), but the upside is much higher than before and I think you can argue the floor has become a lot higher as well. Look at his stat lines over his first 32 starts. You saw a lot of sub-200 yard, 0 TD games. We were okay with those efforts before, because the Ravens still won the game in the midst of those lackluster stat lines. You rarely see those type of games from him anymore. We, as fans, have clearly raised the bar for him. In the absence of a good defense this year, Flacco has to win games, not just manage them. When he fails, we chastise him. Yet, the fact that he is now frequently able to turn in the type of effort like he did on Sunday indicates his level of play has indeed improved. Joe Flacco circa 2008 or 2009 could not have done what he did against Cincy, NE, Oak, Was, or NYG this year. I would state that those who think Flacco hasn't improved are using a ridiculously upward moving scale in evaluating him.

2) "when the stars align, he can play great". First off, the stars must align quite often in your galaxy, because Flacco has had a lot of really good games over the last 30 starts. This isn't a case of the guy looking like Johnny Unitas once a year. He has these burst of brilliance far more regularly than you state. Secondly, in the midst of a lot of variables in his career, he's still produced at a perfectly good level and won a lot of football games. None of the TEs or WRs who he threw to in year #1 and #2 were around for year #4.

Also, this statement shows your lack of comprehension on how difficult the NFL is. Flacco is not Brady or Peyton or Brees. Nobody here thinks he is or expects him to be. Aside from that trio, every other QB in the league is going to suffer when variables change or are removed. That is a fact that people who follow the trends of teams league-wide have observed. Joe has had a patchwork, underperforming line in front of him this year. He rarely has time to set and throw and yet is having another solid season. When Jay Cutler or Eli Manning or Philip Rivers (all QBs viewed to be better than Joe by a lot of analysts) have struggles with their O-lines, they throw 15-20 INTs a season. Joe, despite his O-line struggles, has only 10 INTs this year. That should be no surprise, since Flacco, despite never missing an NFL start, has never thrown more than 12 in a season. Despite being inconsistent from start-to-start, Flacco is arguably the most consistent QB from an overall stats line in NFL history.

#3) When we wait for the other Joe to show up...is that Joe really all that awful? Again, here is where statistical facts come into play. Joe Flacco has gone 45 games without throwing more than two interceptions. During that 45 game stretch since he last threw 3, he has only had three instances where he even threw two INTs in a game. I think we need to take a step back and appreciate how impressive that is. Matt Ryan had a game this year where he threw 0TD-5INT. Eli Manning has numerous games where he is a turnover machine. We criticized Joe after his efforts against WAS and DEN even those two games he had 5TDs-2INTs and a passer rating a couple points shy of 100. I agree that he didn't play well, but if those two weeks were your example of his poor play, you need to find better examples to convince me, particularly in light of what a truly bad game is for other NFL QBs.

#4) What does Joe's draft position have to do with his level of criticism and expectation. Would we be reacting any differently to his performance this year if he was a 4th round pick? Would his interception against the Broncos be more excusable? That's a severely flawed logic. Late first round draft pick QBs are far from a sure thing and Flacco has vastly out-performed the expectations for even an early-to-mid first rounder, let alone a late first rounder (not that it's even relevant). You state as almost a matter of fact that first round draft pick QBs are assured of greatness, which is outright wrong. Flacco in year #4, with one dropped pass away from the Super Bowl, was IMO ahead of Matthew "king-of-the-meaningless stat" Stafford (a #1 overall pick) is this year in his 4th season. He's also on a much better arc than Sanchez, Freeman, and even Sam Bradford (another #1 overall pick). He also is probably on par with Matt Ryan, who was taken as the first QB in his own 2008 draft. Ryan has better numbers (against far worse defenses), but has been an outright AWFUL Qb when it counts in the playoffs. I might still give the edge to Flacco in that comparison. If you think a QB should enter the NFL in the late first round and have the expectation for them to have the success that Flacco has, you are truly uneducated on the history of the game of football. Even when Joe has a bad game or bad moment, he still has done some pretty remarkable things in his first 5 NFL seasons....some of which may never be done again....ever.

Wow Dude,i feel like a dentist with that pick that hit a nerve! Worst post ever? C'mon, the truth really must hurt. All over expecting a #1 pick to play like #1 pick? Really.

Way too many words to even read.

All I want is for the Ravens #1 pick not to lose games, (which he has with red zone picks, fumbles, deer in the headlight look, duh! ) Hell, I don't even wont him to win games, just don't keep losing them by throwing the game away.

[PerpetuallyBored74]

I think Jah Reid has played decently at LG since taking over that spot about a month ago. He's not Grubbs quality, but he's not a mammoth liability like Bobbie Williams has been all year.

You know, you're right.
For a tackle playing guard, he hasn't been too bad, a solid C- overall
Here's how FilmStudy (Ken McKusick) has graded him from week to week:

Raiders -- 47 snaps, 43 blocks, 2 missed, 1 pressure, 1 QH, 1 illegal use of hands, 32 points (.68 per play)

1st Steelers -- 56 plays, 45 blocks, 2 missed, 0 penetrations, 1 + 1/3 QH, 1 false start, 45 points (.80 per play)

Chargers -- 78 blocks, 3 missed, 1 penetration, 1 + 0.25 pressures, 1/2 QH, 1/3 sack, 1 false start, 65 points (.74 per play)

2nd Steelers -- 51 blocks, 3 missed, 1.5 penetrations, 1 pressure, 46 points (.81 per play)

Redskins -- 51 blocks, 5 missed, 1 penetration, 1 false start, 46 points (.81 per play)

Broncos -- 54 blocks, 5 missed, 1 pressure, 1/3 sack, 50 points (.82 per play)

Giants -- 77 plays, 67 blocks, 7 missed, 1 penetration, 1 pressure, 1 QH, 2/3 chop block, 54 points (.70 per play)

He hasn't been spectacular, but he has been consistent.
Alright, so maybe we might have just enough at O-line to pull off a Super Bowl victory. Hey, if the Steelers could do it in 2008 and the Giants last season with their lines as bad as they were...

[leachisabeast]

No, it is absolutely important. That's my point.

A few pages back some made the point that Joe struggles when defenses make the Ravens' offense 1 dimensional. I clearly pointed out that Joe played pretty damn well in the playoffs last year and both the Patriots and Texans made the Ravens 1 dimensional by taking away the run, which would undoubtedly point to the fact that Joe CAN play pretty damn well when Rice has nowhere to run. There is historical evidence backing that up. Can he struggle? Sure, but so can every other QB in the NFL.

Then, you were quick to point out that both of Flacco's TD's were a result of the Texans goofs. You - and others - were also quick to point out that the Patriots had a poor defense ranking that year. Then you admitted that the Patriots' front 7 was pretty good and that they played really well that game.

The point is, it is ALL important. You can't single out ONE specific incident and make a claim as if it is truth. It doesn't work that way. Football doesn't work that way.

I agree with this.

I think what Dirt said was correct, but what people forget is that I said that Tom Brady struggles a lot of the time too when the ground game isn't working. I bet Brady would have loved to have Stevan Ridley of this year in that SB game against the Giants.

Point is, most QB's struggle to win games or play well without an effective ground game. And that doesn't mean rushing for 200 yards every game, you can have games like the Bengals in week 1 when we were rushing for like 5.5 yards a carry, but Rice only had 66 rushing yards, yards doesn't matter all that much when you think of it though.

[leachisabeast]

Yeah Jah Reid deserves more credit than what he gets around here. The dude has never played guard in his life, let alone the NFL, and after only a handful of starts, he's holding up pretty well making a mistake or two here and there. Some people are making him out to be a bust already, I mean wtf lol. I actually think he could be going into next season as the long term starter at LG if he continues to learn the position and improve, which he has.

[ActualSpamBot]

All I want is for the Ravens #1 pick not to lose games, (which he has with red zone picks, fumbles, deer in the headlight look, duh! ) Hell, I don't even wont him to win games, just don't keep losing them by throwing the game away.

Wow... Just... I don't think humans have invented the language that can express how mind blowingly, fundamentally, inexcusably terrible this post is.

I just... Words fail me.

Leach, care to defend this gem from someone who clearly agrees with you?

[DonNMass]

Wow... Just... I don't think humans have invented the language that can express how mind blowingly, fundamentally, inexcusably terrible this post is.

I just... Words fail me.

Leach, care to defend this gem from someone who clearly agrees with you?

Please explain, Denver, DC, and of course Pitt is waiting to hear why fumbles, stripped balls and picks didn't contribute to their winning.

I'm so wrong, go back and read those game threads right here on this forum and Flacco is never blamed, right?