Joe 'Manned Up'

[rlh445]

Wow Dude,i feel like a dentist with that pick that hit a nerve! Worst post ever? C'mon, the truth really must hurt. All over expecting a #1 pick to play like #1 pick? Really.

Way too many words to even read.

All I want is for the Ravens #1 pick not to lose games, (which he has with red zone picks, fumbles, deer in the headlight look, duh! ) Hell, I don't even wont him to win games, just don't keep losing them by throwing the game away.

I uh, I uh...I don't know about this one guys, maybe we should throw him back in the water. Don, you remind me of a guy I work with. He always used that wonderful, 'deer in the headlights' phrase and even chided Flacco for having the gall to throw away a pass instead of 'taking the sack like a man'. What a moron. The both of you. How many games has Flacco actually, 'thrown away'? Gimme a break. Jesus Christ, the mental midgets on this board make me want to hunt the lot of you down, get you in a room and let you scratch each others' eyes out with a spoon. Because it hurts more, you twits.

[PerpetuallyBored74]

Different defenses.

You're right.
The Pats' defense was different from the Ravens' D.

The Pats D had Wilfork living in the Ravens backfield all game.
The Ravens D did not have Ngata living in the Pats backfield all game.

The Ravens D produced 3 turnovers.
The Pats D produced only 1.

The Pats D made the game saving pass defense.
The Ravens D never got that chance, thanks to Evans and Cundiff.

Btw, for those who think Flacco didn't outplay Brady:

          Comp.  Att.   Yards    TDs     INTs
Brady :    22     36     239      0       2     (Brady did have 1 rushing TD)
Flacco :   22     36     306      2       1

[rlh445]

Please explain, Denver, DC, and of course Pitt is waiting to hear why fumbles, stripped balls and picks didn't contribute to their winning.

I'm so wrong, go back and read those game threads right here on this forum and Flacco is never blamed, right?

Flacco is ALWAYS BLAMED. Even when HE never fucks up, if we lose, it's on Flacco. That's okay, he's the QB, that's part of the job description. When he DOES do the right thing, he STILL gets blamed. The guy can't win.

What a concept, you mean turnovers help contribute to wins and losses?! Well my STARS! Too bad Flacco isn't the only QB in the game who throws picks and fumbles, otherwise you might not sound like you've recently had a lobotomy.

[ActualSpamBot]

Please explain, Denver, DC, and of course Pitt is waiting to hear why fumbles, stripped balls and picks didn't contribute to their winning.

Yea... DC wherein the defense surrendered an 8 point lead in the final minute after Flacco threw three TDs. Yea, that's all on Joe though.

Tell you what, I'll blame Joe for Denver and Pitt, now you explain how he doesn't deserve credit for 54 wins in 79 games.

[rlh445]

Yea... DC wherein the defense surrendered an 8 point lead in the final minute after Flacco threw three TDs. Yea, that's all on Joe though.

Tell you what, I'll blame Joe for Denver and Pitt, now you explain how he doesn't deserve credit for 54 wins in 79 games.

Duh, that was all Ray Rice and our defense that gave us those wins. Joe just kinda stood there like a deer in the headlights and went through the motions. Did he even throw any TDs in those wins? Probably not.

[DonNMass]

I uh, I uh...I don't know about this one guys, maybe we should throw him back in the water. Don, you remind me of a guy I work with. He always used that wonderful, 'deer in the headlights' phrase and even chided Flacco for having the gall to throw away a pass instead of 'taking the sack like a man'. What a moron. The both of you. How many games has Flacco actually, 'thrown away'? Gimme a break. Jesus Christ, the mental midgets on this board make me want to hunt the lot of you down, get you in a room and let you scratch each others' eyes out with a spoon. Because it hurts more, you twits.

I wish he had thrown a few more away.

So bash me, but deny you don't have that pit in your gut waiting to see what Flacco will show up in the playoffs.

[redmike34]

Btw, for those who think Flacco didn't outplay Brady:

          Comp.  Att.   Yards    TDs     INTs
Brady :    22     36     239      0       2     (Brady did have 1 rushing TD)
Flacco :   22     36     306      2       1

Okay, so let me get this straight. I bust on Flacco's inability to post consistent passer ratings, to which the response from the apologists is always something along the lines of "who cares, Flacco just wins games!" Now I'm shown a statline in which he clearly outplayed his opponent in terms of passer rating, but lost the game, and now I'm supposed to accept the argument that passer rating actually does matter?

And y'all think I'm the one that doesn't make consistent arguments...

Again, someone please explain to me what the metric is for a QB outplaying his opponent while losing the game.

[DonNMass]

Yea... DC wherein the defense surrendered an 8 point lead in the final minute after Flacco threw three TDs. Yea, that's all on Joe though.

Tell you what, I'll blame Joe for Denver and Pitt, now you explain how he doesn't deserve credit for 54 wins in 79 games.

Chuch Pagano, Ray Lewis, Ray Rice,Willis MaGahee, Rex Ryan, Q, Suggs,....should I go on?

[ActualSpamBot]

Chuch Pagano, Ray Lewis, Ray Rice,Willis MaGahee, Rex Ryan, Q, Suggs,....should I go on?

In other words, literally everyone but Joe.

Got it.

Leach, Haloti92, et al.... This is the tripe we're talking about. This is who we are talking about when we say that there are some posters who will literally give credit to everyone but Joe up to and including WILLIS MOTHER FUCKING MCGAHEE ARE YOU SHITTING ME?!?

Jesus... I feel dumber just for having read it.

[DonNMass]

In other words, literally everyone but Joe.

Got it.

Leach, Haloti92, et al.... This is the tripe we're talking about. This is who we are talking about when we say that there are some posters who will literally



give credit to everyone but Joe up to and including WILLIS MOTHER FUCKING MCGAHEE ARE YOU SHITTING ME?!?

Jesus... I feel dumber just for having read it.

Please don't feel dumb for reading this post. But, if you're reading your prior posts then, well,.....

[NCRAVEN]

In other words, literally everyone but Joe.

Got it.

Leach, Haloti92, et al.... This is the tripe we're talking about. This is who we are talking about when we say that there are some posters who will literally give credit to everyone but Joe up to and including WILLIS MOTHER FUCKING MCGAHEE ARE YOU SHITTING ME?!?

Jesus... I feel dumber just for having read it.

This shit goes back to the first and second page. You had guys literally arguing the exact opposite. Team wins, but Joe losses.

Some folks are just ridiculous in whatever bias they may have, don't let it get to ya.

[festivus]

In other words, literally everyone but Joe.

Got it.

Leach, Haloti92, et al.... This is the tripe we're talking about. This is who we are talking about when we say that there are some posters who will literally give credit to everyone but Joe up to and including WILLIS MOTHER FUCKING MCGAHEE ARE YOU SHITTING ME?!?

Jesus... I feel dumber just for having read it.

Don't you have an ignore list? WTF are you doing, engaging in this argument?

/sheesh

[DonNMass]

In other words, literally everyone but Joe.

Got it.

Leach, Haloti92, et al.... This is the tripe we're talking about. This is who we are talking about when we say that there are some posters who will literally

give credit to everyone but Joe up to and including WILLIS MOTHER FUCKING MCGAHEE ARE YOU SHITTING ME?!?

Jesus... I feel dumber just for having read it.

Seriously ASB, I give Joe all of the credit deserved when deserved. The Ravens are lucky to have him when he's on, and no one is better when he's on. But what do the Ravens do when he's not? And we've all seen him when he's not.
PS, the Willis Magahee props goes back to that long run with a stiff arm, forgot who agaisnt, but it was a thing a beauty I'll always remember.

[NCRAVEN]

PS, the Willis Magahee props goes back to that long run with a stiff arm, forgot who agaisnt, but it was a thing a beauty I'll always remember.

[DonNMass]

Thanks!!!!!!

[Haloti92]

In other words, literally everyone but Joe.

Got it.

Leach, Haloti92, et al.... This is the tripe we're talking about. This is who we are talking about when we say that there are some posters who will literally give credit to everyone but Joe up to and including WILLIS MOTHER FUCKING MCGAHEE ARE YOU SHITTING ME?!?

Jesus... I feel dumber just for having read it.

I don't think he is giving credit "to everyone but Joe." He seems to be mentioning simply that we have had some good players on the team who contributed greatly to the wins. These discussions are ALWAYS about how much Joe contributes, not whether or not he contributes, when we are talking about the wins.

That exchange started when you brought up the Ravens record and asked whether Joe deserved "credit" for them. That question can be interpreted many ways. Any credit? Some credit? All credit? etc. I seriously doubt DonMass would argue Joe has not had any good games in those 54 wins where one would give the lion's share of "credit" for the win to Joe. The issue is not about whether Joe has contributed to wins, because every non-winless QB has contributed something to some win. The issue is how much he has contributed to those 54 wins. That is ALWAYS the question. Some people think random, average, NFL QB XYZ would have won 50 games vs 54 had they been here for that time. Some others think 34 vs 54.

No one can "win" the argument, but too often people use fallacies while trying to support their point. One is pretending that a person who argues that others contributed to the wins means the person is arguing that Joe contributed nothing to the wins. The floor is not "nothing," the floor is better described as "nothing special," even if that is also subjective and open to debate.

And I could easily put up examples of my mirror image response if we are going to misconstrue people's arguments. I can find plenty of examples where people appear to argue that Joe's poor statistical performances can be fully explained by: dropped passes, poor protection, terrible OC, etc, without ever listing Joe as responsible in any way (similar to Don's list above). These responses usually come on the heels of someone else claiming Joe deserves blame for a loss (similar to your claim that Joe deserves "credit" for the wins).

In short, I don't think Don is saying what you are implying he is saying when he posts that list/response to your statement.

[PerpetuallyBored74]

Again, someone please explain to me what the metric is for a QB outplaying his opponent while losing the game.

It's both.

Wins AND stats.

So, if a QB is lacking in one or the other, then you analyze why.

With Flacco, he has the wins, but his stats have been 'meh'

And the consensus by the majority of Ravens fans and media experts (the experts who actually do know about QBs) is that Flacco's stats have been mediocre because of:

1) Cam Cameron/scheme/play-calling/lack of timely proper adjustments/etc.
2) The O-Line when the starters get hurt (which unfortunately has happened 3 seasons now)
3) Flacco and the receivers both not being consistent enough (basically a tie here)

In that order.
So, the consensus among us "Flacco lovers" has been, get rid of Cam (done...YES!) and add more/better depth to the O-line...because Mark LeVoir, Bryan Mattison, Oneil Freakin' Cousins, and ready-to-retire Andre Gurode & Bobby Williams, ain't going to get the job done--they're not even replacement level backups.

And then we can all finally make a more accurate assessment of both Joe and the receiving corps.

[DonNMass]

Thank you. Well said.
I like Joe Flacco, however his mistakes have led to measurable consequences.
Winning and losing are team efforts; I never said otherwise. Joe has turned the ball over, especially in momentum changing situations, when all he had to do was nothing other than not make a mistake, Denver on the 4 yard line a perfect example.

[redmike34]

It's both.

Wins AND stats.

So, if a QB is lacking in one or the other, then you analyze why.

With Flacco, he has the wins, but his stats have been 'meh'

And the consensus by the majority of Ravens fans and media experts (the experts who actually do know about QBs) is that Flacco's stats have been mediocre because of:

1) Cam Cameron/scheme/play-calling/lack of timely proper adjustments/etc.
2) The O-Line when the starters get hurt (which unfortunately has happened 3 seasons now)
3) Flacco and the receivers both not being consistent enough (basically a tie here)

In that order.
So, the consensus among us "Flacco lovers" has been, get rid of Cam (done...YES!) and add more/better depth to the O-line...because Mark LeVoir, Bryan Mattison, Oneil Freakin' Cousins, and ready-to-retire Andre Gurode & Bobby Williams, ain't going to get the job done--they're not even replacement level backups.

And then we can all finally make a more accurate assessment of both Joe and the receiving corps.

That doesn't really answer my question, which was, for an individual game, how do you quantify how a losing QB outplayed the winning one in defeat? Because that's at the root of what I believe is the incorrect belief that Flacco outplayed Brady in the AFCCG.

For the rest... okay. You well may be correct. We'll probably see starting next year. For the sake of the Ravens, and their chances to keep up winning ways and playoff runs, I sincerely hope that I'm wrong and that you (and the other "lovers") are right.

[ActualSpamBot]

Thank you. Well said.
I like Joe Flacco, however his mistakes have led to measurable consequences.
Winning and losing are team efforts; I never said otherwise. Joe has turned the ball over, especially in momentum changing situations, when all he had to do was nothing other than not make a mistake, Denver on the 4 yard line a perfect example.

In his career Joe has never had a season with more than 12 picks, to claim that "Joe has turned the ball over" as if he's doing it at a rate that meets or even exceeds the average, is simply wrong.

Joe has 109 TDs, 56 picks, and 18 lost fumbles. Meaning he has 1.45 scores for every turnover.

Matt Ryan has 131 TDs, plus 80 picks, and 11 lost fumbles. 1.43 scores per turnover.

Ben Roethlisberger has 202 TDs, plus 108 picks, and 29 lost fumbles. 1.47 scores per turnover.

If you think Joe is turning the ball over more than other QBs, you're wrong. If you think he's scoring less points per turnover, you're wrong. If you think he's winning fewer games, you're wrong.

Basically everything you've said about Joe has been inaccurate, or grossly exaggerated.