JJ or PK?

**KbubbaK** · 12-26-2012, 09:25 PM

Who would you rather have this year? Johnson or Kruger? I know what the answer would have been after the first few games but on the season as a whole, who?

**bmorecareful** · 12-26-2012, 09:33 PM

Knowing how badly we've struggled to rush the passer this year on the whole, the answer is clearly Kruger. We haven't really struggled to set the edge this year no matter who was in at OLB, although Upshaw is particularly adept in that respect. Everybody but Kruger OTOH has been inconsistent at best in pass rush.

Kruger is at this point unquestionably our best pass rusher and one of our best defensive players. He's earned himself a lot of money this year, and it will be depressing to watch him probably leave this offseason to chase big bucks.

**JohnBKistler** · 12-27-2012, 07:46 AM

If the Ravens didn't have to deal with the salary cap implications of signing a veteran player to a multi-year contract, it would have been JJ.

There was no sense in giving him that type of deal with Kruger waiting in the wings.

**GOTA** · 12-27-2012, 07:57 AM

For this year it would be JJ. For the long term if the money was equal I'd go with Kruger.

**houstonravensfan** · 12-27-2012, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by JohnBKistler

If the Ravens didn't have to deal with the salary cap implications of signing a veteran player to a multi-year contract, it would have been JJ.

There was no sense in giving him that type of deal with Kruger waiting in the wings.

Agree with the above, but you raise a good point: who is "waiting in the wings" behind Kruger? Ideas anyone?

**PerpetuallyBored74** · 12-27-2012, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by houstonravensfan

Agree with the above, but you raise a good point: who is "waiting in the wings" behind Kruger? Ideas anyone?

Upshaw, Hamilton, McAdoo.
In that order.

We also might draft/sign somebody though with our cap being tight, if we sign someone, they're going to come real cheap.

**NCRAVEN** · 12-27-2012, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by PerpetuallyBored74

Upshaw, Hamilton, McAdoo.
In that order.

We also might draft/sign somebody though with our cap being tight, if we sign someone, they're going to come real cheap.

I like the kid from UCLA, Barr (I think) might be a bit of a reach in the late first but not much. Hopefully we find a way to pay Kruger (can't believe I just said that).

**Ravens44** · 12-27-2012, 10:10 AM

I actually think the biggest problem started in the trenches.
Losing Cory Redding, to me, hurt our defense tremendously.
We are just now finding a way to really fill that spot.
But I believe that was a big part of the defense not being able to stop the run.
With Redding and Ngata, that left whoever played nose/DT, to usually just hold their ground against one blocker.
Well, Redding left, no one stepped up and JJ was not behind him.
But, as we saw, if teams double on Ngata and were able to single up on the other Dlinemen, and not just block, but actually push them back INTO the linebackers...then it doesn't matter who is playing linebacker.
You can't make a tackle if you own 340+ teammate is backing into you followed by another 310+ pound body pushing him, and a free offensive lineman coming at you and maybe a fullback and then the ballcarrier. Forget about it.

Because our Dline is playing better, our outside backers ARE able to do their job better which is set the edge...and then get after the quarterback. It has been a season long adjustment of personnel and coaching.
I am really happy with the play of Upshaw. He seems to learn and get better every week.
And he tackles with authority. At times, he has simply knocked/lifted runners off their feet, especially pursuing down the line of scrimmage after taking care of his responsibility. I still believe he is in that Woodley mold and he still has alot of upside.

**wickedsolo** · 12-27-2012, 10:47 AM

I think they moved on from JJ at the right time. He hasn't been able to do much of anything in San Diego. Wouldn't be surprised to see JJ on the open market again after this year.

**leachisabeast** · 12-27-2012, 11:09 AM

JJ hasn't done much in SD this year, while Kruger is the teams leader in sacks. This is not a debate IMO, I'd take Kruger over JJ any day this year. Our run defense off the edges haven't been the issue, it's been through the middle because our nose tackles are terrible this year.

Kruger hasn't been great as a run defender, but as everyone is always harping on about, it's a passing league now, pass rushers are at a premium and certainly valued more than run defending specialists.

Had Suggs been healthy this year and played even close to what he did last year, Kruger may have had even more sacks, possibly in the 10-12 range, and probably would have looked like a pro bowl level player.

**Boulderraven** · 12-27-2012, 11:26 AM

JJ had to go, he was too old and had frequent shoulder problems and SD paid way to much for him. Kruger is faster, stronger and has more upside. What hurt the Ravens DLine was the nagging injuries to Ngata and McPhee then not having a 100% Suggs doesnt help. Cody is a bust and Kemo is bad. Line has been better since Jones is getting more reps. Dline if they keep Kruger will be good. To bad McBean got hurt, would have been nice to see what he could of done. Tyson hasnt looked that bad. But Cody and Kemo really stink it up.

**Boulderraven** · 12-27-2012, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Boulderraven

JJ had to go, he was too old and had frequent shoulder problems and SD paid way to much for him. Kruger is faster, stronger and has more upside. What hurt the Ravens DLine was the nagging injuries to Ngata and McPhee then not having a 100% Suggs doesnt help. Cody is a bust and Kemo is bad. Line has been better since Jones is getting more reps. Dline if they keep Kruger will be good. To bad McBean got hurt, would have been nice to see what he could of done. Tyson hasnt looked that bad. But Cody and Kemo really stink it up.

Upshaw is really JJ's replacement, has shown flashes and looks to be a solid player in the future. Not an a pass rusher but solid and pretty high football IQ. Upshaw had a injury this year that slowed his learning curve a bit.

**JoeCool5** · 12-27-2012, 11:30 AM

Kruger. He might be pricing himself out of town, but we have some young guys "in the wings" like McAdoo and Hamilton. I know the team is very high on them. Kruger has had a nice season, but remember that Ellerbe is also a free agent at the end of the year. I think, considering we have some young OLBs, I would rather us re-sign Ellerbe if they had to choose between him and Kruger. Ellerbe is really starting to blossom and would fill a huge need in the future. He shows a nice abililty to rush the QB from the inside, a trait that is rare for an ILB.

**Boulderraven** · 12-27-2012, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by JoeCool5

Kruger. He might be pricing himself out of town, but we have some young guys "in the wings" like McAdoo and Hamilton. I know the team is very high on them. Kruger has had a nice season, but remember that Ellerbe is also a free agent at the end of the year. I think, considering we have some young OLBs, I would rather us re-sign Ellerbe if they had to choose between him and Kruger. Ellerbe is really starting to blossom and would fill a huge need in the future. He shows a nice abililty to rush the QB from the inside, a trait that is rare for an ILB.

You crazy? ILB pass rushers is largely due to scheme. Kruger is an edge rusher, pay him. Ellerbe I dont trust for shit, he might show up as fat as he was last year. Ellerbe gets hurt often, Kruger never gets hurt.

**esmd** · 12-27-2012, 01:18 PM

I love JJ, but his best days are behind him, IMO. Kruger has had a decent year. Next year the starting OLB's will be Suggs and Upshaw, IMO. Kruger will get $$$ from someone. Ellerbe and McClain will be the starting ILB's. Ngata, Jones, and McPhee will be the starting lineman. This all assumes no injuries and doesn't account for draft picks / FA's. But I think we'll see significant turnover next season.

**JoeCool5** · 12-27-2012, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by Boulderraven

You crazy? ILB pass rushers is largely due to scheme. Kruger is an edge rusher, pay him. Ellerbe I dont trust for shit, he might show up as fat as he was last year. Ellerbe gets hurt often, Kruger never gets hurt.

No craziness here. I acknowledge Kruger has had a good season, but he isn't irreplaceable. He is pricing himself out of Baltimore, anyway. Your concerns for Ellerbe stem from his previous immaturity issues, which, by his play alone this year, seem like they are gone.

**bmorecareful** · 12-27-2012, 03:28 PM

The Ravens definitely need to re-sign Ellerbe because he has the potential to be an every-down ILB, and he's the only every-down ILB we have on the team. He makes our run defense much better, plays acceptably well in coverage, and rushes the passer very well. He's a priority this offseason.

This team has a short and long-term need at DE/OLB. They should try to re-sign Kruger, but it might be hard because the kid is going to want (and frankly he deserves) full-time starter money, which the team might not want to pay. Upshaw is entrenched at least as the run-defense option at one DE/OLB spot. Suggs is at the other, and he's a bit of a quandary. He may never be 100% again after this year and his body has a ton of wear for a 30 year old player. I don't think he has 3 years left as a high-caliber player, honestly, and that's fairly convenient because he has 2 years left on his contract.

If Kruger stays, he should be the #3 DE/OLB and play as much as possible in relief of Upshaw and/or Suggs, particularly in nickel situations. Long-term he could potentially replace Suggs, but he'll be 29 by that time. If Kruger walks, I think this team needs to draft a high-upside DE/OLB prospect who could be a nickel-rusher early on and eventually replace Suggs. Maybe Hamilton or McAdoo could be that guy, but they're certainly not confidence-inspiring and this team has depended on UDFAs too much anyway.

**PerpetuallyBored74** · 12-27-2012, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by Ravens44

I actually think the biggest problem started in the trenches.
Losing Cory Redding, to me, hurt our defense tremendously.

Losing Cory Redding & Brandon McKinney, then having Ryan McBean go down in preseason...just like that we were thin at DT before the season had begun.

And it's Kruger over JJ, no question.

**JustaslowZ06** · 12-27-2012, 03:41 PM

If you're talking strictly from a football standpoint and not factoring in money or anything than I'd say JJ. I don't think Kruger has done anything that Hamilton or someone else couldn't do and he's a one trick pony. he either gets there or isnt even close. At least with JJ he's in on every tackle to his side and most to the other side aswell.

Now all that being said I'm pretty happy with how Upshaw has played and wile I don't think he'll get to that elite status that everyone talks about him he'll be another big piece to this defense. Let Hamilton play 3rd down rush the passer specialist. OLB isn't our problem, ILB and NT and DE are. Alot less holes to fill if we'd switch to the 4-3 as the "primary".

**leachisabeast** · 12-27-2012, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by JustaslowZ06

If you're talking strictly from a football standpoint and not factoring in money or anything than I'd say JJ. I don't think Kruger has done anything that Hamilton or someone else couldn't do and he's a one trick pony. he either gets there or isnt even close. At least with JJ he's in on every tackle to his side and most to the other side aswell.

Now all that being said I'm pretty happy with how Upshaw has played and wile I don't think he'll get to that elite status that everyone talks about him he'll be another big piece to this defense. Let Hamilton play 3rd down rush the passer specialist. OLB isn't our problem, ILB and NT and DE are. Alot less holes to fill if we'd switch to the 4-3 as the "primary".

Truth is none of us know anything about Adrian Hamilton, he dominated a really low level of college football talent. While Kruger has 9 sacks in the NFL, huge difference IMO.