NCAA Responds to Penn. Governor's Lawsuit

[Sirdowski]

Maybe I am just playing devils advocate a bit but those trying to lay a good portion of the blame at Paterno are misguided. And what I mean is, saying that Paterno should have known and done more is part of the reason the football program got such heavy sanctions.

The NCAA's actions are the same thing as giving credence to the "corporations are people" argument.

[darb72]

Paterno not going to the cops IS part of the reason for the NCAA sanctions. The fact he helped cover up a crime committed on PSU's campus, with the help of multiple higher ranking school officials, shows a lack of institutional control.

PSU covered up a crime to protect its football team. There's no denying that. The NCAA handed down punishment because the crime(s):
A) Involved members of PSU's coaching staff
B) Occurred in the football team's building
C) Was covered up to protect the image of the football team

This was not an emotional decision by the NCAA. They could very well have handed PSU the death penalty but didn't.

[Sirdowski]

Paterno not going to the cops IS part of the reason for the NCAA sanctions. The fact he helped cover up a crime committed on PSU's campus, with the help of multiple higher ranking school officials, shows a lack of institutional control.

PSU covered up a crime to protect its football team. There's no denying that. The NCAA handed down punishment because the crime(s):
A) Involved members of PSU's coaching staff
B) Occurred in the football team's building
C) Was covered up to protect the image of the football team

This was not an emotional decision by the NCAA. They could very well have handed PSU the death penalty but didn't.

PSU didn't cover up anything. PSU isn't a person it is tens of thousands of people. A few individuals had tragic lapses in judgment, how is the logical conclusion from this that the university has a lack of institutional control? Actually, say Jopa and Co. went to authorities right away, how would that be a reflection of not a lack of institutional control?

[HoustonRaven]

PSU didn't cover up anything. PSU isn't a person it is tens of thousands of people. A few individuals had tragic lapses in judgment, how is the logical conclusion from this that the university has a lack of institutional control? Actually, say Jopa and Co. went to authorities right away, how would that be a reflection of not a lack of institutional control?

Isn't that like saying BP wasn't responsible for the oil spill? After all, BP isn't a person. BP is tens of thousands of people.

And I think you're kidding yourself if you really think there was no cover up. It's all in the emails.

[Sirdowski]

Isn't that like saying BP wasn't responsible for the oil spill? After all, BP isn't a person. BP is tens of thousands of people.

When you say BP is responsible, are you saying everyone under the BP umbrella is responsible? Of course not. For a news headline, sure, but in the case of PSU where we have names responsible casting blanket statements is lazy and unfair.

In no way am I saying there wasn't a cover up, but you can't simply say "Penn State covered up the scandal", it's meaningless.

[darb72]

When you say BP is responsible, are you saying everyone under the BP umbrella is responsible? Of course not. For a news headline, sure, but in the case of PSU where we have names responsible casting blanket statements is lazy and unfair.

In no way am I saying there wasn't a cover up, but you can't simply say "Penn State covered up the scandal", it's meaningless.

Yes, I can say that PSU covered it up. The head coach, the athletic director and the PRESIDENT OF THE UNIVERSITY were forced to resign after the findings of the Grand Jury. That's the three most powerful men on a college campus. Hell, not only did they cover it up but they let the sick bastard maintain an office on campus after, I repeat AFTER, the original allegations.

When Miami was under investigation because of Shapiro (spelling) it was the University that was blamed for lack of institutional control. When the NCAA handed SMU the death penalty, it was for a lack of institutional control. I'm not sure about anybody else, but if there's a pedophile running around raping little boys in the locker room that sure hints at a glaring lack of institutional control.

This is an opinion board, Sirdowski, so I don't say this lightly, but you're wrong. Sandusky was paid by PSU. Sandusky was allowed to maintain an office at PSU after he retired. Three people have been brought up on charges for their role in the cover-up. These are the actions of a University that put football above the safety of children.

You say we have names of the people responsible, and you're right. Joe Paterno, head coach of the Penn State football team, covered up the sexual abuse of children. Graham Spanier, President of Penn State University, covered up the sexual abuse of children. Gary Schultz, Vice-President of Penn State University, covered up the sexual abuse of children. Timothy Curley, the Athletic Director for Penn State University, covered up the sexual abuse of children. These people are not secretaries, or custodians. They were the leaders of Penn State. They were the face of Penn State. They made the decisions for Penn State.

So yeah, I feel pretty comfortable saying Penn State covered up decades of sexual abuse.

[Sirdowski]

if there's a pedophile running around raping little boys in the locker room that sure hints at a glaring lack of institutional control.,

This is absolutely wrong. Sandusky was a grade 'A' sociopath. A masterfully insidious man who fooled everyone. Hiring a sociopath is a hint at a lack of institutional control? Absurd.

This is an opinion board, Sirdowski, so I don't say this lightly, but you're wrong. Sandusky was paid by PSU. Sandusky was allowed to maintain an office at PSU after he retired. Three people have been brought up on charges for their role in the cover-up. These are the actions of a University that put football above the safety of children.

So again, merely unknowingly hiring a sociopath is an indictment on the university?

The guilty men involved deserve everything they get.

They were the leaders of Penn State. They were the face of Penn State. They made the decisions for Penn State.

And they should be tried accordingly, and are.

So yeah, I feel pretty comfortable saying Penn State covered up decades of sexual abuse.

Comfortable in the intellectually lazy sort of way I imagine?

Picture a woman walking up to you sobbing, she tells you she is a higher up and integral leader at the school and she's devastated about what happened. You comfortably reply

"yeah, Penn State really screwed up"

with which she replies,
"Excuse me, I have been here since Mr. Paterno was a young man, I am just as much Penn State as anyone, and I did nothing wrong"

what are you going to say? Something even more arbitrary?

"Oh well, I mean, your part of Penn State, but those men were Penn State, they were in charge"

[HoustonRaven]

This is absolutely wrong. Sandusky was a grade 'A' sociopath. A masterfully insidious man who fooled everyone. Hiring a sociopath is a hint at a lack of institutional control? Absurd.

Yes, hiring a sociopath is most definitely NOT a lack of institutional control.

Keeping a known child rapist on the books, covering up his actions to protect the schools image and then quietly force him into the sunset via a pretty sweet parachute most certainly is.

Comfortable in the intellectually lazy sort of way I imagine?

Picture a woman walking up to you sobbing, she tells you she is a higher up and integral leader at the school and she's devastated about what happened. You comfortably reply

"yeah, Penn State really screwed up"

with which she replies,
"Excuse me, I have been here since Mr. Paterno was a young man, I am just as much Penn State as anyone, and I did nothing wrong"

what are you going to say? Something even more arbitrary?

"Oh well, I mean, your part of Penn State, but those men were Penn State, they were in charge"

I think you're projecting here.

The leaders of every orgainized endeavor have been blamed for things since time and memorial.

Sub commanders are responsible for the wrong doings of those under them.

Presidents take the blame for crappy conditions in the country.

CEO's are held accountable when companies get caught up in wrong doing.

At PSU, we have actual proof, thanks to email exchanges, they covered up a horrific crime. Here is where your anaology falls apart even further. The leaders of the institution were actual actors in the bad behavior. Yet, you some how now want to parse words to make some point about what you think is an over reaching NCAA?

I am not even sure what you're arguing anymore.

[NCRAVEN]

Yes, hiring a sociopath is most definitely NOT a lack of institutional control.

Keeping a known child rapist on the books, covering up his actions to protect the schools image and then quietly force him into the sunset via a pretty sweet parachute most certainly is.




I think you're projecting here.

The leaders of every orgainized endeavor have been blamed for things since time and memorial.

Sub commanders are responsible for the wrong doings of those under them.

Presidents take the blame for crappy conditions in the country.

CEO's are held accountable when companies get caught up in wrong doing.

At PSU, we have actual proof, thanks to email exchanges, they covered up a horrific crime. Here is where your anaology falls apart even further. The leaders of the institution were actual actors in the bad behavior. Yet, you some how now want to parse words to make some point about what you think is an over reaching NCAA?

I am not even sure what you're arguing anymore.

Do you have a link to the emails? All I can find is stories about what the emails say...

[Sirdowski]

I think you're projecting here.

I know that's your go-to, but it really is insulting.

The leaders of every orgainized endeavor have been blamed for things since time and memorial.

Appeal to tradition? Your better than that.

I disagree with this idea that there was a lack of institutional control, which is the main reason for the sanctions. No amount of control could have prevented a handful of individuals and a sociopath from the conniving that took place. The only reason I was forced to get into the semantics over the use of "PSU", was the use of the over simplification "Penn state covered it up, therefore Penn state deserved the sanctions". This issue isn't a simple one-to-one correspondence.

The leaders of the institution were actual actors in the bad behavior.

And the guilty men will and have received their criminal punishment. I will never agree with the superficiality behind the retributive justice of the sanctions over the entire university.


It seems at this point it would be best to agree to disagree.

[Sirdowski]

Oh, and my user title says bloviating bloviator for a reason.

[HoustonRaven]

My apologies if you found my words insulting, Sir. Certainly wasn't my intent.

[wickedsolo]

This is absolutely wrong. Sandusky was a grade 'A' sociopath. A masterfully insidious man who fooled everyone. Hiring a sociopath is a hint at a lack of institutional control? Absurd.

No.

However, not "dealing" with said sociopath in a responsible and ethical manner does point to a lack of institutional control simply because the men who had the power (AD, JoePa, and the PSU President...and likely others...) didn't do anything about it.

It isn't the student body's fault. It isn't the player's fault.

However, the "Penn State Brand" is tainted because the men with final say on things of this nature didn't want to have a final say.

[Sirdowski]

My apologies if you found my words insulting, Sir. Certainly wasn't my intent.

It's all good. I understand where you were coming from. It was a solid jab, I don't mind as long as they aren't cheap shots.

[Sirdowski]

No.

However, not "dealing" with said sociopath in a responsible and ethical manner does point to a lack of institutional control simply because the men who had the power (AD, JoePa, and the PSU President...and likely others...) didn't do anything about it.

It isn't the student body's fault. It isn't the player's fault.

However, the "Penn State Brand" is tainted because the men with final say on things of this nature didn't want to have a final say.

The brand was tainted without NCAA intervention. The damage was done.


You guys I've really been mulling this over the past couple days. The biggest problem I have is the logic behind the NCAA saying they wanted to make an example of PSU, and that the sanctions were to discourage this kind of activity in the future. First, forget about the university, if the men of such low integrity are willing to assume the personal risk of criminal charges to cover this up, let alone the kind of weight on their conscience, why would they care about what happens to the university if they're found out? If they're going to take the risk, the number one factor is what could happen to themselves. Anything after that is irrelevant, criminal charges will preclude their careers at and involvement with PSU. Second, there's the logic that it's not about stopping low integrity men from their actions, it's about encouraging men of high integrity, or others in charge, to not allow something like this to take place. This to me is ridiculous. No amount of micromanagement could have prevented what happened. As disturbing as it sounds, Sandusky knew what he was doing. He knew when to pounce and when to wait so to not get caught, and the others were initially deceived, then didn't have the guts to admit they made a mistake and come forward. Thirdly, there's the logic that this is a reminder of what happens when you let the football culture get out of control. We all no football culture is out of control no matter what. It's our faults. We have made it so huge and so important that it has become essential not only to the university, but to the surrounding area of that state. That said, I do not see the necessary correlative here as out of control football culture.

Ironically, NCAA president, Mark Emmert as the then chancellor of LSU is quoted as saying,

"The critical role of our football program is clear: it is of vital importance to the entire community: our students, our fans, and alumni worldwide and the state of Louisiana. Simply put, success In LSU football is essential for the success of Louisiana State University."


In my opinion what happened was these men initially gave Sandusky the benefit of the doubt, and later as more incidents and information seemed to come up, out of their own self interest of being held responsible for the previous issues they ignored, panicked and ended up creating a monster. "Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practise to deceive" sums it up perfectly.

I understand entirely the reasons for the NCAA's sanctions, I just fundamentally disagree.

[darb72]

I'm going to put this as simply as possible.

Should USC be punished because Pete Carroll cheated?

[Sirdowski]

Not analogous. Take this however you'd like, but I'm not interested in looking up the details of another rabbit trail, I'm talking about Penn State.

[NCRAVEN]

I'm going to put this as simply as possible.

Should USC be punished because Pete Carroll cheated?

I'll answer this. No, the football program should, and was. Other sports programs should not suffer because he cheated.

[darb72]

Not analogous. Take this however you'd like, but I'm not interested in looking up the details of another rabbit trail, I'm talking about Penn State.

How in the hell is it not analogous? You're saying Penn State shouldn't be punished for the actions of their President, AD, Head Coach and VP. Yet through out the history of the NCAA schools are routinely punished for the actions of a few men.
Bama
Auburn
SMU
Miami
USC

Those are five right off the top of my head.

The sanctions imposed by the NCAA only affect the football team, not the entire University. 60 million in fines, equal to a year of football games. Loss of scholarships, four year bowl ban and five years probation. These sanctions are well within the NCAAs right and have been handed down to multiple teams over the years.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...ncaa-president

Here's a good quote.

Penn State announced Monday that it has accepted the NCAA sanctions.

"Today, Penn State takes another step forward in changing the culture at the institution as we accept the penalties of the NCAA for the failure of leadership that occurred on our campus," Penn State acting athletic director David Joyner said in the release. "We are deeply disappointed that some of our leaders could have turned a blind eye to such abuse, and agree that the culture at Penn State must change."

Notice how Joyner says PENN STATE takes a step forward. PENN STATE culture must change.

Penn State very well could have received the death penalty, and a lot of people thought that's what should've happened. The NCAA didn't because "Suspension of the football program would bring with it significant unintended harm to many who have nothing to do with this case. The sanctions we have crafted are more focused and impactful than that blanket penalty."

NCRAVEN:

The Penn State's football program is the only program in the University that is being punished. The 60 million dollar fine is to be paid over five years, and must come from the football team's money.

[Sirdowski]

How in the hell is it not analogous? You're saying Penn State shouldn't be punished for the actions of their President, AD, Head Coach and VP. Yet through out the history of the NCAA schools are routinely punished for the actions of a few men.
Bama
Auburn
SMU
Miami
USC

Those are five right off the top of my head.,

Your right. They are analogous, it was a poor word choice on my part. However, your making them out to be equivalent, which they are not. In some cases I may feel differently, in some similarly, it depends on the details of each case. I'm interested in the details, my issue is with the details. I'm not going to pretend I can make a valid judgment of each case without looking into them, something I am not interested in doing. In my last post I addressed my issues with the sanctions, if you want to explain why you have issues with them as they relate to PSU, by all means.

These sanctions are well within the NCAAs right and have been handed down to multiple teams over the years.

Since HR set me straight on this in the beginning of this thread I have not denied it was their right to act. However, Just because it was their right does not make it right.

Here's a good quote....

Notice how Joyner says PENN STATE takes a step forward. PENN STATE culture must change.

So what? I disagree with him.

Penn State very well could have received the death penalty, and a lot of people thought that's what should've happened.

This one's a hybrid logical fallacy: Relative privation/appeal to popularity

"Suspension of the football program would bring with it significant unintended harm to many who have nothing to do with this case. The sanctions we have crafted are more focused and impactful than that blanket penalty.

It essentially says "we could have imposed more unintended harm than we are." It doesn't deny unintended harm, only that it's "more focused."