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  1. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Isn't that like saying BP wasn't responsible for the oil spill? After all, BP isn't a person. BP is tens of thousands of people.

    When you say BP is responsible, are you saying everyone under the BP umbrella is responsible? Of course not. For a news headline, sure, but in the case of PSU where we have names responsible casting blanket statements is lazy and unfair.

    In no way am I saying there wasn't a cover up, but you can't simply say "Penn State covered up the scandal", it's meaningless.
    “Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.”

    –Eleanor Roosevelt




  2. #26

    Re: NCAA Responds to Penn. Governor's Lawsuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Sirdowski View Post
    When you say BP is responsible, are you saying everyone under the BP umbrella is responsible? Of course not. For a news headline, sure, but in the case of PSU where we have names responsible casting blanket statements is lazy and unfair.

    In no way am I saying there wasn't a cover up, but you can't simply say "Penn State covered up the scandal", it's meaningless.
    Yes, I can say that PSU covered it up. The head coach, the athletic director and the PRESIDENT OF THE UNIVERSITY were forced to resign after the findings of the Grand Jury. That's the three most powerful men on a college campus. Hell, not only did they cover it up but they let the sick bastard maintain an office on campus after, I repeat AFTER, the original allegations.

    When Miami was under investigation because of Shapiro (spelling) it was the University that was blamed for lack of institutional control. When the NCAA handed SMU the death penalty, it was for a lack of institutional control. I'm not sure about anybody else, but if there's a pedophile running around raping little boys in the locker room that sure hints at a glaring lack of institutional control.

    This is an opinion board, Sirdowski, so I don't say this lightly, but you're wrong. Sandusky was paid by PSU. Sandusky was allowed to maintain an office at PSU after he retired. Three people have been brought up on charges for their role in the cover-up. These are the actions of a University that put football above the safety of children.

    You say we have names of the people responsible, and you're right. Joe Paterno, head coach of the Penn State football team, covered up the sexual abuse of children. Graham Spanier, President of Penn State University, covered up the sexual abuse of children. Gary Schultz, Vice-President of Penn State University, covered up the sexual abuse of children. Timothy Curley, the Athletic Director for Penn State University, covered up the sexual abuse of children. These people are not secretaries, or custodians. They were the leaders of Penn State. They were the face of Penn State. They made the decisions for Penn State.

    So yeah, I feel pretty comfortable saying Penn State covered up decades of sexual abuse.




  3. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by darb72 View Post
    if there's a pedophile running around raping little boys in the locker room that sure hints at a glaring lack of institutional control.,
    This is absolutely wrong. Sandusky was a grade 'A' sociopath. A masterfully insidious man who fooled everyone. Hiring a sociopath is a hint at a lack of institutional control? Absurd.




    This is an opinion board, Sirdowski, so I don't say this lightly, but you're wrong. Sandusky was paid by PSU. Sandusky was allowed to maintain an office at PSU after he retired. Three people have been brought up on charges for their role in the cover-up. These are the actions of a University that put football above the safety of children.
    So again, merely unknowingly hiring a sociopath is an indictment on the university?

    The guilty men involved deserve everything they get.


    They were the leaders of Penn State. They were the face of Penn State. They made the decisions for Penn State.
    And they should be tried accordingly, and are.

    So yeah, I feel pretty comfortable saying Penn State covered up decades of sexual abuse.

    Comfortable in the intellectually lazy sort of way I imagine?

    Picture a woman walking up to you sobbing, she tells you she is a higher up and integral leader at the school and she's devastated about what happened. You comfortably reply

    "yeah, Penn State really screwed up"

    with which she replies,
    "Excuse me, I have been here since Mr. Paterno was a young man, I am just as much Penn State as anyone, and I did nothing wrong"

    what are you going to say? Something even more arbitrary?

    "Oh well, I mean, your part of Penn State, but those men were Penn State, they were in charge"
    “Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.”

    –Eleanor Roosevelt




  4. #28
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    Re: NCAA Responds to Penn. Governor's Lawsuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Sirdowski View Post
    This is absolutely wrong. Sandusky was a grade 'A' sociopath. A masterfully insidious man who fooled everyone. Hiring a sociopath is a hint at a lack of institutional control? Absurd.
    Yes, hiring a sociopath is most definitely NOT a lack of institutional control.

    Keeping a known child rapist on the books, covering up his actions to protect the schools image and then quietly force him into the sunset via a pretty sweet parachute most certainly is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sirdowski View Post
    Comfortable in the intellectually lazy sort of way I imagine?

    Picture a woman walking up to you sobbing, she tells you she is a higher up and integral leader at the school and she's devastated about what happened. You comfortably reply

    "yeah, Penn State really screwed up"

    with which she replies,
    "Excuse me, I have been here since Mr. Paterno was a young man, I am just as much Penn State as anyone, and I did nothing wrong"

    what are you going to say? Something even more arbitrary?

    "Oh well, I mean, your part of Penn State, but those men were Penn State, they were in charge"
    I think you're projecting here.

    The leaders of every orgainized endeavor have been blamed for things since time and memorial.

    Sub commanders are responsible for the wrong doings of those under them.

    Presidents take the blame for crappy conditions in the country.

    CEO's are held accountable when companies get caught up in wrong doing.

    At PSU, we have actual proof, thanks to email exchanges, they covered up a horrific crime. Here is where your anaology falls apart even further. The leaders of the institution were actual actors in the bad behavior. Yet, you some how now want to parse words to make some point about what you think is an over reaching NCAA?

    I am not even sure what you're arguing anymore.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  5. #29
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    Re: NCAA Responds to Penn. Governor's Lawsuit

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Yes, hiring a sociopath is most definitely NOT a lack of institutional control.

    Keeping a known child rapist on the books, covering up his actions to protect the schools image and then quietly force him into the sunset via a pretty sweet parachute most certainly is.




    I think you're projecting here.

    The leaders of every orgainized endeavor have been blamed for things since time and memorial.

    Sub commanders are responsible for the wrong doings of those under them.

    Presidents take the blame for crappy conditions in the country.

    CEO's are held accountable when companies get caught up in wrong doing.

    At PSU, we have actual proof, thanks to email exchanges, they covered up a horrific crime. Here is where your anaology falls apart even further. The leaders of the institution were actual actors in the bad behavior. Yet, you some how now want to parse words to make some point about what you think is an over reaching NCAA?

    I am not even sure what you're arguing anymore.
    Do you have a link to the emails? All I can find is stories about what the emails say...
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  6. #30
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    Re: NCAA Responds to Penn. Governor's Lawsuit

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    I think you're projecting here.
    I know that's your go-to, but it really is insulting.


    The leaders of every orgainized endeavor have been blamed for things since time and memorial.
    Appeal to tradition? Your better than that.

    I disagree with this idea that there was a lack of institutional control, which is the main reason for the sanctions. No amount of control could have prevented a handful of individuals and a sociopath from the conniving that took place. The only reason I was forced to get into the semantics over the use of "PSU", was the use of the over simplification "Penn state covered it up, therefore Penn state deserved the sanctions". This issue isn't a simple one-to-one correspondence.

    The leaders of the institution were actual actors in the bad behavior.
    And the guilty men will and have received their criminal punishment. I will never agree with the superficiality behind the retributive justice of the sanctions over the entire university.


    It seems at this point it would be best to agree to disagree.
    “Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.”

    –Eleanor Roosevelt




  7. #31
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    Re: NCAA Responds to Penn. Governor's Lawsuit

    Oh, and my user title says bloviating bloviator for a reason.
    “Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.”

    –Eleanor Roosevelt




  8. #32
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    My apologies if you found my words insulting, Sir. Certainly wasn't my intent.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  9. #33
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    Re: NCAA Responds to Penn. Governor's Lawsuit

    Quote Originally Posted by Sirdowski View Post
    This is absolutely wrong. Sandusky was a grade 'A' sociopath. A masterfully insidious man who fooled everyone. Hiring a sociopath is a hint at a lack of institutional control? Absurd.
    No.

    However, not "dealing" with said sociopath in a responsible and ethical manner does point to a lack of institutional control simply because the men who had the power (AD, JoePa, and the PSU President...and likely others...) didn't do anything about it.

    It isn't the student body's fault. It isn't the player's fault.

    However, the "Penn State Brand" is tainted because the men with final say on things of this nature didn't want to have a final say.
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  10. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    My apologies if you found my words insulting, Sir. Certainly wasn't my intent.
    It's all good. I understand where you were coming from. It was a solid jab, I don't mind as long as they aren't cheap shots.
    “Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.”

    –Eleanor Roosevelt




  11. #35
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    Re: NCAA Responds to Penn. Governor's Lawsuit

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    No.

    However, not "dealing" with said sociopath in a responsible and ethical manner does point to a lack of institutional control simply because the men who had the power (AD, JoePa, and the PSU President...and likely others...) didn't do anything about it.

    It isn't the student body's fault. It isn't the player's fault.

    However, the "Penn State Brand" is tainted because the men with final say on things of this nature didn't want to have a final say.
    The brand was tainted without NCAA intervention. The damage was done.


    You guys I've really been mulling this over the past couple days. The biggest problem I have is the logic behind the NCAA saying they wanted to make an example of PSU, and that the sanctions were to discourage this kind of activity in the future. First, forget about the university, if the men of such low integrity are willing to assume the personal risk of criminal charges to cover this up, let alone the kind of weight on their conscience, why would they care about what happens to the university if they're found out? If they're going to take the risk, the number one factor is what could happen to themselves. Anything after that is irrelevant, criminal charges will preclude their careers at and involvement with PSU. Second, there's the logic that it's not about stopping low integrity men from their actions, it's about encouraging men of high integrity, or others in charge, to not allow something like this to take place. This to me is ridiculous. No amount of micromanagement could have prevented what happened. As disturbing as it sounds, Sandusky knew what he was doing. He knew when to pounce and when to wait so to not get caught, and the others were initially deceived, then didn't have the guts to admit they made a mistake and come forward. Thirdly, there's the logic that this is a reminder of what happens when you let the football culture get out of control. We all no football culture is out of control no matter what. It's our faults. We have made it so huge and so important that it has become essential not only to the university, but to the surrounding area of that state. That said, I do not see the necessary correlative here as out of control football culture.

    Ironically, NCAA president, Mark Emmert as the then chancellor of LSU is quoted as saying,

    "The critical role of our football program is clear: it is of vital importance to the entire community: our students, our fans, and alumni worldwide and the state of Louisiana. Simply put, success In LSU football is essential for the success of Louisiana State University."


    In my opinion what happened was these men initially gave Sandusky the benefit of the doubt, and later as more incidents and information seemed to come up, out of their own self interest of being held responsible for the previous issues they ignored, panicked and ended up creating a monster. "Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practise to deceive" sums it up perfectly.

    I understand entirely the reasons for the NCAA's sanctions, I just fundamentally disagree.
    “Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.”

    –Eleanor Roosevelt




  12. #36

    Re: NCAA Responds to Penn. Governor's Lawsuit

    I'm going to put this as simply as possible.

    Should USC be punished because Pete Carroll cheated?




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