Manti Te'o hoax (wth?!?)

[JAB1985]

The interviews in that article are with Brian, not Manti. As we've established, Manti did deceive his family into believing they had met and interacted in person, likely to cover his shame that the girl he was falling for was merely just a voice on the telephone for the moment.

fair enough. still something odd about the whole scenario and in this day and age "meeting on the internet" is a pretty common occurrence.

[NCRAVEN]

one interview he says she doesnt exist. Previous interview he says she does and met her. They cant both be right but yet both are said. you can say its the same thing im just not choosing to ignore the previous but taking in both interviews to determine that something isnt adding up.

Why would he come out and say he met her while admitting she doesnt exist? that would take a special kind of stupid.

I and I think Luke have said it a few times. To avoid the embarrassment or shame or whatever you want to calling of having a relationship with someone you've fallen for but haven't met.

Many can't wrap their head around that, but I know people who are similar to this, so I've seen it first hand.

IF Manti's story is true, I would bet the reason he fell for her, is him being a devout Mormon and not having sex before marriage he didn't have a real girlfriend because he might feel pressure to have sex and avoided a real relationship altogether. So instead he was desperate and believed everything with this girl.

Again, if you've never seen anyone like this it's hard to imagine, but I have personally seen people like this.

[LukeDaniel]

one interview he says she doesnt exist. Previous interview he says she does and met her. They cant both be right but yet both are said. you can say its the same thing im just not choosing to ignore the previous but taking in both interviews to determine that something isnt adding up.

Why would he come out and say he met her while admitting she doesnt exist? that would take a special kind of stupid.

I don't think you are making an effort to understand the facts of this whole situation.

#1--- find me an interview where Manti HIMSELF says that he met her in person. Even if you can, that was his biggest offense, lying about meeting her to provide more legitimacy to his online relationship. I'm not saying it was right to do so, but I think it's a far more forgivable offense than to have created the entire hoax.

#2---The interviews where he talks about his "girlfriend" were two months before he even found out that she wasn't real. Again, he got a call from the supposedly dead girl a couple nights before the Heisman ceremony and, after realizing he had been caught in a hoax, he went to ND authorities.

[bmorecareful]

Lol, it doesn't prove anything? Don't think you're a tad biased here? You think Teo just called those numbers and let his cell phone stay on for 8 hours? You think he was talking to a buddy for 8 hours a night? You think he wanted to make all those extended phone calls just to prolong the hoax? Cmon now.

No. No. That's plausible. That's less plausible. If he wanted to prolong the hoax, yes.

You are choosing to believe basically Te'o and ND's statement of events exactly as they were promulgated. That's your prerogative, but I believe the evidence to support that notion is less credible and less voluminous than the evidence which suggests Te'o had at least SOME degree of knowledge of what was going on. That's the bottom line here.

This could all change if the report of investigation or other documentary evidence that ND's PI uncovered is revealed. But guess what? Here's another guarantee for you: it won't be, nor will anything else be revealed by ND or the Te'o family. They will issue brief statements, sit back, and decline to answer most questions, citing privacy concerns.

Look, I deal with duplicitous and deceitful people for a living. I'm just seeing a lot of behavioral patterns here that correlate to deception. I know how these kinds of things proceed. Te'o seems to be following the "admit to a lesser offense and beg forgiveness in hope of distracting attention from the unanswered questions" approach. I believe that he and his people think they can just deflect this if they spin it into a Catfish story. He will have ND's help in that respect and unless criminal activity occurred there's very little chance that any really credible source will stand up, challenge him, and win in the court of public opinion.

You don't have to be 21 to fall for an online relationship hoax.

You can just Google "Dateline Online dating scam" or other online dating scams.

Check this out, it's a documentary about what could have happened to T'eo

There are critical dissimilarities between your typical online girlfriend/Catfish hoax and what happened with Te'o. I can't summarize them all, but if it really was a Catfish scam, it's the greatest one ever perpetrated--because of 1) the size of the cast of characters involved, 2) the high media attention and scrutiny subjected to the mark, 3) the size of the web of social media involved, 4) the length of time it transpired, etc. etc...

I'm not saying Te'o's version of the story is impossible. It's just less likely given what we know and can surmise at this point.

[LukeDaniel]

fair enough. still something odd about the whole scenario and in this day and age "meeting on the internet" is a pretty common occurrence.

I agree with you, sir. Something is definitely odd. I met my wife online and did a ton of online dating in my single days. I talked for hours on the phone with girls before meeting in person, but never considered one a girlfriend. It doesn't seem normal to me. However, even though it seems like something a guy from "The Big Bang Theory" would do, and not something the nation's most recognized football plyer would do, I still think the "evidence" that he originated the Hoax is microscopic at the moment.

[NCRAVEN]

There are critical dissimilarities between your typical online girlfriend/Catfish hoax and what happened with Te'o. I can't summarize them all, but if it really was a Catfish scam, it's the greatest one ever perpetrated--because of 1) the size of the cast of characters involved, 2) the high media attention and scrutiny subjected to the mark, 3) the size of the web of social media involved, 4) the length of time it transpired, etc. etc...

To your points:
1) How many does it take? One or two?
2) It did not get high media attention until it was over
3) A facebook, twitter and email Hoax is hardly difficult to pull off
4) I can understand this one, but people desperate for a relationship are gullible to say the least.

I may be playing devils advocate just a bit too much her, but it seems, you're just trying to confirm what you believe.

BTW - I find it ironic a bunch of guys on the internet (whit thousands of post on this site) are debating if someone could fall for an internet relationship

[bmorecareful]

The interviews in that article are with Brian, not Manti. As we've established, Manti did deceive his family into believing they had met and interacted in person, likely to cover his shame that the girl he was falling for was merely just a voice on the telephone for the moment.

First of all, it isn't "established" that Te'o deceived his family. But even if it were, so Te'o deceived EVERYONE around him--friends, family, teammates, MEMBERS OF THE MEDIA, etc. and yet you can't accept that it's not a bridge too far to believe he did it wilfully, instead of just out of embarassment?

A practiced and skillful deceiver like Te'o is not prone to be so easily deceived by others. So you mean to tell me that all the times Manti told his family he was meeting her in Hawaii, only for her not to show up, he never got concerned, nor did his family? All the times he interacted with her family (people obviously of varying ages, backgrounds, and personalities) he never noticed anything weird about their interactions? He never found it strange that even though she claimed (AND HE TOLD OTHERS) that she was in the hospital, no nurses ever came to check her blood pressure?

I mean, there are just STAGGERING leaps of faith you need to make to believe that Te'o was just merrily trotting along, being tricked by a MASSIVE web of lies and MASSIVE cast of characters, while ALL THE WHILE HE HIMSELF WAS MASTERFULLY MANIPULATING HIS ENTIRE WORLD TO ACCOUNT FOR HIS SHAME OVER AN ONLINE GIRLFRIEND.

So after you get through believing all of that I have a great tract of oceanfront territory in Nevada I'd love to sell to you.

It amuses me how we as an educated fanbase get so upset when Raven-haters always reference the Ray Lewis "murder" as a way of impuning his character, even though the facts of the situation show that, at worst, he was an uncooperative witness. Now Teo is accused of doing something far less worse, and the Notre Dame-haters have already confirmed his guilt.

First of all, the dissimilarities between Ray Lewis and Manti Te'o are too numerous to name--chiefly that we actually had access to the facts revealed by the investigation in Atlanta BECAUSE IT WAS SUBJECT TO SCRUTINY IN A PUBLIC COURT OF LAW. Te'o is, to this point, not.

Ah, and there's the rub. I guess you're a Notre Dame fan, then? I'm not a hater of that institution, but I am hesitant to accept their word at face value--especially after we saw another similar institution like PSU lie through their teeth to protect themselves and their stakeholders. I might be cynical, but not particularly so for ND.

[NCRAVEN]

A practiced and skillful deceiver like Te'o

Sorry dude, but this is absurd. I hope to God if I am ever on trial you're not on the jury.

I love reading your football post, but I can't take anything on this subject you say seriously.

[JAB1985]

I and I think Luke have said it a few times. To avoid the embarrassment or shame or whatever you want to calling of having a relationship with someone you've fallen for but haven't met.

Many can't wrap their head around that, but I know people who are similar to this, so I've seen it first hand.

IF Manti's story is true, I would bet the reason he fell for her, is him being a devout Mormon and not having sex before marriage he didn't have a real girlfriend because he might feel pressure to have sex and avoided a real relationship altogether. So instead he was desperate and believed everything with this girl.

Again, if you've never seen anyone like this it's hard to imagine, but I have personally seen people like this.

And thats fine, im not saying its not plausible or evidence points conclusively to one side or the other. Im saying what does this say to teams... hes a liar and easily "duped". Im sure some teams will look at it as nothing, others will see issue with it. Thats taking it best case scenario for him and assuming hes being honest now and not in on it. Either way it effects his stock in some way.

not going to the hospital or funeral i would think negates the argument that hes was simply socially naive and in love with her but embarrassed about how they met, at least on some level. I would think the girl you tell your parents you want to or could see yourself marry would at least mean you see her whens shes sick or dead.

I don't think you are making an effort to understand the facts of this whole situation.

#1--- find me an interview where Manti HIMSELF says that he met her in person. Even if you can, that was his biggest offense, lying about meeting her to provide more legitimacy to his online relationship. I'm not saying it was right to do so, but I think it's a far more forgivable offense than to have created the entire hoax.

#2---The interviews where he talks about his "girlfriend" were two months before he even found out that she wasn't real. Again, he got a call from the supposedly dead girl a couple nights before the Heisman ceremony and, after realizing he had been caught in a hoax, he went to ND authorities.

Thats fine, and thats your prerogative but just because im not agreeing with you doesnt mean im not understanding the evidence. You need to hear it from the horses mouth so to speak. Im not saying anything is wrong with that, but your defendant in the best scenario is still a liar and thats his saving grace to his character and reputation?

Im not saying its not possible i just think something is going on. Hes the one that brought this onto himself by lying in the first place.

[bmorecareful]

To your points:
1) How many does it take? One or two?
2) It did not get high media attention until it was over
3) A facebook, twitter and email Hoax is hardly difficult to pull off
4) I can understand this one, but people desperate for a relationship are gullible to say the least.

I may be playing devils advocate just a bit too much her, but it seems, you're just trying to confirm what you believe.

BTW - I find it ironic a bunch of guys on the internet (whit thousands of post on this site) are debating if someone could fall for an internet relationship

Nobody's debating if someone could fall for an internet relationship. It happens all the time. We're all familiar with internet communication... I didn't meet my wife online but we communicated over the internet when we were dating and I moved across the country on a long-term work detail for 4 months. There was plenty of intimacy and genuine emotion there. I also know in my personal life at least one couple that got their start through internet dating. I find nothing questionable about that and unfortunately as a corollary, as you know, hoaxes and whatnot can occur.

The problem is... based on the information we have, it just seems to me to be a more likely scenario that Te'o had some knowledge of what was going on. It requires fewer leaps of faith and fewer gaps in logic.

And if you think Te'o and his girlfriend weren't subject to huge media scrutiny, you're wrong. How many major national media outlets carried the story of Te'o playing with a heavy heart in the wake of the deaths of two people very near and dear to him? It was literally EVERYWHERE. And yet none of those journalists thought to do their due diligence and make basic inquiries into the circumstances surrounding the girlfriend's death! (Nobody pulled an obit, nobody contacted the school to find out her major/extracurriculars/etc., nobody contacted any other schools, community organizations, etc.)

The only footnote to that... interestingly enough... Gene Wojciechowski of ESPN DID do his due diligence. He asked Te'o if he could talk to Lennay's family... Te'o claimed they had refused. He asked for pictures of Lennay from the family through Te'o... Te'o refused. He couldn't find anything about her at all through internet. Te'o was the one who ran around telling everyone in the media about this despite not having any hard proof of anything that had happened. (link to the Gene W. interview: http://espn.go.com/blog/notre-dame-f...-teo-interview)

And by the way... I have to reiterate that the cast of characters is pretty damn big here. Te'o made passing comments regarding Lennay's friends, several family members (including at least a mother, father, and an older sibling)... that's what I mean by "web of social media." ALL of them were texting, Tweeting, on Facebook, etc... you're talking about individual accounts for each of them and "actors" to get on the phone and pretend to be them since Te'o claimed he had talked to them. That's a really complex operation.

[bmorecareful]

Sorry dude, but this is absurd. I hope to God if I am ever on trial you're not on the jury.

I love reading your football post, but I can't take anything on this subject you say seriously.

For the version of events you and LukeDaniel are buying into to be true, it means Te'o manipulated and deceived a lot of people into believing in Lennay and especially that he had met Lennay. That includes Te's whole family as well as (in all likelihood) numerous friends and teammates. YOU are saying that, not me, and what else do you call someone who deceives people other than a deceiver?

You can disagree with me as much as you like and I have no problem with that. This isn't a criminal matter and the burden of proof is not beyond reasonable doubt, only a preponderance of the evidence. I have worked in law enforcement and given sworn testimony on the witness stand many times over my career--would I testify to any of this? No, of course not! This is all just bullshitting. We're not talking about convicting this kid, only our opinions on what might have happened as we see it.

[NCRAVEN]

For the version of events you and LukeDaniel are buying into to be true, it means Te'o manipulated and deceived a lot of people into believing in Lennay and especially that he had met Lennay. That includes Te's whole family as well as (in all likelihood) numerous friends and teammates. YOU are saying that, not me, and what else do you call someone who deceives people other than a deceiver?

That would only be true if he is 100% guilty as you seem to believe he is, or should I say convinced he is.

You can disagree with me as much as you like and I have no problem with that. This isn't a criminal matter and the burden of proof is not beyond reasonable doubt, only a preponderance of the evidence. I have worked in law enforcement and given sworn testimony on the witness stand many times over my career--would I testify to any of this? No, of course not! This is all just bullshitting. We're not talking about convicting this kid, only our opinions on what might have happened as we see it.

Which is pretty shocking to me, when you want to convict someone in the court of public opinion without even hearing their side of the story.

[HoustonRaven]

I'm reserving final judgement until the money trail is fully investigated.

That said, the smoke surrounding Te'o is incredibly thick. Of course he could be a victim of a hoax, but it seems with each day there's a new question that needs to be answered.

[bmorecareful]

That would only be true if he is 100% guilty as you seem to believe he is, or should I say convinced he is.

Okay, you're still not getting it. This isn't an issue of guilt or innocence. If I am incorrectly depicting your stance please feel free to correct me. But you have said that you believe Te'o was the victim of a hoax, and that at most, he lied to cover up the fact that he had never met her.

I'm merely pointing out the fact that if that's true--if YOUR position is correct--then he still had to tell a LOT of lies to a LOT of people. Actually, I'll let your post from earlier speak to this issue:

I get that. To me and you that means in person. Haven't you ever hearing of people "meeting online" or it's also possible about what I said him saying they "met" to stop questions about why are you with a girl you haven't met

There are a lot of lies, and I don't think he's entirely innocent, but I feel the majority of it he was caught up in a hoax. Maybe when he found out he started lying and said we met etc.

But I don't believe he started the whole thing from the beginning and called a phone for hours with no one on the other end (which ND's investigation confirmed he did do) to tell people he talked to his girlfriend at night. If he did that than he is mentally ill.

My emphasis added to the above post. All I'm saying is that if your position is correct, Te'o had to deceive a lot of people--even if he did it out for understandable reasons. I just don't see an average person going to that length of deception without THEMSELVES becoming suspicious of being deceived. But, I will readily grant that love causes people to do bizarre things--that's why, once again, I must concede that your position raises good points and can't simply be dismissed out of hand.

Which is pretty shocking to me, when you want to convict someone in the court of public opinion without even hearing their side of the story.

I have a number of problems with this statement. First of all, that statement--"convicting someone in the court of public opinion"--is just totally bogus. We're merely expressing our opinions here, and (unless I'm mistaken) none of us have any kind of media cachet or influence to rise to the level of influencing public opinion. Is this any different from debating the issue around the water cooler? Why does skepticism of Te'o's stance rise to the level of "convicting" him? He's not on trial here and he GAVE his statement yesterday (although he's also said he's going to give another statement today.) We're free to judge it as we will. He's a public figure and so subject to public scrutiny.

I can separate my private opinion regarding a matter from my professional ability to draw conclusions from evidence. At this point, we're all pretty much pissing into the wind as far as actual fact-finding, I can readily admit that. But I think your attempt to smear me personally for my opinion is beneath you and not deserving of inclusion in this discussion. Disagree with me as you please and we'll all grow and benefit from the discussion, but don't lower yourself to a personal attack.

[bmorecareful]

I'm reserving final judgement until the money trail is fully investigated.

That said, the smoke surrounding Te'o is incredibly thick. Of course he could be a victim of a hoax, but it seems with each day there's a new question that needs to be answered.

Agreed 100%. All we're trying to point out here is that there are a ton of inconsistencies that make the official version of events seem quite a bit less than fully credible. Doesn't mean it's DEFINITELY not true, but there's more to this than we've gotten, and I agree that the biggest outstanding issue is the money.

[NCRAVEN]

Okay, you're still not getting it. This isn't an issue of guilt or innocence. If I am incorrectly depicting your stance please feel free to correct me. But you have said that you believe Te'o was the victim of a hoax, and that at most, he lied to cover up the fact that he had never met her.

I'm merely pointing out the fact that if that's true--if YOUR position is correct--then he still had to tell a LOT of lies to a LOT of people. Actually, I'll let your post from earlier speak to this issue:

No that is not my stance, I am simply throwing out possibilities of what happened since we still don't know everything or his side of the story.

I have a number of problems with this statement. First of all, that statement--"convicting someone in the court of public opinion"--is just totally bogus. We're merely expressing our opinions here

Which are public right? I think you're being to literal with taking my comment of public opinion to the exact definition.

Is this any different from debating the issue around the water cooler? Why does skepticism of Te'o's stance rise to the level of "convicting" him? He's not on trial here and he GAVE his statement yesterday (although he's also said he's going to give another statement today.) We're free to judge it as we will. He's a public figure and so subject to public scrutiny.

Sorry, has there been somewhere where we are debating this, or just where you've been trying to convince us he's guilty?

I can separate my private opinion regarding a matter from my professional ability to draw conclusions from evidence. At this point, we're all pretty much pissing into the wind as far as actual fact-finding, I can readily admit that. But I think your attempt to smear me personally for my opinion is beneath you and not deserving of inclusion in this discussion. Disagree with me as you please and we'll all grow and benefit from the discussion, but don't lower yourself to a personal attack.

I'm not lowering myself to a personal attack. I am calling it as I see it. Someone in law enforcement is saying someone is guilty based of one article and not hearing the other side of the story, so much so that the have said Manti is "A practiced and skillful deceiver".

He may be the biggest fraud ever, but I think based of one article (slanted or not) is a bit premature to claim we know enough to say he is a "A practiced and skillful deceiver".

[JAB1985]

Jim Rome, not really a fan, was just saying on the radio basically what we are here. There isnt enough to say its 100% either way, but something is fishy, mostly that for somebody he called his "soul mate" to not show up when she was sick or the funeral yet still refer to her as his GF is just really odd. Doesnt mean its not true but the fact hes now turning down interviews and continuing to hide even though hes claiming to be a victim lets more people question his sincerity. He said about taking time to prepare his statements and that if he is a victim he should be yelling from the rooftop that he is. i dont know if i agree with the last part at all but it would put it to rest in public opinioin i believe.

If there is money involved than that would be more damning than any of this. Really this effects nobody and im just curious how it effects his draft stock. people getting swindled is another issue entirely.

[jonboy79]

I'm not sure how Bmorecareful's posts are being misread.

At the VERY LEAST, Te'o was deceiving his family and freinds. That much cannot be denied. His father at least pointed to the fact that Te'o mentioned she was in Hawaii and that Te'o had met in person.

So the best light you can paint Te'o in is that he had an online girlfriend whom he claimed to have met in person to avoid the shame his teammates and parents would place on him. That is the BEST possible light. IF you buy into the catfish angle of the story, then he simply deceived his circle of influence into believing their relationship was more then it was. Again, not the most horrible thing ever, but it still is a chain of lies and deception.

I can buy that as one of amny posibilities, but I certainly dn't think the preponderance of evidence points to that as basically the only scenario. I agree that it certainly smells more then a little fishy that he was in on the whole thing. Besides the publicity angle, I think there are several other reasons he could have been involved. I think the 8 hour phone calls are even explainable with other possible scenarios.

So at the very least, Te'o comes out of this smelling fishy.

[bmorecareful]

No that is not my stance, I am simply throwing out possibilities of what happened since we still don't know everything or his side of the story.

Which are public right? I think you're being to literal with taking my comment of public opinion to the exact definition.

Sorry, has there been somewhere where we are debating this, or just where you've been trying to convince us he's guilty?

I'm not lowering myself to a personal attack. I am calling it as I see it. Someone in law enforcement is saying someone is guilty based of one article and not hearing the other side of the story, so much so that the have said Manti is "A practiced and skillful deceiver".

He may be the biggest fraud ever, but I think based of one article (slanted or not) is a bit premature to claim we know enough to say he is a "A practiced and skillful deceiver".

Find me ONE TIME where I said he was "guilty" of anything. He's not been charged with a crime and it certainly doesn't look like he's going to be based on what we know.

All I have said is that it seems likely to me that he had some degree of knowledge about what was going on, and I don't believe he's completely the victim that the official statements make him out to be. I have no idea what the extent of his knowledge or role in the hoax may have been. It's all a big mess that nobody knows for sure about.

You seem to be really hung up on the fact that I used those words earlier to describe Te'o, but I used them SPECIFICALLY in the context of the claim (that you're now denying that you made or agreed with) that Te'o lied to his family about having met her, lied about the circumstances surrounding her, etc. IF he did those things, then what else is he? I really find it hard to see how Manti couldn't have told a bunch of lies and deceived a lot of people over this.

In retrospect, my words were too strong even given that context and I apologize for them. I do NOT want to give the impression that I'm passing judgment on Manti's character as a whole, which is an unknown to all but those who know him well. I see indications of deception here, but that's not a value judgment. Everybody lies, everybody deceives somebody at one point or another in their lives, some of us just do it from a bigger stage.

I think what you're telling me is that you don't like the opinions I'm expressing and you don't believe I should be expressing them publicly. I don't want to be disagreeable so I'm going to oblige you and take a break from this thread for a while and maybe come back once more information is known. PM me if you're still unsatisfied.

[NCRAVEN]

Find me ONE TIME where I said he was "guilty" of anything. He's not been charged with a crime and it certainly doesn't look like he's going to be based on what we know.

I did not mean guilty of a crime. I am sure you've noticed, I'm not big into long drawn out thorough post covering every possible objection that may come in response. When I say guilty, I mean guilty of the fullest claims here - that he was fully involved with the hoax from the begining

All I have said is that it seems likely to me that he had some degree of knowledge about what was going on, and I don't believe he's completely the victim that the official statements make him out to be. I have no idea what the extent of his knowledge or role in the hoax may have been. It's all a big mess that nobody knows for sure about.

Which I have no problem with and could certainly turn out to be the case. It just didn't come off that way. It seemed as though you thought we (people looking for explanations/possibilities of him being innocent) were stupid and naive for believing anything other than he fully participated from beginning to end.

You seem to be really hung up on the fact that I used those words earlier to describe Te'o, but I used them SPECIFICALLY in the context of the claim (that you're now denying that you made or agreed with) that Te'o lied to his family about having met her, lied about the circumstances surrounding her, etc. IF he did those things, then what else is he? I really find it hard to see how Manti couldn't have told a bunch of lies and deceived a lot of people over this.

I am not denying I said them, I am throwing out possibilities of explanations, that's all

In retrospect, my words were too strong even given that context and I apologize for them. I do NOT want to give the impression that I'm passing judgment on Manti's character as a whole, which is an unknown to all but those who know him well. I see indications of deception here, but that's not a value judgment. Everybody lies, everybody deceives somebody at one point or another in their lives, some of us just do it from a bigger stage.

I think what you're telling me is that you don't like the opinions I'm expressing and you don't believe I should be expressing them publicly. I don't want to be disagreeable so I'm going to oblige you and take a break from this thread for a while and maybe come back once more information is known. PM me if you're still unsatisfied.

No, express anything you wish. You really think I have a problem with someone expressing an opinion on a message board? Really? I don't think you believe that.

I just didn't like that seemed there was no other option due to what you felt was more evidence pointing to him being behind the whole thing, without hearing his side of the story (other than a statement he released) or answers to the questions we all think need to be asked. And that may not been exactly what you were doing, it might be more of the larger problem I have with nowadays people being accused of something now means they did it.