Premature Discussion of Flacco's Mounting Hall of Fame Credentials

[LukeDaniel]

I have to think that if Flacco continues on his trajectory - which I think will continue upward given what we've been seeing this year, that you won't have to worry about pro-bowls or awards. I strongly suspect going forward he's going to have a few 30+ TD, 4000+ yard seasons under his belt. Pro-bowls don't really mean anything much anymore, and I think the writers know it, but - Flacco is probably going to find himself in more than a few of them from here on out due to the perception of him changing so radically this postseason. If he gets MVP in this year's SuperBowl, he's probably a lock for a pro bowl next year unless he falls flat on his face.

What he's done in his first five years is pretty remarkable - if he continues to keep making the playoffs and winning playoff games, he'll be a shoe-in.

+1

[BcRaven]

I don't really care if Flacco makes the HOF or not. He's a much better QB than Dilfer without doubt, but my only sense is that he (Joe) wins a Super Bowl for us Ravens fans. I do not want him to be like Dan Marino, a HOF QB without a championship ring. If Joe can play (speculating here) 15 years, and make it to two Super Bowls (winning both), then I'd be a happy Ravens camper. Wouldn't you? ... Bc

[SC_Raven_Fan]

Regular season Stockmarket Joe is keeping Joe from Probowls......and the HOF.

This team won't have their heart-n-soul leader of the last 17yrs next year. Get the team back to the playoffs and win without him. That will help a great deal....

PS - AND PLAY ON THE ROAD IN THE REGULAR SEASON LIKE YOU PLAY IN THE PLAYOFFS ON THE ROAD!

[s.r.genovese]

If Aikman and Bradshaw get into Canton on the strength of the teams they played on...why shouldn't Flacco? Flacco has actually had to win some games with his arm for the Ravens to have achieved their current status, unlike the two QBs mentioned before.

Of course, the HOF is not always a reflection of sheer talent in comparison with your peers. If it was about sheer talent, Ken Anderson would have the HOF spot of a vastly-inferior Terry Bradshaw. Bradshaw had only one season with a QB rating over 85 and never cracked the 90 mark. Now before you go off and say that was because of his era, let me remind you that is comtemporary Ken Anderson had five seasons with a rating over 85 including FOUR seasons of 95.7, 93.9, 98.4, and 95.3 (all of which led the NFL). Anderson's omission from Canton is an absolute joke.

Lastly, to those who think Flacco is not a HOF QB, I would encourage you to go put Flacco's production/wins/efficiency up against any HOF quarterback. He's going to compare favorably to most.

Terry Bradshaw in his first five years was TERRIBLE. He had 48 TDs against 81 INTs. In fact, in his rookie year, Bradshaw threw 6 TDs and 24 INTs for a QB rating of 30.4 . He was also sacked 25 times in 8 starts. He had a 38.1% completion percentage and threw 24 INTs in 218 attempts. He threw 83 completions to his own teammates and 24 to the opposition. His QB rating was 8.6 points lower than Ryan Leaf's rookie year, which is widely viewed as the worst season in NFL history. If Blaine Gabbert lost his job after his rookie year with a far less disastrous performance , what do you think would have happened to Bradshaw if he played in today's NFL?

Troy Aikman threw 69TDs-66 INTs in his first five years. This included 20TDs/36INTs over his first two seasons. Once the Cowboys started to win, suddenly people forgot about how bad he was early in his career. Aikman never had stats remotely close to HOF enshrinement, despite playing with Hall of Famers right and left on the offensive side of the ball. He never had a 3500 yard season. He only threw over 20 TDs once in his career. His best season in terms of passing yards was the equivolent of Flacco's 5th best season (in 5 years). Flacco is destroying him in career TD/INT ratio (1.82 to 1.17). Lastly, his regular season winning % (.570) isn't anywhere near Flacco's 67.5%. Yet, he won 3 Super Bowls, so his very pedestrian career is suddenly regarded a lot more highly. If Flacco's unparalleled success is credited as being a "game manager", then what was Troy Aikman? Considering that the one thing that game managing QBs are supposed to do well (protect the ball and let your teammates win for you) is an area where Flacco severely trumps Aikman, I think it's hard to argue that he doesn't have the start of HOF credentials.

A lot of QBs currently in Canton had far more struggles and far less success in their first five NFL seasons than Flacco.

Also, Jim Plunkett is a poor comparison. Plunkett had basically played his way out of a starting job in the NFL after years of so-so play in New England. His winning two Super Bowls were in seasons late in his career when he was a backup thrust into a starting/babysitting role on some stacked Raider teams. If Flacco wins two Super Bowls, it will be nothing comparable to the route that Plunkett took to get there.

There are so many variables in determining whether a QB is HOF worthy. Typically, without a win, you have to have the eye-popping stats like Marino or Fouts. The difficultly level gets progressively easier with one win and with multiple appearances. If the Ravens lose this game in 11 days and Flacco never returns to a Super Bowl, he will have to accumulate some insane stats to get into Canton. With one win, the picture changes quite a bit. At that point, he merely needs to put together another 6-8 years closely similar to his 2010 and 2012 seasons and he will be a virtual lock.

I think some people here are undervaluing how much his reputation has changed this postseason. I've heard multiple people refer to him as "one of the most clutch QBs of all-time" or something closely similar to that. That type of reputation, when coupled with a lot of postseason wins, a Super Bowl win, and some good overall stats, is a sure recipe for HOF admission.

Bradshaw and Aikman won lots of Super Bowls while playing on media darling teams (Steelers and Cowboys). Don't discount how much that improves their standing in the eyes of the media. Certainly that inflated Bradshaw's candidacy. Flacco will never have that luxury.

They also played in a much different era of football. Fair or not, Flacco and his stats are going to be compared with his current peers (Rodgers, Manning, Brees, Brady, all have rings) and when compared that, his numbers simply don't match up AS OF NOW. We all hope that changes. He doesn't need to match the numbers exactly. He'll probably never be a 5,000 yard passer. But he has to close the gap some. Like GOTA said, let him make a Pro Bowl before we worry about the HOF.

[lovefootball]

If Aikman and Bradshaw get into Canton on the strength of the teams they played on...why shouldn't Flacco? Flacco has actually had to win some games with his arm for the Ravens to have achieved their current status, unlike the two QBs mentioned before.

Of course, the HOF is not always a reflection of sheer talent in comparison with your peers. If it was about sheer talent, Ken Anderson would have the HOF spot of a vastly-inferior Terry Bradshaw. Bradshaw had only one season with a QB rating over 85 and never cracked the 90 mark. Now before you go off and say that was because of his era, let me remind you that is comtemporary Ken Anderson had five seasons with a rating over 85 including FOUR seasons of 95.7, 93.9, 98.4, and 95.3 (all of which led the NFL). Anderson's omission from Canton is an absolute joke.

Lastly, to those who think Flacco is not a HOF QB, I would encourage you to go put Flacco's production/wins/efficiency up against any HOF quarterback. He's going to compare favorably to most.

Terry Bradshaw in his first five years was TERRIBLE. He had 48 TDs against 81 INTs. In fact, in his rookie year, Bradshaw threw 6 TDs and 24 INTs for a QB rating of 30.4 . He was also sacked 25 times in 8 starts. He had a 38.1% completion percentage and threw 24 INTs in 218 attempts. He threw 83 completions to his own teammates and 24 to the opposition. His QB rating was 8.6 points lower than Ryan Leaf's rookie year, which is widely viewed as the worst season in NFL history. If Blaine Gabbert lost his job after his rookie year with a far less disastrous performance , what do you think would have happened to Bradshaw if he played in today's NFL?

Troy Aikman threw 69TDs-66 INTs in his first five years. This included 20TDs/36INTs over his first two seasons. Once the Cowboys started to win, suddenly people forgot about how bad he was early in his career. Aikman never had stats remotely close to HOF enshrinement, despite playing with Hall of Famers right and left on the offensive side of the ball. He never had a 3500 yard season. He only threw over 20 TDs once in his career. His best season in terms of passing yards was the equivolent of Flacco's 5th best season (in 5 years). Flacco is destroying him in career TD/INT ratio (1.82 to 1.17). Lastly, his regular season winning % (.570) isn't anywhere near Flacco's 67.5%. Yet, he won 3 Super Bowls, so his very pedestrian career is suddenly regarded a lot more highly. If Flacco's unparalleled success is credited as being a "game manager", then what was Troy Aikman? Considering that the one thing that game managing QBs are supposed to do well (protect the ball and let your teammates win for you) is an area where Flacco severely trumps Aikman, I think it's hard to argue that he doesn't have the start of HOF credentials.

A lot of QBs currently in Canton had far more struggles and far less success in their first five NFL seasons than Flacco.

Also, Jim Plunkett is a poor comparison. Plunkett had basically played his way out of a starting job in the NFL after years of so-so play in New England. His winning two Super Bowls were in seasons late in his career when he was a backup thrust into a starting/babysitting role on some stacked Raider teams. If Flacco wins two Super Bowls, it will be nothing comparable to the route that Plunkett took to get there.

There are so many variables in determining whether a QB is HOF worthy. Typically, without a win, you have to have the eye-popping stats like Marino or Fouts. The difficultly level gets progressively easier with one win and with multiple appearances. If the Ravens lose this game in 11 days and Flacco never returns to a Super Bowl, he will have to accumulate some insane stats to get into Canton. With one win, the picture changes quite a bit. At that point, he merely needs to put together another 6-8 years closely similar to his 2010 and 2012 seasons and he will be a virtual lock.

I think some people here are undervaluing how much his reputation has changed this postseason. I've heard multiple people refer to him as "one of the most clutch QBs of all-time" or something closely similar to that. That type of reputation, when coupled with a lot of postseason wins, a Super Bowl win, and some good overall stats, is a sure recipe for HOF admission.

Man, you need to stop posting information showing what other QBs did compared to Flacco. The naysayer will get upset and still not believe you.
Flacco is a quiet QB who does things every year that impresses no one because fans want higher playing stats every time. The cumulation of his first 5 years makes some of the great QBs accomplishments look bad. Give Flacco more years with T Smith,Boldin,J Jones,Pitta, and Caldwell as OC, watch what happens. Receivers who can run and catcghhold on to the damn ball),Joes first 5 years, who did he have to throw to. Derek mason(dropped the winning pass against the steelers), Clayton(dropped more passes then he should have), Evans(sorry to bring it up) and that damn cam cameron(OC coach who couldn't figure out a way for receivers to get separation). Flacco will get better with time and if tthe current receivers stay on. Thats what helped every great QB, a set of receivers to grow with.
I'm with Flacco doing what he has done already. He plays to his abilities and goes about it in a business way. A team needs a QB who stays calm and has a cannon for an arm. Do hope he cuts loose after this season, after this postseason play, he deserves to. Be cool for him to wear an Art Modell T-shirt and hold his newborn up on the podium with his wife. Doubt he does it, he too business like.Hell. I hope all the Ravens wear an Art Modell shirt after the game, Win or lose. Art deserves his props for believing Baltimore was his future and he was right.

[RavenusMaximus]

I think he is going in the right direction. If he wins 2 SBs with his arm and finished his career at the all time top in wins and playoff wins, it will be hard to keep him out.

[SC_Raven_Fan]

Bradshaw and Aikman won lots of Super Bowls while playing on media darling teams (Steelers and Cowboys). Don't discount how much that improves their standing in the eyes of the media. Certainly that inflated Bradshaw's candidacy. Flacco will never have that luxury.

They also played in a much different era of football. Fair or not, Flacco and his stats are going to be compared with his current peers (Rodgers, Manning, Brees, Brady) and when compared that, his number simply don't match up AS OF NOW. We all hope that changes.

Flacco needs all AFC HOF QB's to just effin' retire and give the young man some breathing room. To expect a QB to throw for 4K on an annual basis is insane, but Brees is doing it....and making Joe look pedestrian in the mean time.

[LukeDaniel]

. He'll probably never be a 5,000 yard passer. .

I understand your point and think you make some good points, but let me say that I don't think any team would ever want their QB to be in that 5000 yard club. That typically signals that your team is either involved in a bunch of shootouts (and that your defense is not championship quality) or playing from behind quite a bit.

[seraph]

Man, you need to stop posting information showing what other QBs did compared to Flacco. The naysayer will get upset and still not believe you.
Flacco is a quiet QB who does things every year that impresses no one because fans want higher playing stats every time. The cumulation of his first 5 years makes some of the great QBs accomplishments look bad. Give Flacco more years with T Smith,Boldin,J Jones,Pitta, and Caldwell as OC, watch what happens. Receivers who can run and catcghhold on to the damn ball),Joes first 5 years, who did he have to throw to. Derek mason(dropped the winning pass against the steelers), Clayton(dropped more passes then he should have), Evans(sorry to bring it up) and that damn cam cameron(OC coach who couldn't figure out a way for receivers to get separation). Flacco will get better with time and if tthe current receivers stay on. Thats what helped every great QB, a set of receivers to grow with.
I'm with Flacco doing what he has done already. He plays to his abilities and goes about it in a business way. A team needs a QB who stays calm and has a cannon for an arm. Do hope he cuts loose after this season, after this postseason play, he deserves to. Be cool for him to wear an Art Modell T-shirt and hold his newborn up on the podium with his wife. Doubt he does it, he too business like.Hell. I hope all the Ravens wear an Art Modell shirt after the game, Win or lose. Art deserves his props for believing Baltimore was his future and he was right.

Damn, I don't think a qb on track to the HOF would need that many excuses.

[lovefootball]

Damn, I don't think a qb on track to the HOF would need that many excuses.

What excuses? LOL

[Ngata Da Vida]

Going purely on regular season stats, Joe's first 5 years as a starter track a Ken O'Brien, a Trent Green, a Dave Krieg or a Jim Everett - certainly solid starters, but not HOF guys. What may distinguish him from that group is that he seems to be ascending, and, at age 28 with a very durable frame, will have 10 more years to write his history, long after Brady, Manning and Big Ben are all gone.

[lovefootball]

Joe is quietly racking up NFL records. He has time on his side. I'll wait and see, not one to announce boldly that he isn't a HOF player.

[callahan09]

Going purely on regular season stats, Joe's first 5 years as a starter track a Ken O'Brien, a Trent Green, a Dave Krieg or a Jim Everett - certainly solid starters, but not HOF guys. What may distinguish him from that group is that he seems to be ascending, and, at age 28 with a very durable frame, will have 10 more years to write his history, long after Brady, Manning and Big Ben are all gone.

His five-year regular season stats align favorably with Tom Brady, Brett Favre, Drew Brees, and Peyton Manning.

Brady: 1243/2018, 13925 Yards, 97 TD, 52 INT --> 87.5 QB Rating
Favre: 1342/2149, 14825 Yards, 108 TD, 66 INT --> 86.8 QB Rating
Flacco: 1507/2489, 17633 Yards, 102 TD, 56 INT --> 86.3 QB Rating
Peyton: 1749/2817, 20618 Yards, 138 TD, 100 INT --> 85.9 QB Rating
Brees: 1125/1809, 12348 Yards, 80 TD, 53 INT --> 84.9 QB Rating

Flacco has more passing yards in his first five seasons than anybody except Peyton Manning, Dan Marino, Matt Ryan, and Drew Bledsoe. He's got the 11th most touchdown passes. Nobody with more touchdown passes had thrown fewer INTs. Only one other quarterback who threw 100+ TDs had fewer than 60 INTs.

I'd say that his regular season stats actually compare very well historically. He may not have matched Peyton and Brady's and Brees' contemporary numbers, but that's because those guys aren't young QBs. Compare the first five years of Flacco's career to anybody else's and it is a very favorable comparison for Flacco, and demonstrates a very good start to a career.

That's the problem I have when people say Flacco doesn't have the regular season stats to show he is a worthy QB... they don't even consider looking at how the guys he is being compared to were playing in THEIR earlier seasons. The fact is, not many QBs have ever performed at a Flacco-like level at this point in their careers.

[bacchys]

Wins are nice but no HOF selection committee are going to vote him in on wins and intangibles alone. 2 Super Bowls help but he needs the stats to back it up. Like I said before, Jim Plunkett has two rings and is not a HOF QB. I think Flacco can do it but he needs to increase his production to do so.

Wins worked for Namath and Bradshaw.

[Ngata Da Vida]

Wins worked for Namath and Bradshaw.

Neither of whom really belong in the Hall, IMHO

[londonraven]

I think his trajectory under decent OCs will get joe into Canton easily.

Front office should realise after having Caldwell as OC what is possible long term. if/when Caldwell leaves I expect an OC who will utilise continue to play to Joes strengths which will mean he should flourish (especially vs non playoff defenses in reg season)

Flacco is so durable.

If he continues to play as he has last 4 (meaningful) games especially in regular season, wth his obvious ability to up his play in important games he will be a lock.

Definite pro bowl selection next yr IMHO

[Ngata Da Vida]

His five-year regular season stats align favorably with Tom Brady, Brett Favre, Drew Brees, and Peyton Manning.

Brady: 1243/2018, 13925 Yards, 97 TD, 52 INT --> 87.5 QB Rating
Favre: 1342/2149, 14825 Yards, 108 TD, 66 INT --> 86.8 QB Rating
Flacco: 1507/2489, 17633 Yards, 102 TD, 56 INT --> 86.3 QB Rating
Peyton: 1749/2817, 20618 Yards, 138 TD, 100 INT --> 85.9 QB Rating
Brees: 1125/1809, 12348 Yards, 80 TD, 53 INT --> 84.9 QB Rating

Flacco has more passing yards in his first five seasons than anybody except Peyton Manning, Dan Marino, Matt Ryan, and Drew Bledsoe. He's got the 11th most touchdown passes. Nobody with more touchdown passes had thrown fewer INTs. Only one other quarterback who threw 100+ TDs had fewer than 60 INTs.

I'd say that his regular season stats actually compare very well historically. He may not have matched Peyton and Brady's and Brees' contemporary numbers, but that's because those guys aren't young QBs. Compare the first five years of Flacco's career to anybody else's and it is a very favorable comparison for Flacco, and demonstrates a very good start to a career.

That's the problem I have when people say Flacco doesn't have the regular season stats to show he is a worthy QB... they don't even consider looking at how the guys he is being compared to were playing in THEIR earlier seasons. The fact is, not many QBs have ever performed at a Flacco-like level at this point in their careers.

There is a difference between first 5 years and first 5 years as a starter when making comparisons - in Joe's case, those facts align. Favre, Brees and Brady didn't start right away, and Brady was a ball control manager, to a certain extent, out of the box. My point was Joe is young enough that he has 10 more years to make his case.

[bacchys]

Neither of whom really belong in the Hall, IMHO

Namath was the first 4000 yard passer in the pro football history. Bradshaw was an integral part of those four SB teams, and it's not like those steroid-fueled Steelers teams were crap when they weren't winning a SB.

[GOTA]

And on that note, it's an absolute crock that Dalton and Schaub got picked for Pro Bowls and Flacco hasn't which to me pretty much invalidates the pro bowl as a measure of anything except jack and shit.

Yup. Too bad it's always one of the ways they measure players. With Ray retiring they bring up all the Pro Bowls before the All-Pro teams and even his Defensive Player of the Year awards. Pro Bowls unfortunately mean something to the voters.

[StingerNLG]

Namath was the first 4000 yard passer in the pro football history. Bradshaw was an integral part of those four SB teams, and it's not like those steroid-fueled Steelers teams were crap when they weren't winning a SB.

Bradshaw had the "steel curtain" to lean on though. if you look at his statistics, they are average at best. Wins and SB appearances got him in, not his talent.

As far as the Pro-Bowl. He will never have a shot at the Pro-Bowl as long as Manning and Brady are in the league. He just won't. It's why everyone else gets picked as alternates. And why the Pro-Bowl is a complete joke. That's ok though, because Joe has better things to do right now.

Honestly, whether he truly is or is not on trajectory for the HOF, it's just damn nice to actually have a QB that we can talk about like this.