Brendon Ayanbadejo plans to champion same-sex marriage at the Super Bowl

[ActualSpamBot]

To be clear, no one believes that having faith makes you a bigot. Or even believing that a religious partnership is the exclusive domain of heterosexual couples.

Festivus and I, (if I can speak for him) are stating that a desire to impose that religious exclusivity to the secular concept of LEGAL marriage is a bigoted practice.

Which is why I objected to the idea that both sides are equally intolerant. On one side of the coin are people like Festivus and I who want equal rights for all, AS WELL AS religious folks like my sisters for example, who also want equal legal rights for homosexuals. On the other side are people who don't want that legal equality. That those people are statistically overwhelmingly people of faith is irrelevant to why I believe their view is bigotry.

The desire to deny equal legal rights to all people is bigotry, the motivation behind that desire is merely a distraction to that discussion. (A distraction I admit I am guilty of engaging in too. I'm not trying to declare myself above anyone here.)

I envy people who have faith. I wish I could take comfort in a higher power sometimes. But even if I could, that would not change my desire to see all people being treated equally under the law.

[AirFlacco]

So I should mark you down as a woman beater? Because the Bible says that's cool too.
.

Wrong. I'm sure that was sarcasm or one of your famous tongue-in-cheek comments HR.


The Bible does not say that.

The Pauline epistles make it clear that men should lead the church and not be under the authority of women just as the men should lead the family as God created man first and just as Christ founded the church but no where does it say it's cool to beat women. The Bible makes it clear to take care of the widows (James 1:27, 1 Timothy 5:3-4) , not beat them.

In fact, Jesus took care of his women folk and loved Mary Magdeline and his mother and
told his brother to take care of Mary when he died.

In fact, a woman, Mary Magdeline, was the first to see the resurrected Christ.

In fact, the 4 daughters of Phillip had the spiritual gift of prophesizing (Acts).

In fact, thousands if not millions of Christian women were martyed by the Romans and subject
to rape via beastality, burning and a woman drowned her 3 daughters and herself before the
Romans grabbed them for torture.

In fact, the first convert in Europe was a woman.

In fact, many if not most inmates in America's prisons never had a father to lead the
family and it's the break down of the American family.


From the fatherless generation. This is what God doesn't want happening to his church:

http://thefatherlessgeneration.wordp...om/statistics/

[darb72]

I have a colleague who *claims* to be a big time femi-nazi/bull-dyke/ubber-liberal type woman. Truth is, she's moderate just like 99% of people are; she just happens to lean a little to the left.

She and I have discussed this numerous times since I'm a conservative/christian/right-wing wacko. The major sticking point is that marriage is the union of man and woman before God. Now if we look at the marriage vows, "What God has brought together, let no man tear asunder", we see my favorite argument tool. A loophole. Like many, many, many, etc... other things, government has screwed this up. Man and woman wanna go get hitched, ride down to the court house for a civil union. Woman and woman wanna get together, ride down to the court house for a civil union. As a conservative I don't want the government telling me how I should live. Everybody else should have the same rights.

Strike the word marriage from legal use. That's fair for everyone.

Now for the original issue of this thread. If BA says something about it in an interview, that's fine. If he does something during the game to detract from the biggest sporting event of the year, yeah I have some problems.

[ActualSpamBot]

Minus the salty language in your opening, I agree wholeheartedly ( including your take on BA's campaign) and I'm about as liberal as one can get on the gay rights issue. Clearly this board has reached consensus, someone alert congress and let's just get this done and put to bed forever so we can focus on what matters: blaming each other for every other problem in the history of this country!

[RavenScallywag]

I agree with darb to a point...my sticking point is that legally, no one's marriage is recognized as "Catholic marriage", "Christian marriage", "Jewish marriage", "Muslim marriage", etc. It's just "married". So, by trying to squeeze in "well, Catholic/Christian marriage laws say..." that is going against the separation of church and state. Hell, my wife and I are married, but not religious. We did not have a religious ceremony. Can we still call that a marriage, since it didn't take place with a church's blessing?

So, either go all or none with that. Make it so it's defined by religion, ie a "Catholic marriage" is differently marked than a "Civil Marriage", or stop calling it married altogether in the eyes of the law and just call it "civil union" or whatever flavor it is.

Really, knowing government, the path of simplest action is to grant same sex couples the title "married" when it comes to any couple status, and not try to rewrite all sorts of codes and such. That's why any enactment of legislation needs to have a stipulation that no church will be FORCED to honor a same sex marriage if that church does not believe in it. There, you HAVE your religious protection without forcing it on others.

PS - As for BA and Birk, they have both acknowledged their opposing views...guess how much it affects them working together? ZERO! Message from the team is clear, they know they can't and won't tell their players to shut their mouth when it comes to issues that are passionate to them. Hell, Luke Scott was a birther and no one from the Orioles shut him up! They opted not to re-sign him, but that probably had most to do with his injury history.

[HoustonRaven]

I've had issues in the past as well with the man and woman language in the Bible as well so to that point I agreed with Darb for many years. Years go by and the more of a theist I've become, I've known the Bible to be a not always right guideline and certainly not a book to be taken word for word as truth.

But as I got to know many people in the gay community -- mainly friends in and around Fells Point -- it became clear real quick the need for them to be treated as equal.

I do, however still believe that the harsh language / rhetoric from either side is exactly the wrong way to go about educating folks. This shouldn't become an us against them type of issue for either side. It's too important. It hardens people and thus, nobody ever changes.

[StingerNLG]

I agree with you in theory, but you know several NON-FOOTBALL topics will be covered in Media Week... It's just the nature of the national media. I don't see BA going out of his way to steer an interview towards same sex marriage. I think he'll just choose to speak about it if/when someone asks. He and Chris Kluwe of the Vikings are WELL known for their outspoken support of same sex marriage, so I'm sure a good portion of the questions asked of BA will involve that.

Let's get some obvious out of the way...BA won't be commanding a crowd at media day. I like him, but he's not even top 10 on the popular list of Ravens. He's going to be a guy who will be making the rounds and a few radio stations/writers here and there will grab him for a quick interview. I'm sure that the ones who do will ask him about his noted views, which are news worthy to them because not many sports figures have come out for it as strongly as BA has.

He said this:

"Is there anything I can do for marriage equality or anti-bullying over the next couple of weeks to harness this Super Bowl media?" he wrote. He hit "send" on the email just before 4 a.m.

Sounds like he is going to push it to me.

[darb72]

Minus the salty language in your opening, I agree wholeheartedly ( including your take on BA's campaign) and I'm about as liberal as one can get on the gay rights issue. Clearly this board has reached consensus, someone alert congress and let's just get this done and put to bed forever so we can focus on what matters: blaming each other for every other problem in the history of this country!

Salty language is all hers. I learned a long time ago not to argue with that woman about what she wants to be called.

[RavenScallywag]

He said this:

"Is there anything I can do for marriage equality or anti-bullying over the next couple of weeks to harness this Super Bowl media?" he wrote. He hit "send" on the email just before 4 a.m.

Sounds like he is going to push it to me.

We'll see, but just a hunch, I don't think he does anything over the top. He later is mentioned saying his goal is to use the spotlight from WINNING a Super Bowl to advocate for those causes...

Also, it wasn't touched on, but what about anti-bullying? Do you or any of the other posters have a problem with him doing any of the same supposed "hype" for anti-bullying?

Because if that's okay, but same sex marriage isn't, isn't that a bit of a double standard? Just my thinking.

[StingerNLG]

We'll see, but just a hunch, I don't think he does anything over the top. He later is mentioned saying his goal is to use the spotlight from WINNING a Super Bowl to advocate for those causes...

Also, it wasn't touched on, but what about anti-bullying? Do you or any of the other posters have a problem with him doing any of the same supposed "hype" for anti-bullying?

Because if that's okay, but same sex marriage isn't, isn't that a bit of a double standard? Just my thinking.

Who do you know in favor of bullying? Its not a double standard in that sense because they aren't comparable issues.

That said I'd rather he say nothing and talk about football and the Super Bowl.

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[RavenScallywag]

What I meant by that is the initial argument by Everything_Raven (and the one you just mentioned) is "why are you bringing this non-football topic up during Super Bowl week?"

but, it's fairly clear also that Everything_Raven and others do not themselves support same sex marriage, so the question I posed was to see if their position on BA was mainly due to their own feelings on the issue, or discussing any non-football issue. You are right, there is no "pro-bullying" side, but it's still a non-football topic.

If you're going to have a problem with him bringing up "polarizing" topics, it would seem that you think Ravens players, in general, SHOULDN'T be vocal about those types of issues, PERIOD. If the issue is with him bringing up any non-football topics and making a big deal out of them, then I would assume if he made a big deal about anti-bullying, you'd also not be for it, because again, he'd be making a big focus of a non-football topic.

Just food for thought. Again, I'd have no problem with Matt Birk having an interview where he presents his views on keeping "traditional" marriage definitions. Even during Super Bowl week. "Championing" the issue is a subjective term, you really have no idea if he's talking about just making remarks on it or trying to do something outlandish.

[HoustonRaven]

I have no issue with BA using his free time in this manner.

A while back, Sirdowski posted something linking to a book called "Ideas Have Consequences". It's a philosophical read and one it's main premises is that we've become a society that does not like unsettling thoughts. Keep in mind, it was written in the 40's and even then he warned about this new desire for folks to seek out "facts" that reaffirm their own beliefs rather than being challenged or seeking out ideas they don't agree with.

I like the idea of people who push the idea envelope.

[Sirdowski]

I do, however still believe that the harsh language / rhetoric from either side is exactly the wrong way to go about educating folks. This shouldn't become an us against them type of issue for either side. It's too important. It hardens people and thus, nobody ever changes.

Well said. 100% agree.

I know in the past I came off as a staunch biblical orthodoxist, but being honest with myself with regards to issues such as this one and many others in science, has led me to explore a more dynamc approach to assesing my worldview and not simply settle for any explanation that offers static answers to a dynamic world. I am currently studying Process Theology and am finding it has some very satisfying and interesting answers to these questions.

I like the idea of people who push the idea envelope.

I agree. What really challenged me to change my way of thinking hit me when I was reading about process theology, and Alfred whitehead said, "the pure conservative is fighting aginst the essence of the universe."

[StingerNLG]

If you're going to have a problem with him bringing up "polarizing" topics, it would seem that you think Ravens players, in general, SHOULDN'T be vocal about those types of issues, PERIOD. If the issue is with him bringing up any non-football topics and making a big deal out of them, then I would assume if he made a big deal about anti-bullying, you'd also not be for it, because again, he'd be making a big focus of a non-football topic.

I think you are confusing the issue with the venue. I have no problem with BA having an opinion on this. And if the NFL wants to have a specific conference on issues, or if they want to do a show I don't have to watch where players can debate social issues, great.

The Super Bowl is not that place.

Just food for thought. Again, I'd have no problem with Matt Birk having an interview where he presents his views on keeping "traditional" marriage definitions. Even during Super Bowl week. "Championing" the issue is a subjective term, you really have no idea if he's talking about just making remarks on it or trying to do something outlandish.

Emailing someone right after AFCC and asking how he can harness the media at the Super Bowl sounds pretty straightforward to me.

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[RavenScallywag]

I think you are confusing the issue with the venue. I have no problem with BA having an opinion on this. And if the NFL wants to have a specific conference on issues, or if they want to do a show I don't have to watch where players can debate social issues, great.

The Super Bowl is not that place.

Okay, and that goes right to the point, you would be more upset with him doing ANYTHING non-football at the Super Bowl.

If BA causes a spectacle at Media Week, I will be right on him for doing it.

[StingerNLG]

Okay, and that goes right to the point, you would be more upset with him doing ANYTHING non-football at the Super Bowl.

If BA causes a spectacle at Media Week, I will be right on him for doing it.

More or less. Talk about the game. Talk about the Ravens. Talk about the 49'ers. I don't want my Super Bowl to be a PSA on politics, social issues, or anything like that. Football is a place where we can, and should be able to, get away from all that for a couple hours of a Sunday.

If BA wants to be on Meet the Press tomorrow, have at it! On NFL time, talk NFL Football.

[darb72]

More or less. Talk about the game. Talk about the Ravens. Talk about the 49'ers. I don't want my Super Bowl to be a PSA on politics, social issues, or anything like that. Football is a place where we can, and should be able to, get away from all that for a couple ours of a Sunday.

If BA wants to be on Meet the Press tomorrow, have at it! On NFL time, talk NFL Football.

Sting summed up my opinion on it quite nicely.

Football is not the place for political view points.

[festivus]

no you rather them think its ok to call people bigots because of their religion. and you would rather them read a forum were people will lie and say that they said something that was never said, to try and support their own argument.

Finally getting back after being away for a few days.

Well, let's see.

Here is a minority. You don't want the members of that minority to be treated the same as everyone else is treated. You don't want them to have access to the specific medical, legal, and bureaucratic benefits and privileges that derive from being "married."

That's all fact.

In my opinion, that also makes you a bigot.

Lamenting that marriage shouldn't have privileges x, y and z is a dodge, because those privileges are too numerous and too deeply rooted to go anywhere. That conversation is just changing the subject to something less important.

I do, however still believe that the harsh language / rhetoric from either side is exactly the wrong way to go about educating folks. This shouldn't become an us against them type of issue for either side. It's too important. It hardens people and thus, nobody ever changes.

HR, you said yourself that you only came to appreciate the stakes in this debate when you encountered members of the LGBT community around Fells Point.

I imagine you look back, as a heterosexual man, across the years of your life and you can't believe the things you used to think about homosexuals. I know I've come a long way since my youth.

I feel like I would have benefited, as a young man, if decent, smart people had been vocal about what was right. I feel like, if I was 18 again and a Ravens fan and a young man who didn't really know anyone who was gay and out, and I was reading this message board, I would really benefit from seeing people draw a line in the sand and be very clear about what was right.

I don't know if you're complaining about my tone, but if you are, understand I'm not trying to persuade ER. I've tried to persuade people like him before and I might as well be talking to a tire. He won't change his mind.

But there are people out there - fewer, because this is in the politics subforum - who may be reading these words and nodding along and feeling the dawn begin to break.

ASB is *exactly* right. I have been accused many times, here and elsewhere, of being intolerant of other people on this issue because of their religion. That's just silly. I don't care *what* their religion is, and I won't stoop to debating matters of faith because faith has nothing to do with it.

Some dude who lives across town from me, whatever his religion or absence thereof, has no business telling me who I should be able to marry.

And as to BA's comments, good for him for leveraging his very small amount of fame for this cause for the one moment in his career when the cameras and microphones are rolling. Others have spent their fame on far less worthy causes. It's easy enough to tune him out; he's small potatoes compared to all the stars around him. Don't like it? Don't listen.

I know this conversation makes people uncomfortable, including people who agree with me. But it's important to get it out there. Getting it out there and making people confront their own prejudices is how we make this right. Not being silent and pretending nothing is wrong.

[Everything_Ravens]

To be clear, no one believes that having faith makes you a bigot. Or even believing that a religious partnership is the exclusive domain of heterosexual couples.

Festivus and I, (if I can speak for him) are stating that a desire to impose that religious exclusivity to the secular concept of LEGAL marriage is a bigoted practice.

in myopinion, that also makes you a bigot.

Im not really sure why you have aligned yourself with this person in this discussion. I think that you are far more intelligent and from a secular view point you raise valid arguments. But i dont live or view my life secularly. So this is an exercise in futility if we are trying to come to an agreement as to wether gay marriage is right or wrong.

Now as for wether it is right or wrong for those of us that hold to Christian values to vote against it is a matter of personal opinion. i personally couldn't care less about voting to stop gay marriage. Could Not Care less! i dont agree with it but i am more concerned about the intents of a man's heart than anything else. Even if it was illegal these people would still have the same heart for it. Laws dont prohibit the hearts desire.

and as i said before i dont regard homosexuality to be any worst than any other activity deemed as sin.

[RavenScallywag]

So, I blinked and missed BA's commandeering of the media for his cause...

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap100...son-is-healthy

I know what he said in the email, but like I said before, I doubted he was going to make a spectacle out of it.