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  1. #337

    Re: Oh, geez, here it comes (dread)...



    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Thanks to the CBA, they couldn't up until this recent negotiation. And even now, they don't have a test.

    The league has been waiting a test for years now.
    The NFL is way behind MLB, Yet MLB gets way more flack.

    MLB is seen as being complicit in the HR steroid era (it revived the game from the negativity of the strike). And maybe they were. No doubt many a blind eye was turned.

    But because the NFL is dominant and #1, they don't want to do anything to rock the boat IMO.

    The inherent differences between the sports also plays a factor. A team can double/triple team Calvin Johnson and limit his effectiveness even if he is juiced up. You can't double team ARod at the plate. He has more chance to reap the rewards of PEDs by virtue of the 1 on 1 matchup.




  2. #338
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    Re: Oh, geez, here it comes (dread)...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Because they don't think it's banned probably.

    The list is so long and convoluted I can see mistakes being made.
    This is a possibility. I work for MLB and our employee handbook has 5 full pages of banned substances. That said, this deer antler shit isn't the same as dosing IGF-1.

    "A bottle contains around 180 sprays, and a typical dose is three sprays. Thus, a single dose of deer antler velvet contains between 50 and 84 nanograms of IGF-1. In order to mimic the research study that found IGF-1 to have similar benefits to growth hormone you would need to consume between 1,500,000 to 906,000 sprays PER DAY: thatís between 8,333 to 5,033 bottles per day."




  3. #339

    Re: Oh, geez, here it comes (dread)...

    My first thought was Manti Te'o. If they didn't line up all their ducks in a row before printing this story, right on the heels of the embarrassment from the ass kissing of Manti Te'o, it's a disgrace on top of a disgrace. I'm skeptical just because we're all now once bitten by SI; it's time to be twice shy.

    FWIW, I don't care if it works or not. That's not the story, as far as I'm concerned. And I use "story" in the most generic sense of the word.
    Festivus

    His definitions and arguments were so clear in his own mind that he was unable to understand how any reasonable person could honestly differ with him.




  4. #340

    Re: Oh, geez, here it comes (dread)...

    Quote Originally Posted by NJRaven View Post
    This is a possibility. I work for MLB and our employee handbook has 5 full pages of banned substances. That said, this deer antler shit isn't the same as dosing IGF-1.

    "A bottle contains around 180 sprays, and a typical dose is three sprays. Thus, a single dose of deer antler velvet contains between 50 and 84 nanograms of IGF-1. In order to mimic the research study that found IGF-1 to have similar benefits to growth hormone you would need to consume between 1,500,000 to 906,000 sprays PER DAY: that’s between 8,333 to 5,033 bottles per day."
    This is like our drinking water having trace amounts of aspirin, birth control, etc. that gets pissed out when not absorbed into the body.




  5. #341

    Re: Oh, geez, here it comes (dread)...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Thanks to the CBA, they couldn't up until this recent negotiation. And even now, they don't have a test.

    The league has been waiting a test for years now.
    Talking about the spray itself, not blood tests.




  6. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by alienrace View Post
    Talking about the spray itself, not blood tests.
    Don't they simply use USADA's findings?

    I don't recall the NFL ever doing their own commission. Could be wrong though.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  7. #343

    Re: Oh, geez, here it comes (dread)...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Don't they simply use USADA's findings?

    I don't recall the NFL ever doing their own commission. Could be wrong though.
    This - from the Hopkins guy:
    Nieves, who studied nutrition, food and exercise science at Florida State, is the first to extol the virtues of deer velvet, a supplement that has been used in China for thousands of years. His company mentions IGF-1 prominently in its marketing material but only because it is integral to the yearly re-growth of antlers, he said. By the time the harvested antlers are broken down and processed to be sold the substance is essentially an uncomplicated, “super-concentrated” and natural protein.

    “We registered our product with the FDA as a food product, it's that natural,” Nieves said. “It is just packed with nutrients.”
    http://www.baltimoresun.com/business...,7725655.story

    I'd suggest reading the article. This is why SI should have been more thorough.




  8. #344
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    Re: Oh, geez, here it comes (dread)...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    That's the legal standard, not the standard in the media. So are you on record now that Ben is not a rapist? Because he was never proven guilty.
    That is a poor analogy. The difference is not in the judgement but in the evidential quality of the allegations.

    In Ben's case, there was a reasonably credible accuser who contacted authorities and presented evidence. One can debate whether that evidence was substantial enough to proceed with a case, and IIRC the prosecutor decided it was not. That's fine, but it was clearly substantial enough to merit investigation and consideration.

    You're correct that in the judgement of the law, Ben is not a rapist. That doesn't mean the allegations were without merit. It means they were deemed not provable to a legal standard.

    In Ray's case there is a single accuser, not credible in the slightest, who, beyond saying "he did it", has presented no corroboration or other evidence whatsoever, not even circumstantial. It has not even been verified that the substance in question contains a banned substance in the first place. In short, the allegations are not merely short of legal standards, they are a sham.

    There are three distinct categories to consider, and you have mistakenly conflated the latter two:

    • Guilty: Proven guilty by due process.
    • Not guilty/not charged: A case existed but was deemed short of proof (e.g. Pig Ben).
    • No case at all: Deer Antler Juice Sold by an Ex-Stripper




  9. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by alienrace View Post
    This - from the Hopkins guy:


    http://www.baltimoresun.com/business...,7725655.story

    I'd suggest reading the article. This is why SI should have been more thorough.
    Ok.

    What does that have to do with your point and my question?

    You claimed the NFL should / does commission drug studies. The NFL doesn't commission studies that I'm aware of. They use data from USADA.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  10. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teavo View Post
    That is a poor analogy. The difference is not in the judgement but in the evidential quality of the allegations.

    In Ben's case, there was a reasonably credible accuser who contacted authorities and presented evidence. One can debate whether that evidence was substantial enough to proceed with a case, and IIRC the prosecutor decided it was not. That's fine, but it was clearly substantial enough to merit investigation and consideration.

    You're correct that in the judgement of the law, Ben is not a rapist. That doesn't mean the allegations were without merit. It means they were deemed not provable to a legal standard.

    In Ray's case there is a single accuser, not credible in the slightest, who, beyond saying "he did it", has presented no corroboration or other evidence whatsoever, not even circumstantial. It has not even been verified that the substance in question contains a banned substance in the first place. In short, the allegations are not merely short of legal standards, they are a sham.

    There are three distinct categories to consider, and you have mistakenly conflated the latter two:

    • Guilty: Proven guilty by due process.
    • Not guilty/not charged: A case existed but was deemed short of proof (e.g. Pig Ben).
    • No case at all: Deer Antler Juice Sold by an Ex-Stripper
    That's your opinion on the degree of the evidence and its supposed value.

    But the analogy within the context of my quote still stands.

    I can just easily say, as many Steelers fans like to, that the credibility of both accusers is very shaky.

    The point still remains both are circumstantial yet some fans are hell bent to say Ben is in fact a rapist while readily pointing out the circumstantial nature of Ray allegedly buying a PED.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  11. #347

    Re: Oh, geez, here it comes (dread)...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    The point still remains both are circumstantial yet some fans are hell bent to say Ben is in fact a rapist while readily pointing out the circumstantial nature of Ray allegedly buying a PED.
    But don't you see? That was different because he was a Steeler. When Ravens get accused of wrongdoing, we must apply every level of scrutiny.

    /s




  12. #348
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    Re: Oh, geez, here it comes (dread)...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    That's your opinion on the degree of the evidence and its supposed value.

    But the analogy within the context of my quote still stands.

    I can just easily say, as many Steelers fans like to, that the credibility of both accusers is very shaky.

    The point still remains both are circumstantial yet some fans are hell bent to say Ben is in fact a rapist while readily pointing out the circumstantial nature of Ray allegedly buying a PED.
    You are missing the point. Not all circumstantial evidence is created equal.

    Again, you are confusing quality of evidence with judgement which is why your analogy is poor.

    Fact, not opinion: The Georgia prosecutor thought the allegations in the Pig Ben case were worthy of further investigation. We know this because investigation occurred and was reported.

    Steelers fans can say what they like, but the above fact remains. The evidence was serious enough to merit official scrutiny.

    To my knowledge there has been no evidence presented in the deer antler issue that's even worthy of taking seriously. If there has been, please tell me what it is.




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