High Praise for Bernard Pierce

**Boulderraven** · 02-02-2013, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by pickles

Yeah, it's insane.

If Rice isn't a great back, I'd hate to see one.

Rice is a GOOD back, not great. Tied for 11th in YPC. He's not Peterson, Lynch or Spiller. Rice is a top 10 back, not a HOFer type.

**ActualSpamBot** · 02-02-2013, 02:45 PM

Lol. Tell me the nine other running backs who have been more productive than Ray since he entered the league.

Hell, tell me the five.

Rice is an elite talent. I can't believe this is even a discussion.

**Boulderraven** · 02-02-2013, 02:58 PM

It's a discussion because..Peirce is a good back as well. Any back that gets enough carries is going to amass 1200 yards. As far as "game breakers" with 8 in the box only Peterson, Charles, Johnson (again) and possible Spiller are Elite. The rest are basically interchangeable for the most part. Rice's career YPC isnt great, he is used much like Lydell Mitchell was an all-purpose back....very solid went to probowls, had contract dispute and traded for Joe Washington over $, but without Bert Jones and the Colts defense losing players the Colts declined. Heck, the rookie from Washington outperformed Rice this year a late rounder. RB's are overrated, nowadays because most teams use the pass to set up the run. Rice in the postseason hasnt been be all that great. Pierce has been better, Rice is really trying to hold on the ball to much rather than extend runs because of his postseason fumble woes. I dont blame him for that.

**bmorecareful** · 02-02-2013, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot

Lol. Tell me the nine other running backs who have been more productive than Ray since he entered the league.

Hell, tell me the five.

Rice is an elite talent. I can't believe this is even a discussion.

The highest Rice has ever ranked in YPC since 2009 has been 7th (in 2009) and he's been outside the top 15 every other year. Highest in rushing YPG has been 5th in 2011. I agree that Rice is an elite talent, but he's not in the top 5 or probably top 10 pure runners in the game right now. Rice IS the best running back in the league in the passing game, though.

The whole point of this discussion is to make the most out of our RB situation. Out of the limited sample size of 2012 Pierce appeared to be the better pure runner of the two, particularly between the tackles. Rice is far superior as a pass-catching and blocking back. I think the Ravens should continue to give Rice all the work in the passing game, all the goal-line and red zone carries, as well as giving him more carries on draws, toss plays, etc. Pierce should be the grinder between the tackles.

Part of this whole discussion should also center on the Ravens' blocking scheme. When they were a 100% man-blocking team in 2009 Rice looked like he could be one of the 2 or 3 best in the game. Ever since we've moved to more zone-blocking, Rice hasn't had that same burst and decisiveness. I don't honestly think Rice is a good fit for the ZBS, and if we went back to more man blocking concepts that might get Rice going better between the tackles as well.

**ActualSpamBot** · 02-02-2013, 03:10 PM

Trying to say that because Rice is only very good as a pure runner instead of great, without acknowledging that he is great as a receiver is totally missing the point.

In his 4 years as a starter Rice has amassed 7500 yards from scrimmage, including 2 seasons of over 2000 yards from scrimmage. That's absurd. No one not named Marshall Faulk has ever accomplished that feat twice in their careers and Ray is only entering his prime years. He's also never had a season where he amassed less than 100 yards from scrimmage per start. I don't think I could find another back with the kind of production NOT in the Hall of Fame if I tried.

Yes, there are guys who are better as pure runners. But playing halfback is not just about what you do after the handoff, it's about production and few players can hold a candle to Ray's.

The idea that you can swap 2 backs in and out to do two completely different things and not have defenses notice and key on defending those things is equally ludicrous.

**Boulderraven** · 02-02-2013, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot

Trying to say that because Rice is only very good as a pure runner instead of great, without acknowledging that he is great as a receiver is totally missing the point.

In his 4 years as a starter Rice has amassed 7500 yards from scrimmage, including 2 seasons of over 2000 yards from scrimmage. That's absurd. No one not named Marshall Faulk has ever accomplished that feat twice in their careers and Ray is only entering his prime years. He's also never had a season where he amassed less than 100 yards from scrimmage per start. I don't think I could find another back with the kind of production NOT in the Hall of Fame if I tried.

Yes, there are guys who are better as pure runners. But playing halfback is not just about what you do after the handoff, it's about production and few players can hold a candle to Ray's.

The idea that you can swap 2 backs in and out to do two completely different things and not have defenses notice and key on defending those things is equally ludicrous.

Because of use, and a checkdown passing attack basically. Also a 16 game schedule, not a 14 or 12 game schedule. I think Rice is "good" back, not "elite".
In the Ravens history they have had a good RB since 2000 every year, no matter who carries the ball. Only Jamals 2000 yard season with an 8 man box front stands out. Rice is good, but not Canton bound by any means. Pierce is a "better" runner/ his pass catching abilities are YTD. Peirce might be a "great" or good receiving back, he hasnt been used in that capacity yet so we dont know. It's like basketball teams, someone is going to average 15-20 points a game on a bad team, doesnt mean he is a "elite" player. Points like yards are going to happen when given opportunities. Peirce, IMO has better RB skills. Just my opinion, only based on what I've observed. Rice is used exactly like Lydell was if you are old enough to remember. Rice is quality, no doubt.

**Boulderraven** · 02-02-2013, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by bmorecareful

The highest Rice has ever ranked in YPC since 2009 has been 7th (in 2009) and he's been outside the top 15 every other year. Highest in rushing YPG has been 5th in 2011. I agree that Rice is an elite talent, but he's not in the top 5 or probably top 10 pure runners in the game right now. Rice IS the best running back in the league in the passing game, though.

The whole point of this discussion is to make the most out of our RB situation. Out of the limited sample size of 2012 Pierce appeared to be the better pure runner of the two, particularly between the tackles. Rice is far superior as a pass-catching and blocking back. I think the Ravens should continue to give Rice all the work in the passing game, all the goal-line and red zone carries, as well as giving him more carries on draws, toss plays, etc. Pierce should be the grinder between the tackles.

Part of this whole discussion should also center on the Ravens' blocking scheme. When they were a 100% man-blocking team in 2009 Rice looked like he could be one of the 2 or 3 best in the game. Ever since we've moved to more zone-blocking, Rice hasn't had that same burst and decisiveness. I don't honestly think Rice is a good fit for the ZBS, and if we went back to more man blocking concepts that might get Rice going better between the tackles as well.

I'd take CJ Spiller over Rice in the passing game. But he was a top 10 pick.

**pickles** · 02-02-2013, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by Boulderraven

I'd take CJ Spiller over Rice in the passing game. But he was a top 10 pick.

And why wouldn't you?

I mean the way he can't supplant Fred Jackson as a starter, and that career high of 43 receptions this year, just screams out better back than Ray Rice.

Of course Spiller is "elite." And Ray isn't.

**Paintballguy** · 02-02-2013, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by pickles

And why wouldn't you?

I mean the way he can't supplant Fred Jackson as a starter, and that career high of 43 receptions this year, just screams out better back than Ray Rice.

Of course Spiller is "elite." And Ray isn't.

Wow did you even watch CJ Spiller this year? The only reason he didn't start is their coach who by the way got fired. Anytime Spiller touched the ball, he was making big things happen.

From PFF

As if there was any doubt, C.J. Spiller was the most elusive running back in 2012. In fact, Spiller is the most elusive running back to have been given any significant number of carries in the past five seasons. Peterson led the league in forced missed tackles with 71, but Spiller notched 66 on 138 fewer touches. The rate at which he forced misses was ridiculous for somebody given as many carries as he was given. Yet Chan Gailey couldn’t find a way to give him more touches and Buffalo at times seemed to be actively scheming ways to keep the ball out of his hands.

Also...

Baltimore’s Bernard Pierce is another notable appearance inside the top five, with an ER score that tops that of Peterson in his limited number of touches.

Though the Ravens starting running back, Ray Rice, remains the feature back, and is a better all-around player, it’s not a stretch to say Bernard Pierce has been the team’s best pure runner. Getting stronger as the season has gone on, he has grown quietly into one of the team’s most productive weapons on offense. Coming onto the field for a few series per game, his ability to make the most of every carry has been key throughout the year.

With just seven receptions in the regular season, Pierce still forced four missed tackles, averaging 6.9 yards after the catch per reception. It was as a runner where he did most of his damage however, forcing 21 missed tackles from 108 carries on his way to a 532-yard rookie season. Adding to this, he averaged 3.48 yards after contact per carry, with all of this combing to give him an Elusive Rating of 75.7 — the third-best mark among all running backs.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...lusive-rating/

**pickles** · 02-02-2013, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by Paintballguy

Wow did you even watch CJ Spiller this year? The only reason he didn't start is their coach who by the way got fired. Anytime Spiller touched the ball, he was making big things happen.

From PFF

Also...

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...lusive-rating/

So Spiller's had half a season of great play?

Terrific.

I guess that negates the fact that Ray Rice has done it for 8 times as long.

BTW, I noticed even in the link provided, they concede that Rice is the better player than Pierce. Funny. How that's kinda my whole point.

**Paintballguy** · 02-02-2013, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by pickles

So Spiller's had half a season of great play?

Terrific.

I guess that negates the fact that Ray Rice has done it for 8 times as long.

BTW, I noticed even in the link provided, they concede that Rice is the better player than Pierce. Funny. How that's kinda my whole point.

Nowhere in my post did I say CJ Spiller was better than Rice. Don't attack me. Just putting the facts out there that Spiller has had an amazing year even when he didn't get as many touches as he should.

**AirFlacco** · 02-02-2013, 04:25 PM

The Packers won all those SBs and world titles because they had interchangeable parts - two of the best RBs in Jim Taylor
and Paul HOrning. When they went down Elijah Pitts came in. There was no beating them. Hell, Shula never beat them but
Weeb had the most success in the early 60s before he was fired. Even when Bart Starr went down, backup Zeke
Bratkowski always came in and beat us.

Ozzie built the Ravens with the same interchangeable parts with Rice and Pierce and even Anthony Allen backing them
up.

That's the way you build SB teams, not with just one part. It's the sum of all parts with one complimenting the other.
Just go back and read Will MOntgomery's quotes.

**jonboy79** · 02-02-2013, 04:26 PM

I'm going to have to agree with those that think it's laughable that Pierce is a better overall player then Ray Rice at this moment in time.

Pure Runner?? that might have some merit, but that isn't Rice's strength, but it's the rest of his game where there are few if any RB's in history that rival Ray Rice's non-handoff game.(Marshall Faulk is the only obvious one).