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Thread: Who to keep

  1. #61

    Re: Who to keep



    Quote Originally Posted by chicagoravensfan View Post
    No one though enough of Dickson to take him before the 3rd round in the year he was drafted. After 3 underwhelming seasons, why would that change? Original round tender for Dickson sounds perfect.
    I agree with your last sentence. Let me add, though, that a TE going in the Mid-3rd round (Denver's pick) is no sign at all of poor expectation. Each year, you might see 3 TEs taken in the 2nd round or earlier. A mid-3rd round TE is a highly thought of player.




  2. #62

    Re: Who to keep

    Quote Originally Posted by Boulderraven View Post
    You think the STEELERS might be the WORST team in the NFL!!!! They were number 1 in total defense, missed the playoffs by a last second FG. Lost HALF thier oline to injury, lost IKE TAYLOR thier best CB to a broken foot and still went 8-8. Not to mention Big Ben who was never the same after injury. Steeler have fallen into a pattern where they have a down season every 3 years like you could follow on a watch. You are being naive, they will lose some guys like all teams. But replace them, only reason Victorian was playing was both CB's were hurt. If you want to count out the Steelers as the worst team, go ahead. I have been around way to long and know better. As long as the defense has LeBeau and they have Big Ben watch out.
    This. It is an absolute screamer of a joke to suggest that the Steelers might be even CLOSE to one of the worst teams in the NFL. Sure, they are facing cap hell--but so are we. Sure, they have age issues--but so do plenty of teams. They have plenty of young prospects that should step up, they have a franchise QB (albeit one on the decline), and they have plenty of pieces around him and on the defensive side of the ball.

    They'll be in playoff contention next year. I'm certainly not suggesting they should be Super Bowl favorites, not even close, but they're one of the 6 or 7 best teams in the AFC IMO and that means they're alive for a playoff spot. Ravens, Broncos, Patriots, Texans, Steelers, Colts, Bengals... the only question is in what order do you place the last 3.




  3. #63

    Re: Who to keep

    Quote Originally Posted by Boulderraven View Post
    You think the STEELERS might be the WORST team in the NFL!!!! They were number 1 in total defense, missed the playoffs by a last second FG. Lost HALF thier oline to injury, lost IKE TAYLOR thier best CB to a broken foot and still went 8-8. Not to mention Big Ben who was never the same after injury. Steeler have fallen into a pattern where they have a down season every 3 years like you could follow on a watch. You are being naive, they will lose some guys like all teams. But replace them, only reason Victorian was playing was both CB's were hurt. If you want to count out the Steelers as the worst team, go ahead. I have been around way to long and know better. As long as the defense has LeBeau and they have Big Ben watch out.
    I've spent hours and hours analyzing their salary cap. It's, without any debate, the worst salary cap position of any team in NFL history. The Steelers of next year will look nothing like the Steelers of the past 5-6 years. If they do, that's even worse because they are hanging on to aging players longer than they should.

    Ever think the reason why they were so injured last year was because they keep on overpaying their aging veterans when they should be looking for younger, cheaper replacements? If guys like Roethlisberger, Clark, Taylor, Polamalu can't consistently stay healthy in their late 20s, what's to make you think they are suddenly going to find good health in their early 30s?

    Ever think that the reason they had to turn to a guy like Josh Victorian was because they had zilcho money available to get anyone better?

    The reason they were so mediocre last year was because they had way too much money tied up into older players that they couldn't stay healthy and couldn't afford decent depth players.

    Their cap is even worse this year, so I would expect the bottom to drop out from under them soon. I see a 3-13 season ahead for them.




  4. #64

    Re: Who to keep

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    He's simply a big slow WR with questionable hands.).
    I'm with you on the hands part, but he is far from slow.




  5. #65

    Re: Who to keep

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeDaniel View Post
    He certainly caught fine on Sunday, didn't he? He caught well enough to catch 54 balls last year, including two of the nicest catches of our season in the opener against PIT and an extremely tough catch for a TD in Seattle.

    I'm not saying he has good hands. It's not like this is Ricky Dudley reincarnated, though. He's not nearly as bad as you are making him out to be. As a blocker, he's piss poor. No argument. He has value as a receiver for sure.

    What would trading him for a 6th rounder accomplish? That 6th rounder might not even make the team. We already have 11 picks. By my roster breakdown, there is only room for 6-8 rookies on our 2013 roster, so an extra sixth rounder, aside from being trade bait to move up in the draft, really does nothing for us. We are going to have at least 3-4 of our draft picks that will either be cut or IRed next year.

    If we go into 2013 with Pitta, low-cost veteran (Bajema clone), and a guy like Michael Williams, then we face a tough position if Pitta would get hurt. We are paying Flacco probably around $115 million over 6 years. It wouldn't make sense to pay all that money to keep him and then trade away one of his weapons for next to nothing. Keep in mind that cutting/trading Dickson ($1.32 2013 cap #) for a veteran-minimum type free agent (roughly $850) really only saves us $450k. For that amount, why not keep the higher-upside player?

    Every offseason we have these conversations (not you specifically, but in general). We talk about how certain players are easily expendable, and by week 11 of the following season, that supposedly expendable player now holds a tangible value and we are darned glad that we kept them.
    We face a tough position given the possibility of injury at EVERY position, at least on paper, apart from perhaps RB and CB. Injury insurance is a luxury that few teams have at more than a few positions.

    And I say "on paper" because who expected the CB group to play this well given injuries to Webb and Smith? Even at the ILB position we got good contributions out of McClellan and Bynes, both undrafted players. Who expected us to survive the Suggs injury? It was difficult but we had to make it work and simply throwing money at the position to go 2 deep everywhere was not and is not an option.

    Pitta has been pretty durable thus far apart from the hand injury in the preseason (freak incident). I don't think Dickson offers enough marginal value as a pass catcher to turn down a trade for a draft pick, even a low pick and even in a year where we already have so many; draft picks are the most valuable liquid asset in football. Dickson is a guy who has no role on this team and no future with this team. If the Ravens CAN move on, they should. It's a shame, because he seems to be a great guy and involved in the community, but it is what it is.




  6. #66

    Re: Who to keep

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    This. It is an absolute screamer of a joke to suggest that the Steelers might be even CLOSE to one of the worst teams in the NFL. Sure, they are facing cap hell--but so are we. Sure, they have age issues--but so do plenty of teams. .
    This is factually incorrect. The Ravens are about $30-35 million lower in 2013 salary cap commitments than the Steelers. The Steelers are in a portion of salary cap hell never discovered before. The Ravens are tight against the cap, but are not forced to cut anyone if they didn't want to (not to say they won't). The Steelers are either going to have to cut 5-6 players or restructure them in such a way that it will continue to cripple their salary cap for years to come.

    Placing the Steelers and Ravens in the same salary cap boat is like saying the Jags and the Ravens are in the same talent boat. It's ludicrous.

    I would encourage you to read my post from last night to see how bad things are for them. Their 2013 salary cap is about 80% eaten up by 10 players, 8 of whom are over the age of 30. Their hands are so badly tied that they will have no room to do anything, other than watch all their semi-decent aging veterans move on elsewhere.

    The Ravens, once they trim the roster of Birk and Bobbie Williams, will only have 3 players in their 30s under contract for next year (Koch- turns 31 in a few months, Suggs- turns 31 in Oct, and Boldin-turns 33 in Oct). The Bengals are even younger than we are and the Browns are one of the youngest teams in the league. The Steelers better hope for perfect health to even reach 7-8 wins. In my opinion, at this point of their journey into 2013, they'll be lucky to win 5-6 games unless they can find a way to work some legendary salary cap trimming magic.
    Also, when you




  7. #67

    Re: Who to keep

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeDaniel View Post
    I've spent hours and hours analyzing their salary cap. It's, without any debate, the worst salary cap position of any team in NFL history. The Steelers of next year will look nothing like the Steelers of the past 5-6 years. If they do, that's even worse because they are hanging on to aging players longer than they should.

    Ever think the reason why they were so injured last year was because they keep on overpaying their aging veterans when they should be looking for younger, cheaper replacements? If guys like Roethlisberger, Clark, Taylor, Polamalu can't consistently stay healthy in their late 20s, what's to make you think they are suddenly going to find good health in their early 30s?

    Ever think that the reason they had to turn to a guy like Josh Victorian was because they had zilcho money available to get anyone better?

    The reason they were so mediocre last year was because they had way too much money tied up into older players that they couldn't stay healthy and couldn't afford decent depth players.

    Their cap is even worse this year, so I would expect the bottom to drop out from under them soon. I see a 3-13 season ahead for them.
    That is your opinion, that's fine. But, I never count out the Pittsburgh Steelers. Even with all those injuries they still managed to FINISH NUMBER 1 in total defense. Even with Big Ben, a collection of journeymen RB's, beat up Oline, and without Antonio Brown for a long stretch they missed the playoffs by 1 game and almost won the division if we didnt beat NYG and they lost on a stupid last second INT by Big Ben to Cincy that set up a game winning FG. Heck, they beat us Once almost twice without Ben. 3-13 is a crazy prediction. Thier is a very small line between winning and losing. 3 years ago we could be AFCC champs if Boldin doesnt drop a ball in playoffs in the EZ at Pittsburgh, or last year we could of been AFCchamps if Evans doesnt drop a ball vs NE. Most of these games between the top teams are decided by ONE play. I expect changes in Pittsburgh, but I also expect them to be a challenge. I dont know how old you are, but I've been around a while to know that LeBeau can really coach defense EVERY YEAR, the names may change but the results are pretty much the same.




  8. #68

    Re: Who to keep

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeDaniel View Post
    I'm with you on the hands part, but he is far from slow.

    Fast for a TE, borderline slow for a WR, and when you can't block at all, that's basically what you are.




  9. #69

    Re: Who to keep

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    Pitta has been pretty durable thus far apart from the hand injury in the preseason (freak incident). I don't think Dickson offers enough marginal value as a pass catcher to turn down a trade for a draft pick, even a low pick and even in a year where we already have so many; draft picks are the most valuable liquid asset in football. Dickson is a guy who has no role on this team and no future with this team. If the Ravens CAN move on, they should. It's a shame, because he seems to be a great guy and involved in the community, but it is what it is.
    Well, trading Dickson certainly isn't an option that I disregarded. I just don't think trading him for a 6th rounder gets us very far. I think we have far less room for our incoming rookie class on our 53 man roster than a lot of people realize. Our 6th rounder might be a guy we have to IR/cut/practice squad anyways. Now if we use that 6th rounder to trade up, that's a different point altogether. Although, it does seem like we aren't getting much value out of him to merely use him as trade up pick.

    My argument isn't with trading Dickson. It's more with the idea that he would somehow be non-tendered, which is simply not going to happen.




  10. #70

    Re: Who to keep

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeDaniel View Post
    This is factually incorrect. The Ravens are about $30-35 million lower in 2013 salary cap commitments than the Steelers. The Steelers are in a portion of salary cap hell never discovered before. The Ravens are tight against the cap, but are not forced to cut anyone if they didn't want to (not to say they won't). The Steelers are either going to have to cut 5-6 players or restructure them in such a way that it will continue to cripple their salary cap for years to come.

    Placing the Steelers and Ravens in the same salary cap boat is like saying the Jags and the Ravens are in the same talent boat. It's ludicrous.

    I would encourage you to read my post from last night to see how bad things are for them. Their 2013 salary cap is about 80% eaten up by 10 players, 8 of whom are over the age of 30. Their hands are so badly tied that they will have no room to do anything, other than watch all their semi-decent aging veterans move on elsewhere.

    The Ravens, once they trim the roster of Birk and Bobbie Williams, will only have 3 players in their 30s under contract for next year (Koch- turns 31 in a few months, Suggs- turns 31 in Oct, and Boldin-turns 33 in Oct). The Bengals are even younger than we are and the Browns are one of the youngest teams in the league. The Steelers better hope for perfect health to even reach 7-8 wins. In my opinion, at this point of their journey into 2013, they'll be lucky to win 5-6 games unless they can find a way to work some legendary salary cap trimming magic.
    Also, when you
    Birk might be back, he said weeks ago he wanted to come back and felt great, the best he felt in years. If he played like he did this year I want him back frankly. He is an unsung Raven IMO. He is still one the better half of the Centers in the NFL and at a bargain. To say he wont be back is a way premature.




  11. #71

    Re: Who to keep

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeDaniel View Post
    This is factually incorrect. The Ravens are about $30-35 million lower in 2013 salary cap commitments than the Steelers. The Steelers are in a portion of salary cap hell never discovered before. The Ravens are tight against the cap, but are not forced to cut anyone if they didn't want to (not to say they won't). The Steelers are either going to have to cut 5-6 players or restructure them in such a way that it will continue to cripple their salary cap for years to come.

    Placing the Steelers and Ravens in the same salary cap boat is like saying the Jags and the Ravens are in the same talent boat. It's ludicrous.

    I would encourage you to read my post from last night to see how bad things are for them. Their 2013 salary cap is about 80% eaten up by 10 players, 8 of whom are over the age of 30. Their hands are so badly tied that they will have no room to do anything, other than watch all their semi-decent aging veterans move on elsewhere.

    The Ravens, once they trim the roster of Birk and Bobbie Williams, will only have 3 players in their 30s under contract for next year (Koch- turns 31 in a few months, Suggs- turns 31 in Oct, and Boldin-turns 33 in Oct). The Bengals are even younger than we are and the Browns are one of the youngest teams in the league. The Steelers better hope for perfect health to even reach 7-8 wins. In my opinion, at this point of their journey into 2013, they'll be lucky to win 5-6 games unless they can find a way to work some legendary salary cap trimming magic.
    Also, when you
    Where in the world are you getting your numbers from? The Steelers are only 10.8m over the 2013 cap from every source I can find (ESPN, CBSSports, PFT). Those numbers might not be rock-solid, but they don't even have the worst cap situation in the league in 2013, much less "of all time" (the Saints, Panthers, Cowboys, and Jets are all higher over the cap than Pittsburgh is.)

    Obviously the Steelers and Ravens are not in SIMILAR degrees of cap hell, not right now, but that will change quick, fast, and in a damn hurry if the Ravens have to put the franchise tag on Flacco. The non-exclusive tag puts them about 9m over the cap, the exclusive tag about 15m over the cap... check Ravor's latest numbers if you aren't on the same page (or provide your own if you have an argument other than "I said so.")

    The point is, both teams must get crafty to deal with their cap issues for 2013 and beyond. That applies to the Ravens even in the most miraculous scenario possible--Flacco signing a long-term deal by March 4th. His probable cap number would eat up all of our 2013 space and more. The release of Birk, Williams, and Leach would obviously ease that and provide space but the Steelers could make the same argument about Hampton, Colon, and others.

    No one can know the future, but the Steelers injury situation will likely regress to the mean next year, which means it will be significantly better. Even if they get a little worse from unloading veterans it will be made up by improved health and young players stepping up. They added a LOT of talent in the 2012 draft and historically have always drafted well. It's sheer wishful thinking to assume that they'll just fade away and die into being a Jacksonville, Oakland, etc. next year.




  12. #72

    Re: Who to keep

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    Obviously the Steelers and Ravens are not in SIMILAR degrees of cap hell, not right now, but that will change quick, fast, and in a damn hurry if the Ravens have to put the franchise tag on Flacco. The non-exclusive tag puts them about 9m over the cap, the exclusive tag about 15m over the cap... check Ravor's latest numbers if you aren't on the same page (or provide your own if you have an argument other than "I said so.")

    .
    I keep a spreadsheet just as Ravor does. He might know a bit more about the cap than I do, given that he's been doing it longer, but math is math. If the Ravens have to franchise Flacco, they are in bad shape, but I don't think there is any value for either party to do that, so I expect a deal. Again, assuming the Ravens get Flacco into a contract with a 2013 cap # around $9.5, that puts them roughly $2-3 million under the cap without having to release anyone, except for Birk and Williams. That factors in rookie cap upgrades and operates under the assumption that Jones/Boldin/McClain/Leach are all back at their current figures.

    Obviously, we will be doing some cutting/restructuring, so our position really isn't that bad. My best guess is that once our cuts/restructures are all done, we will have $9-12 million to go after our free agents (Kruger/Ellerbe/Reed/McKInnie) or attract some from outside the franchise.




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