What should Flacco's target for "elitism" be?

**lowrider** · 02-06-2013, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by GOTA

It's about getting paid. The only reason this came up was because Flacco was nearing free agency. Once he's signed I doubt he'll care what labels anyone uses for him.

Exactly. $15-$20 mil/5+ year deals makes you elite. Joe is, or will be soon, considered elite. When I try to put definition to the word "elite" it always comes down to who are the top paid QB's in the league. 9 times out of 10 they are paid well because they have played consistently well in big games. Joe has been money in big games for the most part. If you think about it this Lombardi trophy might have been the 2nd in 2 years if not for a dropped pass or a missed FG..

**StingerNLG** · 02-06-2013, 03:42 PM

He improved almost all his numbers from his previous year.

He has set numerous NFL records and tied one for a playoff QB. Right now only ONE current other QB has a chance at Flacco's record of a playoff win in each year of their first 5. Russell Wilson.

Not just won the SuperBowl, but was MVP.

Set a record for wins by a QB in first 5 years. Very doubtful anyone is touching that anytime soon.

And if you want to know if Joe is elite, ask yourself this question. It's 1:30 to go on the opponents 20, 2 time outs, down by 4. Do you put the ball in Joe's hands with the confidence he will score the game winning touchdown?

Joe Flacco is elite already.

**Paintballguy** · 02-06-2013, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by StingerNLG

And if you want to know if Joe is elite, ask yourself this question. It's 1:30 to go on the opponents 20, 2 time outs, down by 4. Do you put the ball in Joe's hands with the confidence he will score the game winning touchdown?

1:30? That's an eternity for Joe.

**CincyCat** · 02-06-2013, 06:03 PM

This--->

Originally Posted by StingerNLG

He improved almost all his numbers from his previous year.

He has set numerous NFL records and tied one for a playoff QB. Right now only ONE current other QB has a chance at Flacco's record of a playoff win in each year of their first 5. Russell Wilson.

Not just won the SuperBowl, but was MVP.

Set a record for wins by a QB in first 5 years. Very doubtful anyone is touching that anytime soon.

And if you want to know if Joe is elite, ask yourself this question. It's 1:30 to go on the opponents 20, 2 time outs, down by 4. Do you put the ball in Joe's hands with the confidence he will score the game winning touchdown?

Joe Flacco is elite already.

**Strange Bru** · 02-06-2013, 06:57 PM

As long as he leads the Ravens to the playoffs and wins another Super Bowl or two, I don't care if he ever becomes elite.

**wickedsolo** · 02-06-2013, 07:03 PM

Frankly, because so few QB's ever win a SB, wouldnt that, at the very least, put you in an elite group?

I know folks will use the Trent Dilfer comparison to that comment and you'd be right, but still...I be Dan Marino or Fran Tarkenton would trade all of their stats for Dilfer's ring.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Forum Runner

**duffybr** · 02-06-2013, 08:39 PM

When people stop posting a new thread daily about whether he is elite or not

Originally Posted by Beau Petard

There are a lot of conversations about who's the "best" QB in the league, who's "better" than this one or that, who are the "top 3/5/7/10/etc.", and so on, and so on, and....

I'm not in the camp that believes that Flacco is #1, or elite, or many of the other plaudits I see bestowed on this QB or that. What impresses me is that Flacco has been as "successful" as he has, as a rookie and ongoing during his career. And I'll say this -- give me Trent Dilfer at QB and a Super Bowl victory, versus Brady/Manning(s)/RGIII/Newton/Wilson/Ryan/Rodgers/etc. leading the offense and sucking hind tit.

But all that as a lead-in, my question to all is, What do you deem as the gold standard for Flacco to be unreservedly considered as a true "best" QB? Or, what does Flacco need to do (stats, or games won, or playoffs/SB appearances, more seasons of winning, whatever) to be mentioned without a lot of friction in the same breath as the Bradys/Manning(s)/RGIIIs/Newtons/Wilsons/Ryans/Rodgers/Randolph Scott/etc.?

Qunatify what Flacco must deliver.

**Real Fan Dan** · 02-06-2013, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by Mista T

Super Bowl MVP, 2012 playoffs 11 TDs with zero Interceptions + multiple clutch passes, 9-4 lifetime in the playoffs, 93 straight regular season + playoff games (Iron Man) = elite already. I could give a shit about what the Brady/Manning jock-sniffers like Bayless and Boomer say.

I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. The dude just tied Joe Montana for an NFL playoff record for throwing TD's. He has more playoff wins than Manning in his whole career. I really can't believe this conversation is gong on with so many of you.

The "Target" to KEEP, not MAKE Flacco elite, is to maintain a high quality supporting cast, primarily the Offensive line. There is a direct correlation with the Ravens finally getting the right combo on the O line and Joe's success. Keep the protection above average and Joe will make 300 yard games more commonplace than not, thereby maintaining his "elite" status.

Jeff Saturday and company, plus some speedy recievers and intuitive play calling has let Manning display his talents effectively all these years. It will be the same with Joe.

**Beau Petard** · 02-06-2013, 09:41 PM

Sorry duf, this is the first and only thread on this topic I've posted. Has someone else asked for opinions on quantifying Flacco's performance as opposed to just general, "He's elite", or "better", or #1, or "top 10", or some other completely subjective nonsense? If there is such a thread, please give us a link.

Thanks...

**rla20cpa** · 02-06-2013, 09:44 PM

He needs the approval of both Skip Bayless and Steeler fans.

**Beau Petard** · 02-06-2013, 09:47 PM

rla-

I think ol' Skipper would need prior approval of his network!

BTW, how's Ron? Do you see him much lately? I haven't seen him posting here, but please give him my "Hey's!"

**FadeToBlack** · 02-06-2013, 10:20 PM

The way I evaluate a QB is to assume they all played for the same team.

Simulate the QB on a team with no pass protection. Simulate that same QB with perfect protection. And what you'll find is that some of the QBs who rank highest under one scenario are actually worse in a different scenario.

For example, would you rather have prime Joe Montana or prime Michael Vick if you had no blocking? Probably Vick. But with perfect or even adequate blocking, Montana wins handily.

Then you look at regular season vs. post-season. One season is longer, gives you a bigger sample size and is the more popular metric for stats. The other is where only the best teams pariticipate, and for the largest stakes, which is lose and you're out.

You begin to fuse these different elements of the quarterback position together into one single unit, which you use to determine "elite."

By these metrics, Flacco is elite, but perhaps not 'the most elite.' He's decent during the regular season (but very volatile!), contrast that with an immaculate record of performance in the postseason, he's not the most mobile QB, but by contrast he chucks the deep ball with the best of 'em. He is VERY composed, which I have to believe is a calming force over his teammates in moments of duress.

I think had he not put on this incredible playoff run of 11 TDs/0 INTs, there's no way I'd pegged him elite. But he did. And he is.

**darb72** · 02-07-2013, 12:54 AM

For me, I just go by feeling.

Sting said, " It's 1:30 to go on the opponents 20, 2 time outs, down by 4. Do you put the ball in Joe's hands with the confidence he will score the game winning touchdown?"

At the start of that goal-line stand to win the Superbowl, I knew the game was ours because Joe would be getting the ball back with time on the clock. That's the kind of QB he is. Dilfer also won a Superbowl with the Ravens, but I had no faith in him when he dropped back to pass. On third-and-whatever, I now assume we'll be picking it up because Joe will make the correct read and a good throw.

I don't care to much about his stats. He probably won't be a first round pick in fantasy football because of the type of team we are. Rice and Pierce are going to run the heck out of the ball, and Joe'll make a few great throws down field. He doesn't have to put up 35 points a game because most teams aren't going to put up 30 on us.

**jaydee414** · 02-07-2013, 05:38 AM

Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn

I just want long term consistency.

This. With the modifier of, "...at a superior level."

Joe's playoff stats speak for themselves, and maybe this is the beginning of the run of games/seasons that will FIRMLY establish Flacco in that "top tier" category. For me, there is a significant difference between "elite" and "best right now". The sample size is critical in making the determination.
Is it the body of work for a career? For a two season stretch? For a six game run?
QB's get hot at times, and even the pedestrian, (see Fitzpatrick, R. or Brunell, M.), can look like world beaters for a time. Do it over an extended period consistently, then talk "elite". (Man, I hate that word)

**rla20cpa** · 02-07-2013, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Beau Petard

rla-

I think ol' Skipper would need prior approval of his network!

BTW, how's Ron? Do you see him much lately? I haven't seen him posting here, but please give him my "Hey's!"

We moved to FL in June 2012 so I haven't seen Ron since the 2011 season. He still posts over on Sunspot

P.S. My current neighbor is a Steeler fan vacationing here for 3 months. This is what he sees when he wonders out on his balcony. Maybe this shortens his stay.

**Bigfish** · 02-07-2013, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by StingerNLG

It's 1:30 to go on the opponents 20, 2 time outs, down by 4. Do you put the ball in Joe's hands with the confidence he will score the game winning touchdown?

It was 31-27 before the safety. A touchdown and extra point by the 49ers at that point would have made it 34-31, that's a 3 point deficit. I was thinking about that before we got the stop in the end zone. I think Joe gets us a chance at a field goal and overtime, a touchdown is possible.

In the 5 years Joe has been in the playoffs he's improved with this year being the best. It's not hard to see there's more upside to Joe. Playoff success is the cornerstone of Joe's accomplishments and the criteria to judging his eliteness.

**bacchys** · 02-07-2013, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by Bigfish

In the 5 years Joe has been in the playoffs he's improved with this year being the best. It's not hard to see there's more upside to Joe. Playoff success is the cornerstone of Joe's accomplishments and the criteria to judging his eliteness.

I agree. Elway's stats weren't eye-popping. Anyone who watched him play, OTOH, knew he was one of the best QB's in an era when there were several great ones. Montana and Marino were better QB's overall, imo, but I don't think either one could have led The Drive or The Drive II. I don't think either one could have come from 13 points down in Kansas City with barely two minutes on the clock as I saw him do in '92. Elway was elite, and in some aspects he was the best of his time. But just looking at the numbers doesn't tell you that.