Which was the best, the 2000 or the 2012 SB run?

[Uli2001]

2000 because it was such an improbable run. 2012 was the Ravens 5th straight year in the playoffs, no big surprise they went to the big dance.

That was also my wife's point. In 2000 they came out of really nowhere to win it. In 2012 they were already NFL Champions, already had that pedigree. But other than that, this year's run was really as improbable or more than in 2000, given how the opponents stacked up in the playoffs.

Gota, I think you ended up agreeing with me, not disagreeing. The 2000 D could not be as dominating now, because of the rules. So under today's rules, a 2012 Ravens - 2000 Ravens matchup could well be won by the 2012 Ravens (with a vastly superior offense, and an inferior, but not vastly inferior, defense, and about equivalent special teams).

[FadeToBlack]

I heard some people talking about it on the radio and they basically described my feeling.

This one was a LOT better IMHO.

I love that 2000 team as I don't think we'll ever see the level of swag and one side of the ball dominating like that again...watching that defense shut offenses down and then hearing the opposing offense try and claim that we weren't that good after getting their ass kicked was incredibly satisfying.

But that team was full of "hired guns", guys that came from other cities/teams and spent just a few years here...Goose, Sam Adams, Rod, Sharpe, Dilfer, a lot of our best players were here for just a blink of an eye. That team never had any playoff experience so they didn't really have to go through much adversity on the field prior to 2000.

This one seems a lot more personal, almost all of our best players have spent their careers here...Joe, Ray Rice, Yanda, Torrey, Pitta, Suggs, Reed, Ray Lewis, Ellerbe, Webb, Ngata...they all know nothing but the Baltimore Ravens and we only know them as homegrown Ravens. The only top player who wasn't from here is Boldin, and I don't think there was ever a player more meant to be a Raven than him.

So we have all this homegrown talent, all these pro bowl level guys who have suffered multiple...failures to be frank...in the playoffs for each of the last 4 years, and every loss except one was excruciating, and heartbreaking losses where when we needed someone to make a play, none of our players could. They all went through the frustrations and disappointments...the questions on if we'd ever make it to and win the big show with our guys. We worried about wasting the prime of 2 first ballot HOF's in Ray and Reed...wondered if Ray would ever get that second one he was holding on for and if Ed would ever get one that frankly, I and I believe most of us felt he deserved.

The 2000 team never went through any of that. It was a perfect storm...a category 5 hurricane that kind of came out of nowhere, destroyed everything in it's path, and then was torn apart shortly after it's damage was done.

Also, don't forget that while we had a very good, passionate fanbase in 2000, it in noway compares to what we have now...that outpouring of love and appreciation on Tuesday confirmed that.

This post is "elite."

[FadeToBlack]

I enjoyed the 2012 run much more as I was not nearly as interested in the Ravens in 2000. But I did watch both seasons.

The 2000 Ravens are characterized by 2 things, IMO: 1) the greatest defense ever, while the 2012 Ravens have no "greatest ever" quality anywhere, 2) being the first Ravens team to win it.

Ultimately, if the Ravens franchise had to be without ONE of these Super Bowl trophies, I believe your only argument for excluding the 2000 team and keeping the 2012 team is to pick the 2012 team for being much more recent and relevant. Otherwise, the Ravens franchise benefits much more for having the greatest defense of all time. You could argue this 2012 team is really no different in the lens of hindsight than ANY single Super Bowl winning team. The 2000 team has an historic component to them. Only we the Ravens fans understand the journey, the adversity the players RavenInWoodlawn mentioned is not something the annals of NFL history will remember as vividly.

[Beerracuda]

Ok, I'd have to say 2012, based entirely on the way I felt throughout the season.

In 2000, I still had confidence in the team, despite going 5 straight games without a TD. Our defense was THAT dominant. And, after beating Tennessee during the regular season, I no longer feared them in the playoffs.

This year, by the time we lost to Washington, I had lost all confidence in this team. Firing Cam Cameron the very next day made me much more hopeful, but moreso towards future seasons. I didn't think they could shake off Cam enough to make a big enough difference to win the SB. Kicking the Giants' asses in Week 16 added to my confidence, but only enough to believe we'd beat Indianapolis in Round 1. I thought we'd lose to Denver by at least 10-15 points. That win alone made me think we had a decent chance to beat the Pats in the AFCCG. After beating Denver and New England in their houses, against the top QBs in the league, I was thoroughly convinced we'd beat SF in the SB. That is, until the 3rd quarter.

The Super Bowl is kind of a microcosm of the season to me. I was loaded with confidence in the beginning of the season and the game, lost some of that confidence along the way, and feared disaster towards the end, only to be saved by a miracle at the very end. When Ray Rice fumbled that ball, allowing SF to pull within 5 points, I really thought the game was lost, especially the way SF was moving the ball. When SF had 1st and goal with 3 minutes to play, I thought it was a foregone conclusion they would score a TD there. I was just hoping for another Flacco miracle to win the game. Surprise: a goal-line stand by the D!! Totally unexpected, and totally miraculous!

I also think that so many of the disappointments of the post-season in recent years had soured me to thinking this season would also end in disappointment. In 2000, we had no previous playoff experience, so I fully expected us to win each time we took the field.

Finally, it also helps that this was the year for revenge. Beating NE in the season, Pitt again, knocking off the Colts in the playoffs, and then knocking out the guy who used to kill us with the Colts, followed by getting our revenge on Brady. What a year! It will be REALLY hard to top this one!

[alienrace]

Both championship runs hold a special place in my heart. Both had remarkable aspects to them, and in both cases, it seemed many people picked against us during the playoffs. There are so many similarities between the two runs, it's eerie.

For me, the 2000 team was like "oooh, piece of candy!". I was just happy they went to the playoffs. It was our first time there. Then they won the expected game, then the unexpected game. After that win over the Titans, I started smelling championship, and I wanted it...bad. Back then, my wife and I had only been dating a few months, and we didn't watch the game together as she had to work, and I watched it with a couple of long-time friends, drinking beer and eating pizza. When the Ravens went up 17-0, we knew it was over...then it wasn't...then it was again. The rest of the game was sort of a relaxed, coronation of sorts.

2012 was a different animal. The team had been rebuilt, and had been building towards a championship for years. We should have won it in 2006 but didn't. We should have won it in 2010 and 2011, but didn't. Those bitter disappointments, and the way the media treated the Ravens and it's players, particularly Flacco, seemed to rebuild something else - a huge chip on mine, and every other Ravens fan's shoulder. You could see this team building, but the failures of 2010 and 2011 seemed to be looming as maybe our best shots for a ring, as the injuries and age piled up on defense. Meanwhile the offense was picking up the slack, something that had been gradually building since 2008. My wife, now of nearly 10 years, had become a fan and we watched all of the games from 2001 on together, except for a couple when I had to go out of town. It was so cool watching her get more into the games each year. Being able to share the excitement, and emotional roller coaster ride of this playoff run with her made it that more special. Watching players like Flacco and Suggs, who had to deal with the idiots on ESPN constantly putting them down, or the team down, get the last laugh was special.

I have to go with 2012 for a number of reasons. As much as we got to stick it in the face of the naysayers in 2000/2001, this year was the ultimate.

[Uli2001]

It is also possible that we are still too close to the 2012 win to be able to pass unbiased judgement, meaning that we are biased towards the 2012 win. But OTOH will passage of time diminish in any way this 2012 win? If anything, it might augment it.

[Boulderraven]

For me 2001 was, it actually cried after they beat Oakland. My first NFL championship I couldn't believe we lost the Colts and won a title many years later and I was younger of course.

[GaTechRavens]

I feel like picking one is a disservice to the other. I can't decide, and I don't think I ever want to.

[GOTA]

That was also my wife's point. In 2000 they came out of really nowhere to win it. In 2012 they were already NFL Champions, already had that pedigree. But other than that, this year's run was really as improbable or more than in 2000, given how the opponents stacked up in the playoffs.

Gota, I think you ended up agreeing with me, not disagreeing. The 2000 D could not be as dominating now, because of the rules. So under today's rules, a 2012 Ravens - 2000 Ravens matchup could well be won by the 2012 Ravens (with a vastly superior offense, and an inferior, but not vastly inferior, defense, and about equivalent special teams).

Sorry but the 2012 team is a vastly inferior defense to the 2000 team. Obviously though I agree that the the 2012 offense is light years in front of the 2000 offense. I just don't think you can compare teams by saying they would play under a certain set of rules. Each team would play under the rules of their time. In that situation the 2012 would have a lot of trouble get more than 1 offensive touchdown and a couple of field goals.

Now days I see more luck involved then there used to be. I miss the NFL we had for most of my life where a team could dominate to the point where you were absolutely sure they were going to win. That was the 2000 team and it's it's more than just being the first time that makes it more satisfying in my mind. It's the complete dominance they showed against the other teams of their era that's makes them more special in my mind that this team.

[Purple Maniac]

My only thing would be if the 2000 defense loss key starters like 2012. Would they win ?

[ActualSpamBot]

The thing people forget about that 2000 defense is that we were never really challenged by an elite QB. The closest thing to one we faced was Mark Brunell and in one game he torched us and in the other he was absolutely spanked.

In my mind that game would come down to whether Joe could hold up against that ludicrous four man pass rush to get the ball past the linebackers.

To me it's a closer game than some people here expect, but I also think it would be a higher scoring game than they expect too.

[Uli2001]

The thing people forget about that 2000 defense is that we were never really challenged by an elite QB. The closest thing to one we faced was Mark Brunell and in one game he torched us and in the other he was absolutely spanked.

Interesting point. That was a kind of a down time for great QBs in the league. It was just after the retirement of Elway and Marino, and before Manning came into his own and Brees, Brady started their careers. The top QBs of the time were the likes of McNair, Brunel, Richie Gannon (!), Kerry Collins (!!), and, get this, Elvis Grbac (!!!).

But again, the rules of today are much more friendly to prolific QB play.

[JohnBKistler]

KVV put out a tweet on this the other day...many of the responses he got back were along the lines of:

The 2000 SB was about revenge: At the NFL for snubbing Baltimore in the expansion process, at Indianapolis for moving the Colts, at the national media in general that gave 100X more publicity to the plight of the Cleveland fans than the old Baltimore Colts fans, the same media that never gave the Ravens a chance at making the playoffs, and wrote them off during every single playoff game when they did...you had to live through it to appreciate the outright scorn that was directed at Ray Lewis, Billick (who gladly spurred it on) and the "thuggish" Ravens that year...you had members in the national media that were blatantly rooting against the Ravens. And because they rarely played on national TV, and social media was in its infancy....the media and public by-and-large had no clue how dominating was the Ravens defense...and Billick perfectly stated it, "They don't know what is coming..." And when it did, it was sweet revenge.

The 2012 SB team was...to quote Harbaugh - and yes, it's corny - was about love. Although the 2000 team had a few homegrown Ravens players (mainly on the defense, and Ogden and Lewis), many key players were free agents (Siragusa, Woodson, Sharpe), or had ties to the Browns (Stover and Burnett). This year's team was truly "ours"...and it was truly joyous to see Reed get his ring, Suggs get his ring, Flacco, Rice, Torrey Smith, etc. mature and develop into championship caliber players...Tucker performing on the big stage as a rookie, etc....and a special teams coach from the Eagles lead them to the title.

I am not sure which one was better....but I thought the distinction fit.

[LukeDaniel]

Don't forget that this is also the season of the 4th-and-29 play. That was a sign of things to come, if only people would see it.

Gota, this was not originally a debate of which team would win if facing each other, but I will bite. Do you mean playing under 2000 or 2012 rules? Do you realize that the 2000 D would be less dominant playing under current rules? That's one of the reasons such a dominant defense will never be seen again, by the way. I think this would be a very interesting match-up. Both teams played with the same determination, same team of destiny strength. This game would have been decided in the final minutes, or in OT, as each team refused to lose.

That is a fantastic point, Uli. I referenced it in my original post, but let's go back to the Sharper horsecollar that forced 4th down and led to the Del Greco/Washington/Mitchell play. A horsecollar tackle was the only way Sharper gets McNair down in that position. If that's 2013, he either lets him get the first or takes the half-the-distance-to-the-goal personal foul. The Titans might get 7 instead of 0 in that spot if we are operating under 2000/01 rules.

Siragusa's shoulder dislocating tackle of Gannon certainly would have received a personal foul now too.

The game was different back then. That's not to diminish that 2000 defense, but a lot of the type of tackling/hard hitting that made them so feared/dominating is no longer legal today.

[LukeDaniel]

2000 because it was such an improbable run. 2012 was the Ravens 5th straight year in the playoffs, no big surprise they went to the big dance.

I don't know, man. I think you are in a slim minority feeling that way.

I was far more surprised that the 2012 team, which bumbled its way down the stretch, made it so far. Keep in mind that the 2000 team won their last 7 of the regular season I believe. Heading into that playoffs, you expected them to make some noise. You knew that their only obstacle was TENN, a team we had beaten on the road only a few weeks earlier. You had to put the Raven chances of reaching the Super Bowl at 30-40%.

This year, I put our chances at reaching New Orleans at less than 10%. Denver looked unbeatable and smoked us in our own house 4 weeks earlier. Other than the blind optimism that we inherently possess as fans who believe in our team, there was no reason to think we could even compete with Denver, let alone beat them.

[LukeDaniel]

Excellent conversation, folks. Top class analysis.

Let me add one more. In 2000, we were sort of irrelevant, if that makes sense. I would imagine that there were a lot of moderate football fans nationwide who at some point in that season said "Oh yea, they have a team back in Baltimore now". I think a lot of the football nation was ambivalent about us. We weren't really that universally hated.

Scroll ahead 12 years and we are probably the most disliked franchise in the nation when you factor in our small geographic fanbase compared to all the cities/areas where we are hated. I would imagine the Pats/Steelers/Cowboys have even more haters that we do, but they also have a much larger base of support in terms of their number of nationwide fans.

In 2000, when we won, I would imagine a lot of casual fans nationwide thought "man, those Ravens are pretty impressive stomping the Raiders and the Giants". In 2012, the consensus that I get up here in PA (where there is a mishmash of team loyalties) from everyone non-Ravens that I know is more along the lines of "I can't f***ing believe that those f***ing ratbirds lucked their way into another f***ing Super Bowl". The hatred and irritation directed towards the Ravens this year is far stronger, making the win all the sweeter.

[JohnBKistler]

Excellent conversation, folks. Top class analysis.

Let me add one more. In 2000, we were sort of irrelevant, if that makes sense. I would imagine that there were a lot of moderate football fans nationwide who at some point in that season said "Oh yea, they have a team back in Baltimore now". I think a lot of the football nation was ambivalent about us. We weren't really that universally hated.

Scroll ahead 12 years and we are probably the most disliked franchise in the nation when you factor in our small geographic fanbase compared to all the cities/areas where we are hated. I would imagine the Pats/Steelers/Cowboys have even more haters that we do, but they also have a much larger base of support in terms of their number of nationwide fans.

In 2000, when we won, I would imagine a lot of casual fans nationwide thought "man, those Ravens are pretty impressive stomping the Raiders and the Giants". In 2012, the consensus that I get up here in PA (where there is a mishmash of team loyalties) from everyone non-Ravens that I know is more along the lines of "I can't f***ing believe that those f***ing ratbirds lucked their way into another f***ing Super Bowl". The hatred and irritation directed towards the Ravens this year is far stronger, making the win all the sweeter.

I have to respectively...but totally...disagree.

You make a good point about the irrelevancy of the Ravens in general at the start of the 2000 season...but Ray Lewis was not irrelevant...and between his murder trial, which many members of the media and most fans assumed (in some case outright reported) that he had gotten away with murder...and the brashness of Shannon Sharpe...and the outspokenness of Billick (CLE: "The NFL does not want us to win this game" and TEN: "Titans are the best team? Not today")...things were at a fever pitch when their plane landed in Tampa Bay and Billick proceeded to tell the national media that they are "not qualified" to judge Ray Lewis...that sent them over the edge (I believe some even got up and walked out of the press conference)...I would suspect easily that 95% of the media were rooting against the Ravens that year. There was an ESPN writer that, for years afterward, refused to go to the Ravens training facility to cover them because of Billick's press conference. Recall that afterwards (for the only time), the Super Bowl MVP did not go to Disney World, nor did the Ravens open up at home the following year on MNF (since moved to the Thursday opening game).

This year...yeah, there was some animosity, but I got the sense it was either (a) general stuff with conference rivals, or (b) some tiredness of Ray's "preaching", for lack of a better word. I guarantee you that the majority of the country was rooting for us against the Patriots. The consensus I have gotten from other fans since Sunday...and I work with people from all over the country...has been sincere congratulations on winning what, to them, was one of the most exciting Super Bowls in recent memory. (I personally found it to be near-torture in the second half...but was very happy at the end).

[bt12483]

Awesome thread. I've been thinking about this myself.

Obviously 2000 is special because it was our first Raven's title, and because of the record setting defense. But as others have mentioned, the team was more of a hodgepodge of FAs and journeymen. As such, there wasn't as much attachment to the individual players. We all knew Trent was nothing special. We all knew Sharpe was likely a rental.

This 2012 team we have almost completely drafted, and have grown with and seen mature. We saw Flacco and Rice grow together. We've seen some heartbreaking losses, but also glimpses of greatness. We've seen Flacco and Pitta form a bond. We've seen Q, a born Raven, play the WR position like he was on Defense. We've seen local boy Torrey give us the deep threat we needed for so long. And we've also seen HoFers Lewis and Reed wind down their careers. We finally got over the Manning hump, exercised our demons vs. the Colts and the new golden boy, and continued to show NE they aren't God's gift to the NFL.

I have to go with 2012. I never thought something would replace the 1st title. But for some reason, it feels better the second time around. Only 11 teams have 2 or more rings. Much more rare than winning one. I believe Michael Jordan once said anyone can win a championship once, but to do it again is more special. Obviously Ray was the only one to experience 2 rings given the 12 year gap, but that just solidifies his football legacy even more.

I have to go with 2012. The adversity and crazy events, the ascension of our Joe Flacco, the last ride, brothers in the SB...I just have to go with 2012. I'm not religious at all, but I truly feel "blessed" to have experienced this twice and be able to compare.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

I'll take the 2000 Defense with the 2012 Offense for $500, Alex.

In all honesty though, and trying to split the baby, I guess I loved the overall story of 2000 best, but I enjoyed the actual playoff run in 2012 the most.

2000 was our first, and you know they say you'll never forget your first. We all know about that team's defense, and it arguably was the greatest defense to ever take the field in NFL history. The team had never been to the playoffs before, never even had a winning season before, had only been in existance for 5 seasons, and yet I've never remembered a more focused team than that one. That team had winning on its mind and it didn't let anything distract it. (I remember trying to channel that type of attitude in my first year of law school that immediately followed Super Bowl 35, and it actually worked to a good deal of success.) Brian Billick arguably wasn't as good of a coach as John Harbaugh is, but I loved they way he motivated them that year. Plus there was a true sense of redemption about that team. The wounds from the 12 year NFL exodus in Baltimore was still pretty fresh. Cleveland had only been back in the league for two years I believe, and you still heard a lot of griping about the so-called "stolen" team. And Baltimore and Art Modell got to thumb it to them by winning it all that year, and forcing Paul Tagliabue to hand us the Lombardi that night in Tampa. And then you had Ray Lewis, who just months earlier had experienced the darkest days of his life, and channelling that into arguably the best season ever by a defensive player. So 2000 was very sweet indeed. The way the team came out of nowhere can only be matched in my mind by last year's improbable Orioles season.

But the playoff run in 2000-01 was so-so. Other than the tense game in Tennessee, the postseason was not all that nervewrecking. Super Bowl 35 actually felt less like a game and more like a coronation. And we got to sit back and relish that game with its result never really much in doubt. Which in a way was cool, but not necessarily all that memorable.

The 2012 team, as others had mentioned, was coming off the heels of four straight previous playoff appearances. We were all expecting the team to be good, the only question was how good. And in the first half of the regular season, I knew we had a potential Super Bowl team on our hands. It's only when our offense went stagnant in the second half of the regular season that I started to question them. (As an aside, one could argue that the game in Super Bowl 47 was something of a microcosim of the entire season--started dominantly, then faltered, then improbably finished strong at the very end.)

But damn if the 2012 team didn't ever give us some legendary plays that we will never forget as Ravens fans. Hey Diddle Diddle for starters. And then the Flacco Fling, F-Bomb or whatever it will end up being known as. And finally the four down, goal line stance at the end of Super Bowl 47. I'll always remember where I was when I saw Jacoby Jones haul in Joe Flacco's 70 yard bomb. I'll always remember how tense I was during those 4 downs, standing a foot in front of the TV, my heart pounding out of my chest. (It was almost dreamlike--I remember that torturous timeout between the third and fourth downs and seeing that Paul Rudd/Seth Rogan commercial that seemed to just go on forever--I had no idea what they were trying to sell or even what they were saying, all I knew was that I wanted it over as soon as possible so that we could get back to the game.) And in the end, I'm actually glad that Super Bowl 47 ended up a squeaker and not a laugher, because it helped prove the team all the more.

And there was still a sense of redemption in the 2012 team. The previous year's AFC Championship hurt. It really hurt. And that wrong seemed to right itself in the Denver game. Lee Evan's failure to hold onto an easy pass from Joe? Erased by Jacoby grabbing that 70 yard miracle pass by Joe. Billy Cundiff missing a chip shot? Erased by Tucker's nailing a 47 yarder into the wind.

But like I have two kids and I love them both equally despite them being very different, I'll love 2000 and 2012 equally as well for very different reasons.

[Mista T]

2000 because it was such an improbable run. 2012 was the Ravens 5th straight year in the playoffs, no big surprise they went to the big dance.

What he said!

Only a few die-hards here could foresee the 2000 Ravens as a team of destiny, based on 1999's deceiving 8-8 record. Along the way in '99, our defense matured into one of the NFL's best, e.g. holding Brunell & the mighty Jaguars to just 6 points. Tony Banks to Quadry Ismail was every bit an air show as Flacco to Torrey Smith. Beating the shit out of the SB-bound Titans and the Steelers. But the national media didn't see our team as anything more,as Vegas had us at 100:1 for the SB and national media had us pegged for a 4th place division finish ahead of the Ohios.

One of the funniest ways the national media got exposed was issuing statements that the winner of Ravens-Titans would go the the SB, yet after the Ravens won, the same writers recanted. And all the attacks on Dilfer overlooked that he played a safe game as directed by Bilick, with only one interception in all four playoff games.